More About Ingress Of Rain Into Open Sterns

[FORTUNATA]

I found a place that sells canvases for boat coverings today. It's really quite cheap to buy the actual canvas or curtain. Where I'm not so sure is how to fix up a frame. The guy said to come back once a frame had been fixed up around the stern and then he'd measure up the canvas.

Thus, I have an open stern area with an engine below the boards and I want to put an end to rain pouring into the bilge around the engine and batteries. Options are either drainage or a covering.

Suggestion are welcome as to how to fit a frame. What I have is a cabin door but the space between the door and tiller is all open around the top, sides and aft. What's the best material to use for the frame? Should it be welded to the boat or drilled and then screwed into position?

Anyone consider it a good idea to just hire a pram cover firm to fit the whole thing or is it really just too expensive?

I'm not really a DIY man. I've done a bit of fibreglass work and fitting in engines as well as painting and blacking but I'm not a welder or skilled with steel work. I suppose I could fefinitely come up with some kind of frame but it would be nice if I had something to compare with and I don't.

[wonderdust]

Personally i would try and find a way of having a drainage system installed, as you will not have the cover on all the time! Either welded channel or maybe ali or galvanized channel possibly riveted and silicone the ends as a cheaper way.

 

The frame on ours is made of ali tube with swivel fixings screwed to the boat this allows the frame to be lowered when no cover is on, ours is a pram cover so the tube is curved. Not something i would try myself expensive if you get it wrong!

 

If the back has no rails at all you need to have the metalwork curved, look like a dog's otherwise, fairly strong and rigid, so welded would be better which would be steel, i dont see the type of ali tube that is used on ours as being strong enough to last that long!

 

Is this the type of cover you are looking for, or a pram type?

 

Edited December 10, 2008 by wonderdust

[saltysplash]

My first Nb was an old Harborough boat circa 1973 without any stern rail. We had a cover fitted over the back with straps using hooks and eyes to fix it into position over the hatch and down the sides of the superstructure, then 'pushfit' fixings around the stern. The tiller arm was fixed solid and so acted as the apex of the cover negating any need for a frame.

 

If however you wish the cover to also act as kinda porch then a pram hood style is best

[ChrisPy]

I suffer from a similar problem on my scouseboat which has a big open aft deck and a huge engine cover in 3 pieces supported on very shallow channel (about 50mm x 20mm which means the valley is only about 14mm deep). I don't know if that is part of the problem.

 

The edge of the deck boards (phenolic ply) has deteriorated to some extent. It is possible that the water may run over the edge and migrate underneath before it falls off. It didn't happen when the boat was new.

 

I am considering welding a flat strip upstand to the inside edge of the channel to deepen the valley, and to fix a lip under the edge of the deckboards (probably when I replace them in a year or two) to provide what house-builders call a 'drip'. Actually they would cut a recess which has the same effect. Look at timber external window sills on a house to get the idea.

[OptedOut]

On our first boat, (shared) we used to rig the pole from roof to back rail and drop a square tarpaulin over the top., (with water bottle weights). Must have looked like Gypo's.

[Gary Peacock]

Self draining decks believe it or not are a legal requirement under the RCD!

 

3.4. Openings in hull, deck and superstructure

Openings in hull, deck(s) and superstructure shall not impair the structural integrity of the craft or its weathertight integrity when closed. Windows, portlights, doors and hatchcovers shall withstand the water pressure likely to be encountered in their specific position.

 

3.5. Flooding

All craft shall be designed so as to minimise the risk of sinking. Particular attention should be paid where appropriate to:

- cockpits and wells, which should be self-draining or have other means of keeping water out of the boat interior.

 

Obviously this is geared towards more serious waters but rain water entering the boat can hardly be weathertight in any form.

 

On a boat that is newish and CE marked it might be worth having a word in the builders ear about RCD conformity and who's name is actually on your Declaration of Conformity!

Edited December 10, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[AlanH]

I found a place that sells canvases for boat coverings today. It's really quite cheap to buy the actual canvas or curtain. Where I'm not so sure is how to fix up a frame. The guy said to come back once a frame had been fixed up around the stern and then he'd measure up the canvas.

Thus, I have an open stern area with an engine below the boards and I want to put an end to rain pouring into the bilge around the engine and batteries. Options are either drainage or a covering.

Suggestion are welcome as to how to fit a frame. What I have is a cabin door but the space between the door and tiller is all open around the top, sides and aft. What's the best material to use for the frame? Should it be welded to the boat or drilled and then screwed into position?

Anyone consider it a good idea to just hire a pram cover firm to fit the whole thing or is it really just too expensive?

I'm not really a DIY man. I've done a bit of fibreglass work and fitting in engines as well as painting and blacking but I'm not a welder or skilled with steel work. I suppose I could fefinitely come up with some kind of frame but it would be nice if I had something to compare with and I don't.

If you have a stern rail, then you don't need a frame . Ours is a one piece cover which fastens to the cabin roof and the stern rail. It cost £600 fitted from Coverit. A pram hood is more likely to cost about £1500

[Machpoint005]

If you have a stern rail, then you don't need a frame . Ours is a one piece cover which fastens to the cabin roof and the stern rail. It cost £600 fitted from Coverit. A pram hood is more likely to cost about £1500

Ours too. Coverit thoroughly recommended - they just replaced our cratch cover.

[FORTUNATA]

I'm open to either drainage or a covering. Any practical covering would be suitable. Today I took a look at another narrowboat that already had a pram cover to get some ideas. I think I could come up with something and the canvas I can get cheap.

Drainage, nevertheless, is an option. All I have at the moment is wooden boards as I've said before on the other threads I raised. Water creeps through the boards, swirls around the engine bilge area and the bilge pump is active throughout the week, reducing levels of water and pumping it through the drain hole. The snag with that is I took a battery reading today and it appears the batteries are just betwen red and green so I suspect they're losing charge.

Have you any idea how much the boatbuilders would charge for a drainage system? Would this keep the battery area and, indeed, the bilge itself dry?

 

 

Personally i would try and find a way of having a drainage system installed, as you will not have the cover on all the time! Either welded channel or maybe ali or galvanized channel possibly riveted and silicone the ends as a cheaper way.

 

The frame on ours is made of ali tube with swivel fixings screwed to the boat this allows the frame to be lowered when no cover is on, ours is a pram cover so the tube is curved. Not something i would try myself expensive if you get it wrong!

 

If the back has no rails at all you need to have the metalwork curved, look like a dog's otherwise, fairly strong and rigid, so welded would be better which would be steel, i dont see the type of ali tube that is used on ours as being strong enough to last that long!

 

Is this the type of cover you are looking for, or a pram type?

 

 

 

If it works, then that's O.K. as a temporary measure. I'm actually quite good at sheeting up boats that no longer have their stern covers. The snag is, once I sheet one up, it takes 15 minutes to unsheet and used to take me 30 minutes to sheet back up again. And once I fell into the canal in the process.

To sheet up a boat that has nothing, you can run a large pole from cabin door to tiller and then tighten a sheet like a tent around the pole so it slants both sides downwards. No rain gets in. It just bounces off and over the sides. But it's time consuming.

 

On our first boat, (shared) we used to rig the pole from roof to back rail and drop a square tarpaulin over the top., (with water bottle weights). Must have looked like Gypo's.

[Roger Gunkel]

Welding in drainage channel should be quite straightforward. As you have been having overplating carried out, have you not asked the welders what they would charge for putting in some channelling, as I sugested on one of your other threads?

 

Roger

[ThePiglet]

I had a similar problem with my boat in that there was no provision for drainage from the stern deck when I bought it.

I got hold of a bit of firm canvas (like the good old trailer cover stuff) and a set of push fit poppers from ebay and made my own.

I glued the edges over double and used my mum's sewing machine on a long stitch and some nylon thread, then put on the poppers.

The popper bases are screwed into tapped holed around the top of the cabin and the back rail.

It's now bone dry inside. Cost £20 maybe less.

 

Edited December 11, 2008 by ThePiglet

[ChrisPy]

Self draining decks believe it or not are a legal requirement under the RCD!

 

3.4. Openings in hull, deck and superstructure

Openings in hull, deck(s) and superstructure shall not impair the structural integrity of the craft or its weathertight integrity when closed. Windows, portlights, doors and hatchcovers shall withstand the water pressure likely to be encountered in their specific position.

 

3.5. Flooding

All craft shall be designed so as to minimise the risk of sinking. Particular attention should be paid where appropriate to:

- cockpits and wells, which should be self-draining or have other means of keeping water out of the boat interior.

 

Obviously this is geared towards more serious waters but rain water entering the boat can hardly be weathertight in any form.

 

On a boat that is newish and CE marked it might be worth having a word in the builders ear about RCD conformity and who's name is actually on your Declaration of Conformity!

as you say, this is not aimed at annoying drips of rainwater, because the purpose of the standard is defined as avoiding flooding and sinking.

[FORTUNATA]

You may have a slight problem here. If the canvas isn't really tight it will sink in with rain and you'll get one very large puddle in the centre. I already found a place that sells the canvas and quite cheap, suitable for lorries and wagons. I can forward the address if anyone is interested later on.

However, they don't do the frames and told me I'd need a frame. I looked at one or two other boats and the simplest idea I have is to use copper tubing and run the tubes from above the cabin door (each side) to the tiller area (at the sides). Then have a cross tube between these for support. Then all I need to do is pull the canvas across and fasten buckles onto fittings at the sides. For that, I need to do a bit of drilling. Maybe it would also be good if the tubes used for the frame are made easily removable so they just slot into fittings screwed around key areas. This would be a very basic design.

The main thing is the canvas must reach a point in the middle and then slant each side and that way there is no way rain will get through. Even if it pours down it will just bounce off and roll down the sides. I can then dry out my engine area and batteries.

 

I had a similar problem with my boat in that there was no provision for drainage from the stern deck when I bought it.

I got hold of a bit of firm canvas (like the good old trailer cover stuff) and a set of push fit poppers from ebay and made my own.

I glued the edges over double and used my mum's sewing machine on a long stitch and some nylon thread, then put on the poppers.

The popper bases are screwed into tapped holed around the top of the cabin and the back rail.

It's now bone dry inside. Cost £20 maybe less.

 

 

 

I'll find out when I go down. I've been busy blacking and am now moving onto the next item on the list which is getting everything dry. The mind boggles as to why none of this has ever been done in the past.

 

Welding in drainage channel should be quite straightforward. As you have been having overplating carried out, have you not asked the welders what they would charge for putting in some channelling, as I sugested on one of your other threads?

 

Roger

[alan_fincher]

Or there's what this guy has gone for....

 

 

 

It may be his form of protest that thwe marina has now banned having storage boxes on dry land, next to your boat.

 

I'm not sure whether I'm expecting a troop of Scouts or Girl Guides to appear, or whether it's more in this kind of style....

 

[FORTUNATA]

I thought of using a tent before but more so just the frames and then wrapping normal boat canvas around it. What he's done there will work fine. Really quite a good idea but the problem with that system is people are going to laugh and say, "It's a tent on a boat!" I think to avoid ridicule what he should do now is just cover his tent canvas with the glossy lorry curtain material and then nobody would know. It would be every bit as good as a professional pram cover but at a cost of, say, 90 pounds (as opposed to 1,500 pounds!!)

Here's the idea I have: I found a plumbers retail that does lengths of copper tubing and various fittings. I could use this tubing to make a frame over the stern. The main problem I have, though, is the boat has a liftable helmsman hatch by the entrance door and you have to lift this in order to open the door. So, the difficulty will arise in how to secure the covering from inside the boat at that area when I go to bed. The only way, I suppose, is to have the frame high enough to allow the hatch to lift upwards.

However, I must admit this tent idea has me intrigued and it could be a solution if I canvas on top of the tent for a second layer.

 

 

Or there's what this guy has gone for....

 

 

 

It may be his form of protest that thwe marina has now banned having storage boxes on dry land, next to your boat.

 

I'm not sure whether I'm expecting a troop of Scouts or Girl Guides to appear, or whether it's more in this kind of style....

 

[RLWP]

Here's the idea I have: I found a plumbers retail that does lengths of copper tubing and various fittings. I could use this tubing to make a frame over the stern.

 

You will find the copper tube is too soft to make any sensible frame. Unless you have a lot of bars and braces as soon as you have the frame up and try to put the cover on, it will collapse.

 

Why not construct one using wood? Treated lath for holding roof tiles is not very expensive.

 

Richard

 

I've tried using copper tube as a structural material before.

[grahoom]

I quite like that tent idea.

[ChrisPy]

You will find the copper tube is too soft to make any sensible frame. Unless you have a lot of bars and braces as soon as you have the frame up and try to put the cover on, it will collapse.

 

Why not construct one using wood? Treated lath for holding roof tiles is not very expensive.

 

Richard

 

I've tried using copper tube as a structural material before.

I was considering using 28mm tube and solder fittings to make a frame. That should be rigid enough, don't you think?

[RLWP]

I was considering using 28mm tube and solder fittings to make a frame. That should be rigid enough, don't you think?

 

When we replumbed the house I took all of the old 15, 22 and 28mm stuff away to be recycled by folding it up and putting it in the car. If the pipe had a soldered elbow then you could easily bend it through that. If not, you laid the pipe on the floor, put your foot on it and picked the end up to fold it in half.

 

I wouldn't use it structurally. It's weak and expensive.

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

He may well have been ridiculed as the biggest prat on the cut but this is a very good job he's done. This set-up is every bit as good as a professional pram cover but would have cost about 150 quid max as opposed to 1500 quid - a huge saving. My only advice would be to secure the whole structure with a covering of blue lorry canvas which you can get cheap so it would then be less obvious that it's a tent on a boat. It will certainly do the job and keep his engine and bilge area dry. I'm going to shop around for tents as this is a good idea.

 

I quite like that tent idea.

[grahoom]

He may well have been ridiculed as the biggest prat on the cut but this is a very good job he's done. This set-up is every bit as good as a professional pram cover but would have cost about 150 quid max as opposed to 1500 quid - a huge saving. My only advice would be to secure the whole structure with a covering of blue lorry canvas which you can get cheap so it would then be less obvious that it's a tent on a boat. It will certainly do the job and keep his engine and bilge area dry. I'm going to shop around for tents as this is a good idea.

 

you can get a two man canvas pup tent for around 30 quid.

 

have a search around the army surplus sites.

[FORTUNATA]

I think what I may do is just use the frame of a tent and then use a different canvas. I'll try and print that pic out, go to the store so they have some idea of what I plan to do via the pic, and take measurements.

I used to have a tent ages ago and went camping with it in Northern Spain. I made the mistake of packing it back up still damp and it got mildew in the canvas later on and was ruined.

 

you can get a two man canvas pup tent for around 30 quid.

 

have a search around the army surplus sites.

[FORTUNATA]

I think I'll give this a go. The only snag is when cruising you'd need to remove the whole thing, or at least the canvas to get at the tiller. Then, at the end of the day, just slot everything back into place.

Last night the rain over here was horrendous and today I see some areas and homes were flooded and emergency services called out. My bilge pump must have been on all night so the sooner I up and buy a tent the better.

 

Or there's what this guy has gone for....

 

 

 

It may be his form of protest that thwe marina has now banned having storage boxes on dry land, next to your boat.

 

I'm not sure whether I'm expecting a troop of Scouts or Girl Guides to appear, or whether it's more in this kind of style....

 

[John Orentas]

Hi Forty.

 

If you insist on going down this road, (though I would have thought you would have more important things to do). When I was a lad it was possible to buy surplus US 'Bivy' tents, very heavy duty, open at one end they would be ideal.

 

A very heavy nights rain will only be in the order of an inch of water, not exactly Noah's flood.

[FORTUNATA]

More modern narrowboats have steel plated stern floors whereas mine only has wooden boards. I'm sure the boat does have emergency drain outlets (one is the bilge pump exit) but it's not ideal. First I'll take measurements of the area to be covered and then I'll try and find a simple tent with the right frame. I may modify the frame if possible to make it look a bit more "boatish" in shape. Very possibly instead of the supplied tent canvas I'll use lorry curtain which I can get for 45 pounds.

I do think some of the hood and cover firms are making a lot of money out oof folks with money to spare. I spoke to one operation and they wanted 200 pounds just to cover the canvas and fitting of the canvas, assuming a frame was already fitted. Well, I can get the canvas for less than 50 pounds.

 

Hi Forty.

 

If you insist on going down this road, (though I would have thought you would have more important things to do). When I was a lad it was possible to buy surplus US 'Bivy' tents, very heavy duty, open at one end they would be ideal.

 

A very heavy nights rain will only be in the order of an inch of water, not exactly Noah's flood.