Which engine is better for continuous cruising

[RONNIE]

Hi all,can you advise on which engine to fit for continuous cruising,and the right heating system,

[sueb]

Hi all,can you advise on which engine to fit for continuous cruising,and the right heating system,

Solid fuel central heating and a water cooled engine. The solid fuel heats the water in winter and the engine heats it in summer.

Sue

[alan_fincher]

Without knowing the entire history of the page, the first thing that springs to mind is 'housekeeping' . (For instance; we once published a load of stuff that was out-of-date because we were finally able to collate it and get it suitable for public consumption - mainly going through and removing personal details of people under-taking the research)

 

Welcome Ronnie,

 

For people to advise much, I think more information will be required from you.

 

Boat size ? Length ? Widebeam or Narrowboat ? Modern engine, or something "traditional" in a proper engine room ?

 

For heating what is your order of priorities.

 

Cost to install ?, Cost to run ?, Convenience ?, Reliability ?

 

I think most people will likely recommend that you have multiple way of heating both the cabin and water, so that you are not snookered completely if one fails. Generally speaking oil fired systems seem the least reliable, particularly if of the type really intended to heat lorries, and if run all the time. Gas heating is probably out for a live-aboard, as running costs will be prohibitive. A solid fuel stove usually figures in most liveaboard set-ups, but often supported by other heat systems too.

[RONNIE]

Solid fuel central heating and a water cooled engine. The solid fuel heats the water in winter and the engine heats it in summer.

Sue

Hi Sue thank you for the reply,can you recommend a good engine for this system, Ronnie

[RONNIE]

Welcome Ronnie,

 

For people to advise much, I think more information will be required from you.

 

Boat size ? Length ? Widebeam or Narrowboat ? Modern engine, or something "traditional" in a proper engine room ?

 

For heating what is your order of priorities.

 

Cost to install ?, Cost to run ?, Convenience ?, Reliability ?

 

I think most people will likely recommend that you have multiple way of heating both the cabin and water, so that you are not snookered completely if one fails. Generally speaking oil fired systems seem the least reliable, particularly if of the type really intended to heat lorries, and if run all the time. Gas heating is probably out for a live-aboard, as running costs will be prohibitive. A solid fuel stove usually figures in most liveaboard set-ups, but often supported by other heat systems too.

Hi Alan, we are looking at 57 foot narrowboat modern engine,what do you mean by proper engine room, ? I dont fancy being hung up by my feet while i fix the engine, and i would prefer reliability in the engine, the solid fuel sounds good Alan can you recommend a back up, thank you for your help Alan. Ronnie

[sueb]

Hi Sue thank you for the reply,can you recommend a good engine for this system, Ronnie

bmc 1.8. Now awaiting loads of replies .

Sue

[Lady Muck]

I would have thought 'a working engine' is the best for continuous cruising. But seriously, try to pick an engine for which the parts are readily available (someone better informed will be along in a minute). If you need easy engine access then a trad stern narrowboat is the way to go, because the engine will be in its' own room, meaning you will be protected from the elements and not hanging upside down when you tinker with it.

[Bones]

anything that works, and is reliable and the right size for the boat.

[alan_fincher]

Ronnie,

 

By "proper engine room" I meant the truly traditional layout whether the engine is in a cabin starting some 8 feet forward of the steerer, and there is a traditional boatman's cabin behind, (these have limited headroom, due to a highly raised floor so the propshaft can pass underneath. This arrangement usually means a big slow revving engine, (often vintage), big prop, and correspondingly deep draught, making it generally slower on shallow canals.

 

It sounds like you are after a more modern set-up where the engine sits at the back, either in it's own cabin, (the so called "trad" layout), or under boards outside.

 

In that case, for a new boat one of the modern engines based on a Japanese industrial or agricultural engine is usually fitted.

 

It could be one of these, (base engine in brackets).

 

Barrus Shire (Yanmar ?)

Beta (Kubota)

HMI (Isuzu)

Nanni (Kubota)

Vetus (Mitsubishi)

 

All are water cooled, (so can be made to heat domestic water as a by product), and typically 4-cylinder in the kind of horsepower you would need for a 57 foot narrowboat, (maybe 30 to 50 max).

 

All are reliable, if properly installed, and although each will have it's supporters and detractors, it's probably hard to say that one is better than another. (Some do seem to want silly numbers for consumable items like oil filters though - it could be worth bfinding out costs of certain spares). To some extent you are probably best going with what your shell builder fits as standard, as they will have more experience of installing it, and may get a better discount when buying it - they may not wish to deviate from their standard offering on engine.

 

For completeness a new engine doesn't have to be Japanese, you could for example have

 

Lister Petter (English), also a reliable choice

Barrus Shanks (Chinese). a bit of an unknown quantity budget engine.

 

Most engines are based on industrial units, or tractor engines. It is not typical to find automotive, (car or van), diesels used in this way any more, as they have become too complex for use in a canal boat. Older boats do use them, however, and the old BMC 'B series' diesel, in either 1500cc or 1800cc guise is still widely used. You can still buy them fully reconditioned, at significantly less cost than an all new motor.

 

I hope this helps at least a bit.

 

If you need more, I'm probably not your man, as I also rely on an old BMC, not anything modern.

 

Alan

[Tony Brooks]

Hi all,can you advise on which engine to fit for continuous cruising,and the right heating system,

 

 

This is my personal view and can in now way be taken as representative of the views of the forum owner and moderators.

 

I used to say any marination that has good spares & service backup and after that chose a colour you like, but since that I have read some reports about a certain make of gearbox and received a verbal statement from the technical department of the mariniser that makes me think that one of the larger player's products may not be fit for purpose when sold into the inland industry although they will be fine for coastal and off shore tasks. Do a search on gearboxes to find out which one has a time limit on running out of gear which you as a continuous cruiser may well need to do.

 

There seem to be three main marinisers of Mitsubishi engines, the one referred to above, one having a very long standing respected name in the UK and one American one with a very odd name. I understand that the American mariniser uses a small flywheel which leads to tick-over problems (I think we have had a thread about this as well).

 

If its a modern engine you are after I think I would go for one of the Kubota marinisations, but being a good European nothing would induce me to get one of the blue ones.

 

As for the heating system. If you have two tanks then I would plump for something like a Kabola central heating boiler as a backup/near instant heat support to a solid fuel stove. If its one tank I would go for a gas boiler as support. If you had a readily available source of 28 second heating oil in a second tank then probably any of the diesel "boilers" would do, but I doubt you will find 28 second oil easy to obtain.

[RONNIE]

I would have thought 'a working engine' is the best for continuous cruising. But seriously, try to pick an engine for which the parts are readily available (someone better informed will be along in a minute). If you need easy engine access then a trad stern narrowboat is the way to go, because the engine will be in its' own room, meaning you will be protected from the elements and not hanging upside down when you tinker with it.

 

Hi thank you for the info I will look for a trad stern, I take it this type of boat as more open space at the stern,

[Liam]

Hi Ronnie,

 

Check this website out for a picture of each style of narrowboat.

 

http://www.rugbyboats.co.uk/styles.php

[RONNIE]

Ronnie,

 

By "proper engine room" I meant the truly traditional layout whether the engine is in a cabin starting some 8 feet forward of the steerer, and there is a traditional boatman's cabin behind, (these have limited headroom, due to a highly raised floor so the propshaft can pass underneath. This arrangement usually means a big slow revving engine, (often vintage), big prop, and correspondingly deep draught, making it generally slower on shallow canals.

 

It sounds like you are after a more modern set-up where the engine sits at the back, either in it's own cabin, (the so called "trad" layout), or under boards outside.

 

In that case, for a new boat one of the modern engines based on a Japanese industrial or agricultural engine is usually fitted.

 

It could be one of these, (base engine in brackets).

 

Barrus Shire (Yanmar ?)

Beta (Kubota)

HMI (Isuzu)

Nanni (Kubota)

Vetus (Mitsubishi)

 

All are water cooled, (so can be made to heat domestic water as a by product), and typically 4-cylinder in the kind of horsepower you would need for a 57 foot narrowboat, (maybe 30 to 50 max).

 

All are reliable, if properly installed, and although each will have it's supporters and detractors, it's probably hard to say that one is better than another. (Some do seem to want silly numbers for consumable items like oil filters though - it could be worth bfinding out costs of certain spares). To some extent you are probably best going with what your shell builder fits as standard, as they will have more experience of installing it, and may get a better discount when buying it - they may not wish to deviate from their standard offering on engine.

 

For completeness a new engine doesn't have to be Japanese, you could for example have

 

Lister Petter (English), also a reliable choice

Barrus Shanks (Chinese). a bit of an unknown quantity budget engine.

 

Most engines are based on industrial units, or tractor engines. It is not typical to find automotive, (car or van), diesels used in this way any more, as they have become too complex for use in a canal boat. Older boats do use them, however, and the old BMC 'B series' diesel, in either 1500cc or 1800cc guise is still widely used. You can still buy them fully reconditioned, at significantly less cost than an all new motor.

 

I hope this helps at least a bit.

 

If you need more, I'm probably not your man, as I also rely on an old BMC, not anything modern.

 

Alan

Hi Alan, thank you for the info,I have just been to the boat yard and they told me the same ,the engine needs to be about 40bhp just incase we have to go on the river, I think more practice is needed before i go that far,

[RONNIE]

This is my personal view and can in now way be taken as representative of the views of the forum owner and moderators.

 

I used to say any marination that has good spares & service backup and after that chose a colour you like, but since that I have read some reports about a certain make of gearbox and received a verbal statement from the technical department of the mariniser that makes me think that one of the larger player's products may not be fit for purpose when sold into the inland industry although they will be fine for coastal and off shore tasks. Do a search on gearboxes to find out which one has a time limit on running out of gear which you as a continuous cruiser may well need to do.

 

There seem to be three main marinisers of Mitsubishi engines, the one referred to above, one having a very long standing respected name in the UK and one American one with a very odd name. I understand that the American mariniser uses a small flywheel which leads to tick-over problems (I think we have had a thread about this as well).

 

If its a modern engine you are after I think I would go for one of the Kubota marinisations, but being a good European nothing would induce me to get one of the blue ones.

 

As for the heating system. If you have two tanks then I would plump for something like a Kabola central heating boiler as a backup/near instant heat support to a solid fuel stove. If its one tank I would go for a gas boiler as support. If you had a readily available source of 28 second heating oil in a second tank then probably any of the diesel "boilers" would do, but I doubt you will find 28 second oil easy to obtain.

Hi Tony thank you for the info there is so much to think about, many thanks Ronnie

[Tony Brooks]

SNIP

 

Lister Petter (English), also a reliable choice

Barrus Shanks (Chinese). a bit of an unknown quantity budget engine.

 

SNIP

 

Alan

 

Lets not forget Bukh - a proper marine engine from Denmark - if you have the money to spend. The DV36 has a similar power output to a BMC 1.5 but a little more torque. I have found mine more than adequate on the Thames last summer on a 54ft boat. If you go for the raw water cooled version but feed the system through a skin tank you will not have the compromises about alternator speed v engine speed v water pump speed that limits alternator output on many engines. It has harmonic balance weights so should not bounce around as much as other engines and is wet liner to make overhaul less trouble. It is direct injected so gives very easy cold starts without the complications of heater plugs but (as all smaller direct injection units tend to) smokes a bit on idle and low power - oh yes, you probably need to be called a banker called Fred to be able to afford a new one. last time I looked you could get about 2.5 overhauled BMCs for the price of the Bukh.

 

[alan_fincher]

last time I looked you could get about 2.5 overhauled BMCs for the price of the Bukh.

 

 

Yes,

 

But what does "overhauled" mean ? I've heard some horror stories about the leading player in rebuilding them, but am not qualified to say whether they have any substance or not.

 

I agree there are lot's of less commonly fitted, and often better, engines that I did not list. However I was hoping to cover most that Ronnie is likely to be offered from the more mainstream shell builders.

 

I hadn't thought of the gearbox aspect, particularly, but feel you can't go wrong with PRM-Newage - some of the others don't seem to be as bullet-proof.

[chris w]

Hi thank you for the info I will look for a trad stern, I take it this type of boat as more open space at the stern,

No, a TRAD has the LEAST open space at the stern. The one with the most open space at the stern is a "cruiser" stern. The engine is under boards which constitute the stern area on which you and up to say 3 others can congregate. If you have a stern cover for a cruiser (as many do to protect the stern from the elements in the winter when moored, then you can work under that if necessary and so can work on the engine even in the rain.

 

Chris

 

PS: with regards to which engine, most of the hire companies have gone over to Isuzu engines we are told.

Edited March 4, 2009 by chris w

[Neil TNC]

Hi all,can you advise on which engine to fit for continuous cruising,and the right heating system,

 

For TNC style of "continuous cruising", like virtually flat out for 15 hours, or 6 weeks of 12 hour days, I would get another Beta.

As for heating, don't get a Mikuni, unless the new pressure jet one gets good reviews.

[sueb]

Our BMC was new when we bought it a couple of years ago.

Sue

[alan_fincher]

Our BMC was new when we bought it a couple of years ago.

Sue

Sue,

 

Presumably a Turkish built one then, as UK ones ceased production I'm guessing about 25 years ago ?

 

I don't know the full story, but they no longer advertise new ones, only rebuilds.

 

I've been told it's because they would be too hard to get past current emission control requirements, but I've not had that confirmed.

 

God knows what Calcutt now put in their "Clipper" class boats, as it still says BMC on the spec, and doesn't mention that the engines are re-cons.

 

Does anybody know, please ?

 

Though I have a soft spot for BMCs, I think I'd struggle to convince someone they were the best new option, unless price was the major driver. But based on what I've heard, I'd still go for a recon BMC over something like the Shanks, I think.

 

Incidentally to take up Chris' point, several haire fleets standardise on Kubota based engines, too.

[sueb]

Sue,

 

Presumably a Turkish built one then, as UK ones ceased production I'm guessing about 25 years ago ?

 

I don't know the full story, but they no longer advertise new ones, only rebuilds.

 

I've been told it's because they would be too hard to get past current emission control requirements, but I've not had that confirmed.

 

God knows what Calcutt now put in their "Clipper" class boats, as it still says BMC on the spec, and doesn't mention that the engines are re-cons.

 

Does anybody know, please ?

 

Though I have a soft spot for BMCs, I think I'd struggle to convince someone they were the best new option, unless price was the major driver. But based on what I've heard, I'd still go for a recon BMC over something like the Shanks, I think.

 

Incidentally to take up Chris' point, several haire fleets standardise on Kubota based engines, too.

Our BMC 1.8 is Turkish and we are happy. The 1.5 is made in India and the rumours are that it isn't so good. I haven't a clue what Calcut use but they supplied our new engine.

Sue

[alan_fincher]

Our BMC 1.8 is Turkish and we are happy. The 1.5 is made in India and the rumours are that it isn't so good. I haven't a clue what Calcut use but they supplied our new engine.

Sue

Yes, understood.

 

No reason to believe a Turkish BMC isn't as good as an English one, (probably better, as it will be much newer).

 

Allegedly they have modified (and improved) certain aspects of the original engine, which is no doubt why getting the correct version of a spare part can be problematic.

 

I don't know if production of the engine in Turkey has ceased, but I don't think Calcutt have been advertising new marinised versions since around mid-2007.

 

One could ask them, I suppose, but I'm guessing you can no longer buy a new one.

[RONNIE]

No, a TRAD has the LEAST open space at the stern. The one with the most open space at the stern is a "cruiser" stern. The engine is under boards which constitute the stern area on which you and up to say 3 others can congregate. If you have a stern cover for a cruiser (as many do to protect the stern from the elements in the winter when moored, then you can work under that if necessary and so can work on the engine even in the rain.

 

Chris

 

PS: with regards to which engine, most of the hire companies have gone over to Isuzu engines we are told.

 

Hi Chris, I looked at a cruiser stern today and most of the floor lifted up to show the engine and lots of room each side of it, and i like the hand rail with timber capping round the top. thank you for the info. Ronnie

[Michael Siggers]

On 04/03/2009 at 13:50, Tony Brooks said:

 

Lets not forget Bukh - a proper marine engine from Denmark - if you have the money to spend. The DV36 has a similar power output to a BMC 1.5 but a little more torque. I have found mine more than adequate on the Thames last summer on a 54ft boat. If you go for the raw water cooled version but feed the system through a skin tank you will not have the compromises about alternator speed v engine speed v water pump speed that limits alternator output on many engines. It has harmonic balance weights so should not bounce around as much as other engines and is wet liner to make overhaul less trouble. It is direct injected so gives very easy cold starts without the complications of heater plugs but (as all smaller direct injection units tend to) smokes a bit on idle and low power - oh yes, you probably need to be called a banker called Fred to be able to afford a new one. last time I looked you could get about 2.5 overhauled BMCs for the price of the Bukh.

 

Hi Tony

 

Late joining this discussion but I'm looking at a boat with a DV36 as a liveaboard, and wondering how these engines are suited to that. Thinking about whether they need to be winterised if living aboard.

 

Mike

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Michael Siggers said:

Hi Tony

 

Late joining this discussion but I'm looking at a boat with a DV36 as a liveaboard, and wondering how these engines are suited to that. Thinking about whether they need to be winterised if living aboard.

 

Mike

 

I think I replied on your other thread. On my boat with the raw water system piped through a skin tank then as well suited as anything else. If it really is fully raw water cooled or heat exchanger cooled (Bukh also make keel cooled versions for lifeboats, these are in effect tank cooled) then the danger of splitting the block, manifold, water pump etc. if you leave the boat without doing a thorough drain down would not make it my first choice. Tank cooled with antifreeze is the easiest.