Bones Side Hatch!

[Bones]

I have put a couple of pics on my blog of the side hatch, and all of Martin Kedian's details and his flyer so you can see everything else he has done. For all the pics and all the words you will need to get hold of a canal boat magazine from WHSmith, Borders, Martins or anywhere like that.

[Proper Job]

I have put a couple of pics on my blog of the side hatch, and all of Martin Kedian's details and his flyer so you can see everything else he has done. For all the pics and all the words you will need to get hold of a canal boat magazine from WHSmith, Borders, Martins or anywhere like that.

Spot the continuity error

[Doorman]

I have been suprised at the responce to this feature great article by Bones I am realy delighted at her help in promoting this side hatch I am now taking bookings for them as I feel that I shall be very busy My email address is KEDIAN@kedian2002dotfsnetdotcodotuk tell 01604511512 regards Martin

 

 

Hi Martin,

 

there's no mention of the pigeon boxes you also manufacture, great design and well fabricated. We bought one from you at the 2007 Crick show.

 

Mike

[John C]

These hatches seem like an easy way to fit a side hatch and I am tempted to do so myself. What sort of "mastic" is used? Is it silicon (bathroom) sealer?

[Bones]

These hatches seem like an easy way to fit a side hatch and I am tempted to do so myself. What sort of "mastic" is used? Is it silicon (bathroom) sealer?

 

yep.

[John C]

yep.

 

I thought so, its going to leak then, not sometime soon but eventually. Silicon sealer needs to be able to vent off the chemical that cures it, it cannot if its trapped between two piecs of metal so it will cause corrosion while trying to cure that in turn will cause a leak. Also, painting over the fillet applied to the edge is going to be tricky. I wonder if there a sealant better suited to the job, apart from doing the job properly and welding it in place, is that possible with these?

 

Just to clarify the timescale, it may be be a few years before it decides to leak (if at all), but if the rest of the joints on the the boat decided to leak after a few years we would not be very happy with it would we?

[Bones]

I thought so, its going to leak then, not sometime soon but eventually. Silicon sealer needs to be able to vent off the chemical that cures it, it cannot if its trapped between two piecs of metal so it will cause corrosion while trying to cure that in turn will cause a leak. Also, painting over the fillet applied to the edge is going to be tricky. I wonder if there a sealant better suited to the job, apart from doing the job properly and welding it in place, is that possible with these?

 

Just to clarify the timescale, it may be be a few years before it decides to leak (if at all), but if the rest of the joints on the the boat decided to leak after a few years we would not be very happy with it would we?

 

 

hmm.. perhaps I had better check that then, although it isn't hard to replace it. What stuff gets used on normal windows?. You could weld it in if you wanted to.

[Amicus]

R, I agree, this silicone gets used in a lot of unsuitable applications. It aint the be all and end all of gloops a lot of people think it is. In this situation I think you need some of the stuff used in car body shops, dunno whether its acrylic, butyl or sommick else, that nice Mr. TNC should be able to tell us??

Theres a lot to be said in favour of the old fashoned Sealoflex.

 

 

Edit just had meself a quick Google and it seem to be polyurethane

Edited February 19, 2009 by Amicus

[sociable_hermit]

Or what's the black marine sealant stuff? I've got a tube of it somewhere...

 

Worked brilliantly on the leaky portholes so should work for this.

[Martin Kedian]

Or what's the black marine sealant stuff? I've got a tube of it somewhere...

 

Worked brilliantly on the leaky portholes so should work for this.

 

The sealent used is not silicon sealant as described in other posts but is supplied by a company making roof hatches it is also paintable the hatches can be welded in and have not leaked in the two years that I have been making them the reason that I use clear sealant is that it is less messy during the instalation

 

The sealent used is not silicon sealant as described in other posts but is supplied by a company making roof hatches it is also paintable the hatches can be welded in and have not leaked in the two years that I have been making them the reason that I use clear sealant is that it is less messy during the instalation

 

 

I do a whole range of retro fit products side doors roof hatches dog boxes pidgeon boxes steel cratches inserts to change windows for portholes replacment steel doors bach hatches stainless stell water tanks in fact if it can be made then I make it ps thanks for the complement on the pidgeon boxes Martin

Edited February 19, 2009 by Martin Kedian

[Martin Kedian]

The sealent used is not silicon sealant as described in other posts but is supplied by a company making roof hatches it is also paintable the hatches can be welded in and have not leaked in the two years that I have been making them the reason that I use clear sealant is that it is less messy during the instalation

 

 

 

 

I do a whole range of retro fit products side doors roof hatches dog boxes pidgeon boxes steel cratches inserts to change windows for portholes replacment steel doors bach hatches stainless stell water tanks in fact if it can be made then I make it ps thanks for the complement on the pidgeon boxes Martin

 

The whole idea of these hatches is to make it possible for the average d i y person to fit them If welding is the corect way to fit things to a boat perhaps we should start welding in windows and mushroom vents? the welding process has associated risks such as fire distortion and damage to the surounding paintwork I am not anti welding as i am qualified in this area this is I believe a reasonable priced way of achieving a side door in a reasonable time with little mess

Regards Martin

[sociable_hermit]

I don't remember mentioning silicone sealant or criticising you for using it (or not, as it happens) - someone happened to mention waterproof sealant so I replied, that's all. The stuff I was thinking of is Silkaflex. Highly effective but yes, potentially messy. Can be wiped away with a damp cloth before it has dried, though, so it's not THAT bad.

 

I shall resist the temptation to quote myself on that.

[Martin Kedian]

I don't remember mentioning silicone sealant or criticising you for using it (or not, as it happens) - someone happened to mention waterproof sealant so I replied, that's all. The stuff I was thinking of is Silkaflex. Highly effective but yes, potentially messy. Can be wiped away with a damp cloth before it has dried, though, so it's not THAT bad.

 

I shall resist the temptation to quote myself on that.

 

 

Sorry for any offence it was mentioned in an earlier thread bu John C my reply was not personal to you only trying to give a correct pictyre of the instalation of the product Cheers Martin

[Chickadee]

Thanks for the article, my Dads been on about giving my boat a side hatch for ages looks like I might get it now.

[John C]

The sealent used is not silicon sealant as described in other posts but is supplied by a company making roof hatches it is also paintable the hatches can be welded in and have not leaked in the two years that I have been making them the reason that I use clear sealant is that it is less messy during the instalation

 

 

So, what sort of sealant is used? It would be most useful to know for something else I have in mind for my boat, this thread has got me thinking, just dont tell the wife!

[KevTheWelder]

The whole idea of these hatches is to make it possible for the average d i y person to fit them If welding is the corect way to fit things to a boat perhaps we should start welding in windows and mushroom vents? the welding process has associated risks such as fire distortion and damage to the surounding paintwork I am not anti welding as i am qualified in this area this is I believe a reasonable priced way of achieving a side door in a reasonable time with little mess

Regards Martin

 

Hi Martin. Sounds a good idea to me , your side hatches . All I would add though , to your above comment , is that you say these hatches cut down on fire distortion and damage to paintwork , and that little mess is involved . Well , I know that welding is eliminated from the equation , but the side hatch aperture will likely be cut out with a grinder won't it , which is a far from clean process , and with a sizeable fire risk . Only other options are using a jigsaw ( laborious ) or plasma cutter ( not a diy option , also a sizeable fire risk ) Not trying to pick holes in it, it honestly sounds good , just wanted to point these things out .

Edited February 20, 2009 by KevTheWelder

[Chris-B]

Hi Martin. Sounds a good idea to me , your side hatches . All I would add though , to your above comment , is that you say these hatches cut down on fire distortion and damage to paintwork , and that little mess is involved . Well , I know that welding is eliminated from the equation , but the side hatch aperture will likely be cut out with a grinder won't it , which is a far from clean process , and with a sizeable fire risk . Only other options are using a jigsaw ( laborious ) or plasma cutter ( not a diy option , also a sizeable fire risk ) Not trying to pick holes in it, it honestly sounds good , just wanted to point these things out .

 

 

When we fitted ours we drilled 8 or so reference holes into the steelwork after measuring up , then used a jigsaw to remove the internal wood lining

after that was taken out we fixed a fire blanket to the internal lining and used a 9"angle grinder to remove the steel work ( holding the panel in place whilst cutting with 2 sea searcher magnets)

 

The blanket inside reduced the fire risk and detritus from the grinder and the side doors fitted first time in the hole.

We then used the removed wood lining to line out the new doors

All told 1 days work and very pleased

Chris

 

( This is how we fitted it and how you do it is up to you...I did not have access to a "rage saw" )

[Neil TNC]

R, I agree, this silicone gets used in a lot of unsuitable applications. It aint the be all and end all of gloops a lot of people think it is. In this situation I think you need some of the stuff used in car body shops, dunno whether its acrylic, butyl or sommick else, that nice Mr. TNC should be able to tell us??

Theres a lot to be said in favour of the old fashoned Sealoflex.

 

 

Edit just had meself a quick Google and it seem to be polyurethane

 

Someone called?...sorry I have not been following this.

In a past lfe some 17! years ago we used Sikaflex 221 for sealing panel joins that would be visible.

It also forms a virtually structural bond.

Personally, in this case I would be wary about metal to metal contact and would fit a thin gasket (of pvc?) sandwiched between Sikaflex, making sure there is a nice smoothed off bead of Sikaflex on the outside and on the inside (if it can be got at)

[John C]

Another thing that concerns me with these hatches is cutting more holes in the side of a boat is structural integrity. A narrowboat is not torsionally stiff (on its long axis). Doing this is not going to help matters. The few bolts holding the hatch in will not restore stiffness. The last retro fitted hatch I was involved with had some steel of decent section welded in and alot of lining removed to do this. This "stiffening" part of the also acted as drainage for the water that will inevitably get around the door edges. Incidentally this was not done by a boat yard, it was what I would call advanced DIY!

 

This is the reason that internal doors (personal and cupboard) are never a good fit, although whats a good fit is a matter of personal taste.

 

Having said all this, it probably does not overly matter, its just that knowing something about structural stiffness starts me worrying.........

[Bones]

Another thing that concerns me with these hatches is cutting more holes in the side of a boat is structural integrity. A narrowboat is not torsionally stiff (on its long axis). Doing this is not going to help matters. The few bolts holding the hatch in will not restore stiffness. The last retro fitted hatch I was involved with had some steel of decent section welded in and alot of lining removed to do this. This "stiffening" part of the also acted as drainage for the water that will inevitably get around the door edges. Incidentally this was not done by a boat yard, it was what I would call advanced DIY!

 

This is the reason that internal doors (personal and cupboard) are never a good fit, although whats a good fit is a matter of personal taste.

 

Having said all this, it probably does not overly matter, its just that knowing something about structural stiffness starts me worrying.........

 

The side of my boat straightened up as I bolted the hatch in!

[John C]

The side of my boat straightened up as I bolted the hatch in!

 

You should have seen what happened to my boat when I cut a hole for a pigeon box!

[Bones]

not one of Martins pigeon boxes I assume!

[Martin Kedian]

not one of Martins pigeon boxes I assume!

 

Good evening all This side hatch seems to be posing many questions for me of course that is good news

I will try and answer some of them for you if you have others please post them Kev I never use plasma cutters gas cutters grinders etc I allways recomend using a rage saw which can be hired from toolhire companys for about £10.00 for the weekend or a jig saw with a metal cutting blade the later takes about 2 hours to cut the hole or less if replacing a window The replacment door is stronger than the existing structure of the boat so no weakining of the boat can be expected the sealer i use is a rubber based compound I am not a specialist in sealants nor a chemist but I am asured that it is suitable for this operation others may have other opinions and if you wish to insall a side hatch you may use whatever you wish Window tape is another option I am also willing to come and use my rage saw to cut the hole for you leavig you to finish the hatch if required or to fully install I build Barges narrow boats and sea going craft of all types and so understand the structural integrity that is required I hope this answers some of the questions raised I am realy enjoying this banter have a great weekend Regards Martin

Edited February 20, 2009 by Martin Kedian

[RLWP]

I allways recomend using a rage saw which can be hired from toolhire company

 

 

So that's what it is. I couldn't work out from the magazine article. Very impressive, I wonder if it would work on car body panels without twisting them to bits.

 

Richard

[Martin Kedian]

 

So that's what it is. I couldn't work out from the magazine article. Very impressive, I wonder if it would work on car body panels without twisting them to bits.

 

Richard

It does many different things so i think it would if you went steady It is the most incredible tool I have found in recent times It costs about £100 and the blades cut 6 meters of 6 mm stell before showing any sign of wear cost of blade is about £17

Edited February 22, 2009 by Martin Kedian