Residential Boat Condemned

[Gary Peacock]

Agreed that is why it is so important to have an independant surveyor to check the boat out. As for checking the boat oneself, yes I have a lot of knowledge about boats, but would never have picked up the undersize gas pipe supplying the combi boiler and oven. This could have potential lethal consequences. My surveyor did though. I am now glad I didnt part with the 67k and pulled out of the sale. The RCD is usefull as a check list for an independant surveyor, not as a document of quality as issued by the vendor.

Is there a list of recognised surveyors. I picked mine out of Waterways world. Maybe its time to have an independant body that can oversee these surveys.

 

If self certification for RCD Cat D boats was abolished and it was made compulsory for a Notifiable Body to be involved like is the legal requirement for Cat C through to A boats the problem would be largely solved.

 

I am going to make even more enemies by saying that but it's true!

 

It would maybe cost a few thousand pounds more and that cost is obviously going to be passed onto the customer but compared to near £30K to put a £60K boat right it would be money well spent.

 

The one problem I do for see is the impact it would have on the DIY boat market where it would make life very difficult. (Exactly the same thing happened in the Kit car market a few years ago.)

[Rob@BSSOffice]

My boat was bought in June and the BSS certificate was new in February. The electrics have been condemed by three independent people - one and inspector, one a boat fitter, and one a professional.

 

They shouldn't have passed. Although a certificate is a useful guidline, it doesn't really tell you whether it represents a level of safety.

 

Notwithstanding the healthy cynicism about ‘inspections, inspectors and inspection reports’ here, there are three key facts that I hope are useful for this latest debate.

 

1) the BSS and the RCD are different. The Essential safety Requirements of the Recreation Craft Regulations (the UK implementation of the RCD) go beyond the BSS requirements, for example, the RCRs cover hull stability and integrity, the RCD now (v. soon) also covers noise emissions. There are other areas where the ESRs are more stringent than the BSS requirements such as fuel-filler internal diameter.

Thus having a report offering professional opinion that the boat complies with the RCD should be better than having a BSS examination report which is not appropriate for ratifying a Declaration of Conformity with the RCD and is not required for registration/licensing purposes as most navigation authorities will currently accept a DoC for the first four years.

 

2) BSS examiners are accountable and can be held to account. They should apply the BSS examination, which for private boats is detailed in the 2nd edition of the Guide, accurately and consistently.

 

3) If your boat has had a BSS examination and you subsequently suspect that it should not have passed, such as the example here from our honourable friend Bones, then use the Guide to see if that part of the system is covered in the examination (eg the checks on electrics is very limited).

If the item should have been checked and the check was either not applied correctly or was not applied, then please write to the BSS manager, Graham Watts, with full details of who, what, where, when and supply photos if appropriate and practicable.

 

And in regard to buying a boat, I agree with John inasmuch as the bottom line is ‘buyer beware’ and be well armed with information, advice and expertise on-hand. Some may choose professional expertise and some may have no other option, other than to engage a professional surveyor. However even a surveyor’s fee usually represents a tiny percentage of the cost of any new narrowboat or barge.

Regards

Rob @ BSS Office

[Bones]

Notwithstanding the healthy cynicism about ‘inspections, inspectors and inspection reports’ here, there are three key facts that I hope are useful for this latest debate.

 

1) the BSS and the RCD are different. The Essential safety Requirements of the Recreation Craft Regulations (the UK implementation of the RCD) go beyond the BSS requirements, for example, the RCRs cover hull stability and integrity, the RCD now (v. soon) also covers noise emissions. There are other areas where the ESRs are more stringent than the BSS requirements such as fuel-filler internal diameter.

Thus having a report offering professional opinion that the boat complies with the RCD should be better than having a BSS examination report which is not appropriate for ratifying a Declaration of Conformity with the RCD and is not required for registration/licensing purposes as most navigation authorities will currently accept a DoC for the first four years.

 

2) BSS examiners are accountable and can be held to account. They should apply the BSS examination, which for private boats is detailed in the 2nd edition of the Guide, accurately and consistently.

 

3) If your boat has had a BSS examination and you subsequently suspect that it should not have passed, such as the example here from our honourable friend Bones, then use the Guide to see if that part of the system is covered in the examination (eg the checks on electrics is very limited).

If the item should have been checked and the check was either not applied correctly or was not applied, then please write to the BSS manager, Graham Watts, with full details of who, what, where, when and supply photos if appropriate and practicable.

 

And in regard to buying a boat, I agree with John inasmuch as the bottom line is ‘buyer beware’ and be well armed with information, advice and expertise on-hand. Some may choose professional expertise and some may have no other option, other than to engage a professional surveyor. However even a surveyor’s fee usually represents a tiny percentage of the cost of any new narrowboat or barge.

Regards

Rob @ BSS Office

 

thanks for that - and the link, its really helpful.

[DHutch]

1) the BSs and the RCD are different. The Essential safety Requirements of the Recreation Craft Regulations (the UK implementation of the RCD) go beyond the BSS requirements, for example, the RCRs cover hull stability and integrity, the RCD now (v. soon) also covers noise emissions. There are other areas where the ESRs are more stringent than the BSS requirements such as fuel-filler internal diameter.

ESR, RCR, ?

Edited December 6, 2005 by dhutch

[Gary Peacock]

ESR, RCD, ?

 

Tecno babble Daniel it's the same thing.

 

ESR Essential Safety Requirements the safety element of the bigger RCD.

[anhar]

There is some confusion going on in this thread between new and s/h boats. My earlier point was about the voluntary presentation of a BSSC on a new boat that some suppliers are making, which is not a requirement but provides additional comfort to the buyer.

 

All new boats have to comply with the RCD, but having a voluntary BSSC is on top of that. I don't see why some readers have criticised this, I can't see that it is anything other than additional protection for the new boat buyer. I'm not saying that this is a one hundred percent foolproof feature, of course it is not, but for those builders/suppliers that do decide to provide a BSSC on their new boats, then this can only be a good thing, primarily because it is (probably) an outside inspection rather than the self certified RCD.

 

None of this means by the way that those new boat builders/suppliers who don't provide BSSCs are, for that reason alone, necessarily inferior to those who do. But speaking as one who is in the process of locating their first boat, I am a little more impressed by those providing voluntary BSSCs and just don't believe that these certificates are valueless on new boats as some have implied. Doesn't mean that I would refuse to buy new without a BSSC because of all the other precautions one takes, like talking to existing owners, but the presence of a BSSC on a new boat is one factor to take into account in my view.

 

S/h is an entirely different matter of course. Here a survey is essential, virtually everyone would agree there, as well as an up to date a BSSC as possible.

 

regards

Steve

[DHutch]

Tecno babble Daniel, it's the same thing.

lol, ok.

[iteldoo4me]

It was really very interesting reading about this saga with an un named boat builder,or bodger,as I too had an,and am still having massive probs with my new sailaway,built for me by BOATS they made a real big hash of my narrowboat,with a list of 28 items at fault,from leaking integral tank,leaking skin tank,and poorly designed hull,not to mention the leak through the roof,which I only found out about last weekend when I tracked the source of the water on my bed!

I do believe there should be stringent laws laid down,to prevent ,or at least to protect those of us who spend an awfull lot of money on an intended dream,and get ripped off.I have arranged to have a full survey done on the boat,which I need despite having a certificate of compliance,(so that I can take this company to court) which is worth nothing at all,I am preparing my case for the small claims court,as I have had to have outside boat builders come to rectify the shabby workmanship to my boat,BOATS refused to acknowledge my letters.

I would welcome any suggestions to try to enforce this,any ideas?

 

To prevent any possible implications to the site builders name removed.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Bernie

[ChrisPy]

 

But speaking as one who is in the process of locating their first boat, I am a little more impressed by those providing voluntary BSSCs and just don't believe that these certificates are valueless on new boats as some have implied.

 

Adds an extra cost, and I don't believe that all builders will necessarily ensure a full inspection is done and matters are rectified. I have an image of a less than honest inspector thinking - I've seen one, I've seen them all..... and issuing the certificate unseen. After all, he who pays the piper ...........

 

It might be a different matter if the customer requires a BSS as part of the purchase contract - and attends to witness the inspection and the agreement to fix any defects. But if the boat is not in commission even that may not rule out the possibility of a leaking skin tank, water tank, roof, 'poorly designed hull' (whatever that is), as mentioned in the previous.

 

I may be doing a disservice to most BSS inspectors, but I am naturally sceptical of the quality industry. For instance I had a bad experiences with Bureau Veritas inspectors (French version of Lloyds) who signed off test certificates on a batch of 48" diameter valves costing $3million without witnessing the tests. I visited the works and required a leak test. They all failed. The works admitted that they kept a file of certificates as they manufactured the valves, and once a month the inspector visited the office (not the works) and signed them off 'because we have a good relationship with them and we are the best company in the field'. .....OK, they were French.

 

When we complete the documentation for a pipeline we are very aware that there may be (are?) quality inspectors making up certificates at the end of the job to fill the gaps in the files. Our job is to catch them.

Edited December 8, 2005 by chris polley

[dor]

I think that if you are going to accept the extra cost of a survey, whether by a boat surveyor or a BSS one, I would engage a surveyor of MY choice, and ensure I was present at the inspection. And also be well versed in what is to be expected so that the right questions can be asked.

 

Otherwise, I don't believe the survey is worth the cost of the piece of paper, as history has demonstrated.

[Guest]

It was really very interesting reading about this saga with an un named boat builder,or bodger,as I too had an,and am still having massive probs with my new sailaway,built for me by BOATS they made a real big hash of my narrowboat,with a list of 28 items at fault,from leaking integral tank,leaking skin tank,and poorly designed hull,not to mention the leak through the roof,which I only found out about last weekend when I tracked the source of the water on my bed!

I do believe there should be stringent laws laid down,to prevent ,or at least to protect those of us who spend an awfull lot of money on an intended dream,and get ripped off.I have arranged to have a full survey done on the boat,which I need despite having a certificate of compliance,(so that I can take this company to court) which is worth nothing at all,I am preparing my case for the small claims court,as I have had to have outside boat builders come to rectify the shabby workmanship to my boat,BOATS refused to acknowledge my letters.

I would welcome any suggestions to try to enforce this,any ideas?

 

I am sorry to hear of your problems with this builder. We had a leak in the roof on our NB (Stirling) and it was repaired within twenty four hours of reporting it (a tiny pinhole where the weld had stopped and restarted). Can BMF or someone not help you?

 

edited again to delete builder's name

Edited December 8, 2005 by Guest

[John Wood]

I am sorry to hear of your problems with this builder. We had a leak in the roof on our NB (Stirling) and it was repaired within twenty four hours of reporting it (a tiny pinhole where the weld had stopped and restarted). Can BMF or someone not help you?

 

You were lucky the pinhole was in the roof, and not below the waterline!!!!

[Gary Peacock]

I am sorry to hear of your problems with this builder. We had a leak in the roof on our NB (Stirling) and it was repaired within twenty four hours of reporting it (a tiny pinhole where the weld had stopped and restarted). Can BMF or someone not help you?

 

edited again to delete builder's name

 

The BMF and it's poorer cousin the CBA would be able to offer some assistance provided the builder was a member.

 

Some builders are members others aren't the choice to be or not be a member is really down to how the builder views them.

Some feel membership and the support of the industry representatives help make the job easier, others object to 3rd parties meddling with their business.

[Gary Peacock]

Well a bit of good news at last!

 

John and family are back on the boat and out of the tent today, the boat is now in has good has it's ever going to be.

 

We did a lot of the work but John himself put in hundreds of hours work himself to keep the costs down. Internally it now looks just like a new boat, when it is repainted in the summer it should look a lot better all round.

 

And I suppose that really winds up the story the family lost their life savings ended up living in a tent for months and the powers that be turned a blind eye to the builder responsible. Well I suppose that's what we should expect living in Mr Blair's "Wonderland" isn't it?

 

When the next boat they built fails it's BSS it will probably soon be tent time for that family too!

 

Any way enough moaning after all it's Christmas so here's a few pictures of the finished boat so you can see the transformation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keep an eye out for the March addition of Canal & Rivers for a feature on this boat and maybe others.

[Guest]

Nice to hear that these folk have a home again, and a Happy Christmas to them. Let us hope that the new year brings them good luck. I can't wish the same for the original builders of the boat though.

[lymmranger]

Gary,

 

Thanks for keeping us informed

 

Lets hope you are wrong....

 

The best ending to this story would be certain personages swinging from a knotted rope attached to a tall tree!!!!

 

Merry Christmas

[Gary Peacock]

John who owns the boat asked me to worn people that the company concerned are advertising in the back of Waterways World this month.

 

So you have been warned.

 

 

Maybe they might have learned to do the job properly by now?

 

This is how they used to do it HERE

Edited November 6, 2006 by Gary Peacock

[blackrose]

Those electrics look a bit more organised than the last time I saw them!

Edited November 6, 2006 by blackrose

[Duchess Omnium]

Well, we can all find out who built it if we want, but I am a little surprised that the builder was not named long before. It cannot be libellous to say that X built Y boat, assuming that he did build it! That is a simple fact, and as others have pointed out the truth is an absolute defense under English libel law.

 

If we say he is a bad builder then that is a different matter.

 

I also think that if someone wanted to sue, saying effectively I won't name any names but the Bad Builder is advertising on the back page of the following magazine doesn't really cover you. You might as well have said what was so and been done with it.

[Chertsey]

Well, we can all find out who built it if we want, but I am a little surprised that the builder was not named long before. It cannot be libellous to say that X built Y boat, assuming that he did build it! That is a simple fact, and as others have pointed out the truth is an absolute defense under English libel law.

 

If we say he is a bad builder then that is a different matter.

 

I also think that if someone wanted to sue, saying effectively I won't name any names but the Bad Builder is advertising on the back page of the following magazine doesn't really cover you. You might as well have said what was so and been done with it.

 

He said 'in the back' not 'on the back page' - now that might be libellous. Was that the November or the December issue Gary?

[Gary Peacock]

He said 'in the back' not 'on the back page' - now that might be libellous. Was that the November or the December issue Gary?

 

December!

 

But John got the wrong magazine it's actually in Canal Boat & Inland Waterways! (I should have looked first, apologies to Waterways World who now claim to be very careful about whose adverts they accept!)

[Lesd]

Can someone who has brought the mag PM me and let me who's add is on or near the back page. Its shme we cant all be warned by simply naming names. I dont buy or have access to these magazines but would like to know who not to be buying from. Thanks in advance if anyone has the mag and can take the time

Les

[Travis]

Well done Gary, looks like a first class job you and your team have done.

 

I see you have used Mastervolt components in the electrical department, were these your choice or the boat owners? How do you rate them?

 

I have had very good experience with Mastervolt recently and wonder if it was just a flash in the pan (excuse the pun)

 

Regards Andy.

[Gary Peacock]

Well done Gary, looks like a first class job you and your team have done.

 

I see you have used Mastervolt components in the electrical department, were these your choice or the boat owners? How do you rate them?

 

I have had very good experience with Mastervolt recently and wonder if it was just a flash in the pan (excuse the pun)

 

Regards Andy.

 

We are both Mastervolt and Victron Dealers but we fit Mastervolt. This is mainly down to slightly better support from Mastervolt plus our boats tend to venture out of the UK the Mastervolt warranty is simpler in the UK.

 

Both companies supply excellent products Victron at first glance appears the cheaper option but this is only true if you are installing a very basic system, the more complex the system the nearer the price becomes while the Mastervolt system begins to offer more for the money.

 

Victrons full range is due for an overhaul and this is now nearly two years later than was supposed to happen, if it had happened on time they might have taken the lead but it now seems unlikely that they will because Mastervolt are releasing new products all the time.

 

I do attend both companies technical courses and although it might not be of much interest to the average narrowboat owner there are some very clever gadgets on the horizon for the more affluent markets.

 

The thing with inverters is that high quality pure sine wave inverters are expensive but are far more complex than quasi sine wave cheap ones at the other end of the market.

 

We will shortly be offering via www.canalboatbits.co.uk one of the often seen in different colors and different stickers Taiwanese offerings purely because there seems to be a demand for them! Needless to say we won't be fitting them and I wouldn't personally touch one!

[Travis]

Cheers Gary, I can fully agree with the support from Mastervolt.

 

Our boat was built not far from you by Pickwell and Arnold, Mastervolt charger and inverter fiitted as standard. We had a spate of power cuts and surges one evening a few weeks ago, and it left the charger in a sorry state. I sent it down south to Mastervolt and they sent it to Amsterdam for repair. Rather than wait I asked for a service exchange unit, a brand new charger came within two days, I fitted it, problem solved.

 

Imagine my surprise when a couple of days later they contacted me to tell me I was to recieve a refund as it only cost £63 to fix the old one...they didn't have to tell me it was so cheap to repair, they could have kept the money and said 'nowt. In effect I got a new charger, fully guaranteed for £63!

 

Honest people, honest company, good service.

 

Regards, Andy.