communities...?!

[Phil Speight]

I don't live on my boat, I'm not a performing artist and I don't follow an "alternative" lifestyle (at least not these days). But I don't think it would be difficult to find those that do fit that description. I'm sure most other contributors to this forum would feel the same so I'm not sure where the OP is coming from.

 

And I do think this forum is not a bad representation of the canal community as a whole, though if anything the 'real' community is a little more right-wing ...

I do live on my boat - but otherwise I`m extremely ordinary. I pay moorings , license , council tax. For many years I made my living as either a painter ( and a good portion of that as , I suppose, a "folk-artist") or as a musician.As the former I got no help in the thin times from any part of the arts establishment, presumably because I couldn`t juggle, and as the latter I needed to earn money - so I travelled by road, stayed in accomodation negotiated beforehand or drove home. It is possible to have no politically extreme views ( while in "default" mode anyway ), to be sceptical about the new eviro-religion, to be an artist but not AN ARTIST and a performer while still living in a boating community. It`s just the one I live in is actually based very much around boats , the building, restoring and painting of boats, the working of boats and we accept, without remotely loosing ourselves in, a way of being that is actually of the canal world itself. We don`t make a thing of living on the canal - we just do - and we`re really so ordinary that I`m sure we don`t qualify.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Phil Speight

[Chris Pink]

You really are beginning to sound like Margaret Thatcher, by repeating the same statements of alledged fact, without producing any evidence to support them.

 

If there really are".... people, who live in communities on boats who make their living by performing arts..." and " , ...also people who live in communities on boats who are exploring ways of low impact living." then why not just tell Ana where they are, rather than keeping the information she has requested to yourself.

 

I did, by PM, I was unsure whether the people involved would want me to subject them to the kind of abuse that this seemingly harmless request has attracted. One of them will no doubty be familiar to yourself as a resident of fair Bradford-on-Avon. (think Beowulf)

 

Another was mentioned by Grahoom, no secret as they have a website and therefore are in the public domain.

 

Sounding like Margerat Thatcher, gosh, that will enter the Pink family annals as a unique and amusing insult (if that was what was intended).

 

 

It is possible to have no politically extreme views ( while in "default" mode anyway ), to be sceptical about the new eviro-religion, to be an artist but not AN ARTIST and a performer while still living in a boating community. It`s just the one I live in is actually based very much around boats , the building, restoring and painting of boats, the working of boats and we accept, without remotely loosing ourselves in, a way of being that is actually of the canal world itself. We don`t make a thing of living on the canal - we just do - and we`re really so ordinary that I`m sure we don`t qualify.

 

Why should you (or anyone else) think that your self-perceived 'ordinariness' should disqualify you from interest as a boater community?

 

Is it perhaps that you and the howling Daily Mail contingent are so locked into a stereotype image that you cannot see past that. Or the converse, that the communities you fail to see look to the untrained eye as simply another group of people.

 

Like Mr Gunkel your post appears to be full of assumption; the assumption, for instance, that the semi-mythical groups of people Ana is looking for would not pay moorings, license or council tax.

 

_ _ _ _ _

 

It does strike me that the community mentioned by Dave Mayall as his mooring buddies may well qualify, apart from the fact i don't believe he lives on his boat.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Chris Pink

[Lady Muck]

*sigh* this is going to degenerate into another slanging match I fear.

 

I don't blame Ana if she doesn't want to respond to these questions.

 

I think the link that Grahoom supplied will have pretty much answered her question and I'd imagine she's already chatting to some of the boating comumnities in the link.

 

Lets keep this on topic folks.

[carlt]

If anyone is up for starting a canal based Archaos type circus thingy, though, I'll chuck my hat in the ring (well my juggling clubs, at least).

[andywatson]

If anyone is up for starting a canal based Archaos type circus thingy, though, I'll chuck my hat in the ring (well my juggling clubs, at least).

 

As per my post above I'm up for the dance improvisation.

[stewey]

Is it perhaps that you and the howling Daily Mail contingent are so locked into a stereotype image that you cannot see past that. Or the converse, that the communities you fail to see look to the untrained eye as simply another group of people.

Oh no, not the old hoary old Daily Mail stereotype again. You certainly bang on about it in your posts. We can only assume that this is because you don't have any proper argument to make.

 

Surely you can do better than this Chris?

 

Stewey

[Chris Pink]

Oh no, not the old hoary old Daily Mail stereotype again. You certainly bang on about it in your posts. We can only assume that this is because you don't have any proper argument to make.

 

Surely you can do better than this Chris?

 

Stewey

 

Are you proposing that mention of the Daily Mail should be classed as a corollary to Godwin's Law.

 

I don't have any argument, I am simply mystified that a request, as made by the OP, should have excited such derision when at least 3 posters have made serious answers and understand, fully, the request.

 

I am now, however, seriously interested in the distinction Phil Speight makes between what he sees as a community based around boats and why that should not be classed as one from the OP's question - i don't believe this off-topic.

 

I would be interested in Ana's view on this.

[Nine of Hearts]

If anyone is up for starting a canal based Archaos type circus thingy, though, I'll chuck my hat in the ring (well my juggling clubs, at least).

 

That's not much of an act, carl, we'll never make any money!

[Phil Speight]

I did, by PM, I was unsure whether the people involved would want me to subject them to the kind of abuse that this seemingly harmless request has attracted. One of them will no doubty be familiar to yourself as a resident of fair Bradford-on-Avon. (think Beowulf)

 

Another was mentioned by Grahoom, no secret as they have a website and therefore are in the public domain.

 

Sounding like Margerat Thatcher, gosh, that will enter the Pink family annals as a unique and amusing insult (if that was what was intended).

 

 

 

 

Why should you (or anyone else) think that your self-perceived 'ordinariness' should disqualify you from interest as a boater community?

 

Is it perhaps that you and the howling Daily Mail contingent are so locked into a stereotype image that you cannot see past that. Or the converse, that the communities you fail to see look to the untrained eye as simply another group of people.

 

Like Mr Gunkel your post appears to be full of assumption; the assumption, for instance, that the semi-mythical groups of people Ana is looking for would not pay moorings, license or council tax.

 

_ _ _ _ _

 

It does strike me that the community mentioned by Dave Mayall as his mooring buddies may well qualify, apart from the fact i don't believe he lives on his boat.

Hmmm.....

Believe it or not I have no interest in a fight here. However;my reference to council tax etc is based on nothing other than the fact that it is exactly what I`d do if I lived in a terrace in Bradford or a mansion in Shropshire . It`s the norm . My self percieved ordinariness is only in the context of this discussion - and I don`t really think Ana is much interested in a community like Dadfords` Wharf where the only thing that apparently seperates us from our immediate neighbours is that our homes float .If I`m wrong in that assumption I apologize - but only to Ana.

I have to resent theDaily Mail reference - but I don`t expect you to know why because you very clearlydon`t know me - and I feel no need to defend a position that I`m not actually occupying.

As to my"untrained eye"( now whos being presumptious) seeing communities and mistaking them as "simply another groupof people"- what else are they precisely? As it happens in my book there is no such thing as "simply another group of people" and you accuse me of reading the bleedin` mail......

[Phil Speight]

Are you proposing that mention of the Daily Mail should be classed as a corollary to Godwin's Law.

 

I don't have any argument, I am simply mystified that a request, as made by the OP, should have excited such derision when at least 3 posters have made serious answers and understand, fully, the request.

 

I am now, however, seriously interested in the distinction Phil Speight makes between what he sees as a community based around boats and why that should not be classed as one from the OP's question - i don't believe this off-topic.

 

I would be interested in Ana's view on this.

Simple - I`m surprised it needs to be said atall. There are many reasons for living on boats, one of them is through an interest in the canal and it`s history/heritage whatever . Another is because it`s convenient for work.Another is a combination of the two and thenthere are all the others. They are often entirely seperate and unrelated in anyarea other than that the members of the community live on boats. It is my belief that I have nothing in common with scores of my fellow boat dwellers other than that one thing - and they with me. It doesn`t mean we condemn each other , if we met about our daily lives we may get on well and happily or not. The nature of our dwellings though is not enough common ground on it`s ownto forge relationships. It is perfectly possible for someonewith one major interest to be totally uninterested in someone who doesn`t share it - boat or no boat. I am entirely convinced that this particular community is not what Ana is looking for and there are many more, quite probably the majority.Sorry if that is presumptious of me , and sorrier still if I`m wrong - but there you go.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Phil Speight

[debbifiggy]

Ana, I don't think you'll have to look very far to find boaters like that in London. As mentioned before Hackney is a good starting point. Many of the boaters come from a squatting/anarchist/truck/caravan dwelling and even traveller background, many have known each other for decades. They might move around quite a bit (freelance jobs take them to different towns and cities), but I'd say they are definately a community of sorts. Have never met any circus performers (practising the trapeze is notoriously difficult on a boat), but there are plenty of artists and musicians.

 

I know an acrobat and a dancer who live on a boat in London. Wouldn't say they were part of an artistic community though unless you include some of the neighbours who are artists of a different variety, mainly in the local pub

D

 

Forgot to say that I used to be a dancer and appeared in a couple of films. I'm more fairy elephant these days than Suger Plum fairy

Edited January 12, 2009 by debbifiggy

[journeyperson]

Not all boating artists are liveaboards. Last summer on the Bridgewater, most weekends I would see day boats full of artists - p*ss artists, and they provided excellent entertainment.

[Phil Speight]

Simple - I`m surprised it needs to be said atall. There are many reasons for living on boats, one of them is through an interest in the canal and it`s history/heritage whatever . Another is because it`s convenient for work.Another is a combination of the two and thenthere are all the others. They are often entirely seperate and unrelated in anyarea other than that the members of the community live on boats. It is my belief that I have nothing in common with scores of my fellow boat dwellers other than that one thing - and they with me. It doesn`t mean we condemn each other , if we met about our daily lives we may get on well and happily or not. The nature of our dwellings though is not enough common ground on it`s ownto forge "relationships". It is perfectly possible for someonewith one major interest to be totally uninterested in someone who doesn`t share it - boat or no boat.

Thought I`d mention - since I will doubtless be savaged with a rolled up Guardian any minute ( sorry - I`m being presumptious again - or maybe it`s A JOKE - oh yes ,and of course we all pay our licenses and our council tax don`t we folks ) I`m off to my Highland retreat early tomorrow and will not be doing any computering. This is one of the many pleasures of being a bloated capitalist Daily Mail reader.

Or maybe it`s very very cheap and it`s as far away from the English canal system as I can get. Funny that - I feel more at home up there after 4 months than I do where I have lived and worked for the past 30 years. What`s happened? Oh and of course - that`ll be TWO lots of council tax to be virtuous about. I`ll fight back/capitulate/ignore all this next week.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Phil Speight

[Roger Gunkel]

As you have been told already that you are wrong, there are such communities, I am not sure why you keep saying they don't exist.

 

As i said before i am not attacking you, Roger Gunkel, but i stand by my right to disagree with you. I am quite mystified why you should take such offence rather than debating the issues.

 

and disagree with you i do.

 

There are people, who live in communities on boats who make their living by performing arts, there are also people who live in communities on boats who are exploring ways of low impact living.

 

Just because you close your eyes to those possibilities doesn't make them not true.

 

 

I don't understand Chris Pink why you want to spend your tme disagreeing and bickering about what I think. As someone else said, you are becoming very boring.

 

Why not just ignore completely what I say and get on with making your own observations about what Ana is looking for. I can only speak from my own experience and no matter how much you bitch about it, that is still my own experience from a lifetime as an entertainer and four years as a boat dweller. Please talk about your own experiences and stop bickering about mine.

 

Roger

[Chris Pink]

I don't understand Chris Pink why you want to spend your tme disagreeing and bickering about what I think. As someone else said, you are becoming very boring.

 

Why not just ignore completely what I say and get on with making your own observations about what Ana is looking for. I can only speak from my own experience and no matter how much you bitch about it, that is still my own experience from a lifetime as an entertainer and four years as a boat dweller. Please talk about your own experiences and stop bickering about mine.

 

Roger

 

It pisses me off that you, and some others like you, can't discuss an issue without such attacks and paranoia.

 

If you want to see what I say as bickering and bitching so be it.

[madcat]

Lilo web site, cant remember how I found it but I have their site bookmarked and drop in occasionally for encouragment and inspiration.Hubby and I have been slowly working on being more green since 1997 when we moved house,in a way we started in 1989 when we started insulating our bungalow way more than usual for the time and purchased double glazing with K glass which keeps the heat in better.Whats this got to do with Ana's question well bear with me a bit.We are very ordinary too .Allthough we pay all the usual bills I do get collared by the daily mail types on occasion when out on the boat and asked if I live on board.Amazingly the dreaded council tax subject rears its little head along with the continuous cruising debate.Wonder if Phil has maybe had the same assumptions made about him? it does get a bit wearing.

Andy, keep up the "dad dancing" when youve had a few scoops,cheers.

Chris,woe is me I have Daily Mail parents.

Margaret Thatcher ,was it her who said theres no such thing as community.I wonder is it communities we belong to. The canal world can be very small in some ways. I always felt that if I fell in in Ellesmere Port then somebody in the midlands who knows me will have heard about it before I got my vest dry.

Im curious now how everybody on here feels about community,Ana I wish you luck

[Dominic M]

Thought I`d mention - since I will doubtless be savaged with a rolled up Guardian any minute ( sorry - I`m being presumptious again - or maybe it`s A JOKE - oh yes ,and of course we all pay our licenses and our council tax don`t we folks ) I`m off to my Highland retreat early tomorrow and will not be doing any computering. This is one of the many pleasures of being a bloated capitalist Daily Mail reader.

Or maybe it`s very very cheap and it`s as far away from the English canal system as I can get. Funny that - I feel more at home up there after 4 months than I do where I have lived and worked for the past 30 years. What`s happened? Oh and of course - that`ll be TWO lots of council tax to be virtuous about. I`ll fight back/capitulate/ignore all this next week.

The Guardian Education Supplement can inflict particularly severe injuries.

[Phil Speight]

It pisses me off that you, and some others like you, can't discuss an issue without such attacks and paranoia.

 

If you want to see what I say as bickering and bitching so be it.

Chris - to be calm a moment as my final contribution ( if such it is ), and trusting that you aren`t actually joking with the above, is this. After your response to me earlier I certainly felt as though I was being attacked and that inevitably coloured my response to you. Bit of a vicious circle isn`t it. My REAL final contribution , having said as much as I feel I can without being typecast and having my feelings pigeon-holed further , is ta-ra. I`ll look this up again next week.

 

Lilo web site, cant remember how I found it but I have their site bookmarked and drop in occasionally for encouragment and inspiration.Hubby and I have been slowly working on being more green since 1997 when we moved house,in a way we started in 1989 when we started insulating our bungalow way more than usual for the time and purchased double glazing with K glass which keeps the heat in better.Whats this got to do with Ana's question well bear with me a bit.We are very ordinary too .Allthough we pay all the usual bills I do get collared by the daily mail types on occasion when out on the boat and asked if I live on board.Amazingly the dreaded council tax subject rears its little head along with the continuous cruising debate.Wonder if Phil has maybe had the same assumptions made about him? it does get a bit wearing.

Andy, keep up the "dad dancing" when youve had a few scoops,cheers.

Chris,woe is me I have Daily Mail parents.

Margaret Thatcher ,was it her who said theres no such thing as community.I wonder is it communities we belong to. The canal world can be very small in some ways. I always felt that if I fell in in Ellesmere Port then somebody in the midlands who knows me will have heard about it before I got my vest dry.

Im curious now how everybody on here feels about community,Ana I wish you luck

Gotcha ! So this is where you`ve been hiding ! Hiya T... thanks for the letter - it would be lovely to see the two of you soon. Do you remember Margaret Thatcher actually being at EllesmerePort ? She lent on my right shoulder as was I signwriting Shad and said "..........................

[Dominic M]

Lilo web site, cant remember how I found it but I have their site bookmarked and drop in occasionally for encouragment and inspiration.Hubby and I have been slowly working on being more green since 1997 when we moved house,in a way we started in 1989 when we started insulating our bungalow way more than usual for the time and purchased double glazing with K glass which keeps the heat in better.Whats this got to do with Ana's question well bear with me a bit.We are very ordinary too .Allthough we pay all the usual bills I do get collared by the daily mail types on occasion when out on the boat and asked if I live on board.Amazingly the dreaded council tax subject rears its little head along with the continuous cruising debate.Wonder if Phil has maybe had the same assumptions made about him? it does get a bit wearing.

Andy, keep up the "dad dancing" when youve had a few scoops,cheers.

Chris,woe is me I have Daily Mail parents.

Margaret Thatcher ,was it her who said theres no such thing as community.I wonder is it communities we belong to. The canal world can be very small in some ways. I always felt that if I fell in in Ellesmere Port then somebody in the midlands who knows me will have heard about it before I got my vest dry.

Im curious now how everybody on here feels about community,Ana I wish you luck

I think it was, "There is no such thing as society."

 

But then she also said, "We are a grandmother."

 

Both are still mystifying!

[Roger Gunkel]

It pisses me off that you, and some others like you, can't discuss an issue without such attacks and paranoia.

 

If you want to see what I say as bickering and bitching so be it.

 

It pisses me off Mr Pink that you even have the gall to say this. I had absolutely no intention to come on this thread to fight, and have quite clearly said why in my opinion Ana will be unlikely to find a community that she appears to be looking for. The paranoia is all yours I'm afraid

 

It was you who who initiated the attack on me. Yo have quite clearly stated that I am WRONG! You have also accused me of suggesting that circus and street performers and performance artists are all low life hippies of some sort, which I clearly have not said. You have also attacked others who disagree with you by accusing them of being Daily Mail readers. I have never read the Daily Mail in my life, but presume that they display a political standpoint that you disagree with. So presumably anybody who dares to read it would be WRONG also. If they make a statement which you see as being Daily Mail style, then they are accused as being a reader which is obviously meant as an insult.

 

It is you who are upsetting the applecart, by not allowing alternative viewpoints. As I now realise how totally wrong I am and accept the error of my ways, please let us know where these boat dwelling communities of travelling entertainers are, so that me may all learn. So far the suggestions have been speculation.

 

Meanwhile, a number of contributors have already mentioned that they are or have been artists/musicians and live on boats, but feel that although they are part of a boating commumity, it is no different to any other community with a diverse range of people. If Ana wants to study the boating community that I live in, she is very welcome to and I will be delighted to talk to her as I'm sure will most others on here. As I and my wife are both entertainers and there are others here who are also loosely involved in performance, maybe that is what she is looking for. There are also a number of us who are trying to be self sufficient individually, perhaps that is also what Ana would be interested in. I don't feel from the tone of her OP that she will be, which is what I have been saying, but it doesn't stop me from being perfectly happy to talk to her about it, whilst expressing my doubts.

 

Grahoom mentioned a possibility for her to follow and Lady Muck also mentioned boats in Hackney that she felt would be occupied by 'squatting/anarchist/truck/caravan dwelling and even traveller background people'. I assume that her suggestion is that people that Ana is looking for may come from that background. That may well be true, but having been severely castigated for going near that subject, I don't want to die under an avalanche of Daily Mails.

 

I think that my own and other contributions with a generally similar point of view are equally valuable to Ana in how she thinks about boating communities and what constitutes a community is very worthy of debate. I find practically all the contributions on this thread to be perfectly valid, with the exceptions of personal attacks which were not of my instigation.

 

As I said before Ana I am always happy to talk, but am unlikely to be what you are looking for.

 

Roger

[madcat]

You will be right on that Dominic,my memory is a bit wooly.Both are as you say mystifying

Phil I do indeed remember Maggies visit.We were on Cuddington, Boris took a day off work to run the engine while the visitor was doing her walkabout.Somewhere I have a few photos.Im not sure but I think Bridgets dog Sylvester might have tagged on to the end of the walkabout.Pity things have gone so wrong for the museum now.That was a good mix of people living on boats, Ambridge next the Ship Canal !

Have fun , be happy.

[Yoda]

Is this another cabin fever thread?

 

Come on stick to the question does anyone know of waterbourne communities? Answer = Wasn't there one at Jericho?

[David Schweizer]

I did, by PM, I was unsure whether the people involved would want me to subject them to the kind of abuse that this seemingly harmless request has attracted. One of them will no doubty be familiar to yourself as a resident of fair Bradford-on-Avon. (think Beowulf)

 

Another was mentioned by Grahoom, no secret as they have a website and therefore are in the public domain.

 

Sounding like Margerat Thatcher, gosh, that will enter the Pink family annals as a unique and amusing insult (if that was what was intended).

It did occur to me that you may have sent Ana a PM, but the irony of associating you with Margaret Thatcher rather amused me. Sorry about that.

 

Oh by the way, don't go too hard on Phil Speight, he is a seriously good bloke, and far more radical than he sometimes pretends to be. His problem is he has a big grumpy streak.

[Ana]

Simple - I`m surprised it needs to be said atall. There are many reasons for living on boats, one of them is through an interest in the canal and it`s history/heritage whatever . Another is because it`s convenient for work.Another is a combination of the two and thenthere are all the others. They are often entirely seperate and unrelated in anyarea other than that the members of the community live on boats. It is my belief that I have nothing in common with scores of my fellow boat dwellers other than that one thing - and they with me. It doesn`t mean we condemn each other , if we met about our daily lives we may get on well and happily or not. The nature of our dwellings though is not enough common ground on it`s ownto forge relationships. It is perfectly possible for someonewith one major interest to be totally uninterested in someone who doesn`t share it - boat or no boat. I am entirely convinced that this particular community is not what Ana is looking for and there are many more, quite probably the majority.Sorry if that is presumptious of me , and sorrier still if I`m wrong - but there you go.

 

I'd like to start by saying thanks to Phil for posting a bit about himself and I wanted to tell him: OK this is interesting that you feel your community is not what I'm looking for, that makes me interested..especially after how you've presented yourself.

 

Adding to Chris's comment about the taxes etc, I wanted to say also that I'm not looking for alternative communities that specifically don't pay their taxes or that do. For me that's a personal choice people make in their lives and it has nothing to do with me. Obviously it's going to have an impact on how you go about with your lives (for example how many times you have to move locations) but that's part of your personal story.

 

It seems you Phil, have done quite a few different things and have then centered your life on the canal. And also the fact that in your community you fix boats, paint them etc. I mean in the end we all end up having 'normal' lives, because they're our lives. But many times people that look at your life as outsiders will pick up on things that you no longer notice. What I'm saying is that in the end it's not about what you do but how you do it, for example the group dynamics of the people you work with could be really something unique. And the fact that you say that just because you've all got something that unifies you (the physical boat) doesn't really give you common ground with many of the other people except for the pure fact you both own a boat. But it doesn't make your personal story more or less interesting, or your experience of the community for that matter.

 

Hey, I've set out looking for alternative communities and what I could end up finding are individuals that are not part of one, but that are living alternatively lives and that live mostly in isolation!! - and that would be fine.

 

Thanks to everyone for the discussion so far, it's being very helpful for me

 

ana

[Roger Gunkel]

Thankyou for responding Ana

 

Roger