Is Continuous Cruising Safe?

[Naughty Cal]

I know you've already said that which is why I'm puzzled that you keep making the differentiation.

 

Because if we all live on our boats and CC and sell our homes (for which we pay council tax) the coffers will be left short.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Phylis

[carlt]

Because if we all live on our boats and leave our homes (for which we pay council tax) the coffers will be left short.

And if we all go and live in wigwams, on the Welsh hills, there'll be no room for sheep.

 

Equally unlikely and just as irrelevant.

[magpie patrick]

The vast majority of marina dwelling liveaboards pay no CT.

 

No, but the marina they are in pays business rates: even some official residential moorings don't pay council tax because the operator of the moorings is already paying business rates. The concept of a private residential boat in a marina creates an anomaly that the rates system wasn't designed for: a dwelling pays council tax, a business pays business rates, a dwelling over a business (a flat over a shop) will pay business rates for the business part and council tax for the dwelling part. Unless you actually live in a furniture showroom you don't live in premises on which business rates are already paid. Yet if you pay council tax at a marina mooring, both taxes are paid on the same bit of property. In fact, I suspect this could be the road to perdition, if a marina dweller has to pay council tax, how long before my boat in a marina is classified as a "second home" for tax purposes.

[stewey]

how long before my boat in a marina is classified as a "second home" for tax purposes.

Mind you this would be ideal if you decide to become an MP

 

Stewey

[carlt]

Nor am I arguing that they should pay CT, just that those who criticise ccers should also, in the interests of their, supposed, fairness, include all liveaboards who for whatever reason are exempt from CT, including marina dwellers and online moorers.

 

In fact, I suspect this could be the road to perdition, if a marina dweller has to pay council tax, how long before my boat in a marina is classified as a "second home" for tax purposes.

And, in the interests of fairness, presumably AlanH should expect a leisure boat owner to be paying the same tax as a holiday cottage owner.

[blackrose]

To get back to the original topic, I will diverge slightly from the majority opinion that CCing is just as safe as having a permanent mooring.

 

When you CC you don't always know who your neigbours are - they come and go, as will you. On a permanent mooring your neigbours will immediatly know if the person on your boat is not you! As much as you may try to get to know who you are moored up with, this may not always be the case when you are CCing.

 

The safety comparison obviously depends on the particular permanent mooring - for example whether it is on the towpath or offside, and also how often the boat is moved from its mooring. Also it's going to be a lot safer for your boat if you are living onboard. Living elsewhere & CCing makes no sense to me.

 

I can only go by my own experience: In the 3 years I was CCing I only had trouble twice - once someone tried to set me adrift in the middle of the night and the other time two drunk yobs jumped on my roof in broad daylight and threatened to beat me up. In the 3 years I've had an offside mooring this has never happened.

Edited April 8, 2009 by blackrose

[carlt]

Living elsewhere & CCing makes no sense to me.

I spent most of the 80s moving my boat around the system, with no home mooring, and didn't live aboard.

 

It was great!

Edited April 8, 2009 by carlt

[Mike Poole]

I wouldn't dream of paying council tax while living on a boat. Might as well live in a house and reap the full benefits of 24hr police protection, MRSA and a neon glow in the bleak city sky. In that respect I'm quite happy to count myself amongst the spongiform fraternity. Things are never quite black and white though, as I do hand over an enormous amount of income tax to the Government who kindly use it to invade other countries and bail out failing banks and other madness. If I could get out of that as well I would. It sounds selfish but not wanting to fully participate in the mad merry-go-round of modern life is a good reason for escaping to the cut in the first place. Besides, doesn't general taxation contribute a lot more to roads, policing, schools and so on than the poll tax does? Yet I don't begrudge my taxes paying for people who don't want to work or paying for other people's kid's education (I have none myself) or paying for the repair of their stressed-out buggered up hearts and so on. I have even contributed regularly to charitable works without feeling remotely superior although I wish I could get Viz from the Big Issue vendor rather than the Big Issue.

 

What makes me laugh is as soon as you mention you live on a boat the first response is not 'Ooh that's nice, water, nature, different way of life etc' but generally 'Oh so you don't pay council tax then?'. My reply is 'That's right, and neither do I have a TV licence!' That can turn them a bit huffy. Another way of looking at it is that I paid the rates for thirty years and wasn't happy at all with how a lot of it was spent - or rather wasted - so I am now giving myself a rebate.

[AlanH]

I Another way of looking at it is that I paid the rates for thirty years and wasn't happy at all with how a lot of it was spent - or rather wasted - so I am now giving myself a rebate.

And letting someone else pay.

[carlt]

And letting someone else pay.

So, in the interests of fairness, do you believe that, as a leisure boat owner, you should be paying the same CT that a holiday cottage owner pays?

[Naughty Cal]

So, in the interests of fairness, do you believe that, as a leisure boat owner, you should be paying the same CT that a holiday cottage owner pays?

 

Why not. We pay enough taxes another one wouldnt hurt.

[carlt]

Why not. We pay enough taxes another one wouldnt hurt.

So, because there isn't a mechanism for the payment of this tax, you acknowledge that, by Alan's (and, by agreeing with him, your) definition, you and Alan are as much "spongers" as a ccer, or any liveaboard, that has no mechanism to pay Council Tax.

Edited April 8, 2009 by carlt

[Jac]

Why not. We pay enough taxes another one wouldnt hurt.

 

 

With respect Phylis, you maybe loaded but I can't pay my bills as it is, let alone another tax.

[magpie patrick]

Why not. We pay enough taxes another one wouldnt hurt.

 

Where do we start?

 

The selfish one: I pay £110 a month in Bath and if I have to pay that, or even half that, for the boat CT then I'll have to sell, can't afford it.

 

The tax "fairness" one. It's a boat, not a cottage by a road, therefore the only use of facilities provided by the local authority that I make use of are the roads leading to the site. If they needed improvement because of the marina. the marina operator would already have paid this as a section 106 contribution when the place was built. I do not park on a public road, my waste is not collected by the council, I make no (not limited, but no) use of local facilities like schools or libraries, nor am I entitled to. As a "second home owner" I would have access to such local services

 

There are what might be regarded as "public" facilities available, water, waste disposal, sewage, but these are already paid for by the operator, either on a commercial basis or through their business rates. to tax me is getting paid twice for the same thing.

 

And finally, I do use local facilities provided by the private sector, the marina itself, the Whitminster Stores, and The Old Forge, Bell etc. These have no subsidy to justify taxing me, indeed they and their staff PAY tax to the local authority. Going back to my first point, tax me, I can't afford to run the boat any more, I sell up to someone who takes the boat elsewhere, local outlets lose trade

[Jac]

And if we all go and live in wigwams, on the Welsh hills, there'll be no room for sheep.

 

 

If you build they will come. Tax man cometh also. It's only a matter of time.

[sociable_hermit]

If they are using the facillities provided by those who pay CT without contributing then they are taking advantage of those who do contribute and are therefore spongers.

 

"No because they are paying what is considered by the regulations as their share."

 

Your words, when describing the contributions made by businessmen with crafty accountants. Exactly the same standards can be applied to CCers with children.

 

Many services are funded by central Government through other taxes such as income tax. The NHS and state pensions are funded through NI contributions. Road maintenance through road tax, etc. etc. The fact that many of these services are managed with Council involvement does not mean that they are all funded solely through Council Tax, as Councils still receive funds from Central Government. At the same time, some of the services provided by Councils are of no benefit to boaters - litter collection / recycling being the obvious example (either included in Marina fees or your BW licence, depending on whose waterside facilities you use). Education is the main exception on both counts, being entirely County Education Authority funded (I believe) and actually of use to boaters. But given the complexities of raising children on board - which certainly isn't for everyone - how many examples of this do you see? And doesn't the contribution made through other taxes balance out the lack of Council Tax contributions when the actual use of Council services is taken into account?

[Yoda]

Just a short note to complicate matters.

 

Our semi nomadic caravan dwellers pay no tax. Their children are allow to go to schools even where there is no budget or class space for them, then they have free school meals.

 

A CC's children can go to any school at any time just the same as above and the parents do not have to pay council tax.

[carlt]

Just a short note to complicate matters.

 

Our semi nomadic caravan dwellers pay no tax. Their children are allow to go to schools even where there is no budget or class space for them, then they have free school meals.

 

A CC's children can go to any school at any time just the same as above and the parents do not have to pay council tax.

Just as it should be!

[Naughty Cal]

We shall have to agree to disagree on this one then.

 

Travellers, CCers call them what you will they all play the same game.

[Bones]

We shall have to agree to disagree on this one then.

 

Travellers, CCers call them what you will they all play the same game.

 

 

but when I was CCing I wasn't getting education for the child for free... or at least I MIGHT have been, but it wasn't my responsibility to pay, it was mine to get her to school. Perhaps I should have charged the council money to get her to school to ensure that their ratings went up from having a bright kid on their books... ooh now, that WOULD have been a good idea!

 

Back to the original topic. CCing is inconvienient unless you are retired and doing the system. It is only convienient if the area you are CCing in isn't enforced, and even that isn't a certainty these days. BW employed a new warden last year and he has been causing havok on the Oxford making people move their boats and not bridge hop. Having said that - it seems BW are keen to clamp down on licences rather than 'breaking' the CC 'rules'. The latter is only a matter of time. If you are cruising up and down a particular stretch, regardless of whether it is the whole system or not you will, over time, find that you get to know boats along stretches, as well as the areas, and with that you will moor in places that are 'safe'. In the meantime the most prominant advice about CCing and being safe is mooring near to other boats in well lit areas until you are more familier with the stretch.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Bones

[carlt]

We shall have to agree to disagree on this one then.

 

Travellers, CCers call them what you will they all play the same game.

And, as you are not paying the equivalent tax, as a holiday cottage, you are playing the same game.

 

In fact, in one way or another, we all are.

[Naughty Cal]

And, as you are not paying the equivalent tax, as a holiday cottage, you are playing the same game.

 

In fact, in one way or another, we all are.

 

I think i pay my fair share of taxes thanks.

[carlt]

but when I was CCing I wasn't getting education for the child for free... or at least I MIGHT have been, but it wasn't my responsibility to pay, it was mine to get her to school. Perhaps I should have charged the council money to get her to school to ensure that their ratings went up from having a bright kid on their books... ooh now, that WOULD have been a good idea!

Every child has the right to a free education.

 

Not every adult has the mechanism to contribute, in all the different ways, that other adults do.

 

I am not paying for my child's education, I am contributing (more willingly than some) to every child's education.

 

I think i pay my fair share of taxes thanks.

But you have the floating equivalent of a holiday cottage. Why should you not make the same contribution that a holiday cottage owner does?

 

All in the interests of fairness, of course.

[Naughty Cal]

But you have the floating equivalent of a holiday cottage. Why should you not make the same contribution that a holiday cottage owner does?

 

All in the interests of fairness, of course.

 

I have already said if i had to i would.

 

In the interests of fairness of course every other leisure boat owner in the country would as well.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Phylis

[carlt]

I have already said if i had to i would.

 

In the interests of fairness of course every other leisure boat owner in the country would as well.

And, if they had to, you must assume that every ccer would pay Council Tax, so why are they "spongers" and you (or AlanH) are not?