WEBASTO NIGHTMARE UPDATE!

[alan_fincher]

Something is not at all right here.....

 

Ordinary gas oil, (which is what the vast majority of 'red' being sold canalside is), is normally quoted as having up to 1000 parts per million of sulphur.

 

Ultra low sulphur gas oil, (which I think is rarely going to be sold canalside), is more typically quoted as under 50 parts per million of sulphur.

 

So the ordinary stuff, (from my understanding) may contain typically twenty times more sulphur as the ULS stuff.

 

 

Note the exact numbers vary depending upon who's product spec sheets you look at, but not enough to alter the fact that the basic gas oil product is at least an order of magnitude more "dirty" than the ULS gas oil.

 

I'm still waiting for anybody that can point me at anything that confirms the statement made that canalside outlets will switch to the ULS product from November 1st. Even if that were going to be beneficial, I'm not sure I can see it happening. Any evidence for this statement, please ?

[magnetman]

Something is not at all right here.....

 

Ordinary gas oil, (which is what the vast majority of 'red' being sold canalside is), is normally quoted as having up to 1000 parts per million of sulphur.

 

Ultra low sulphur gas oil, (which I think is rarely going to be sold canalside), is more typically quoted as under 50 parts per million of sulphur.

 

So the ordinary stuff, (from my understanding) may contain typically twenty times more sulphur as the ULS stuff.

 

 

Note the exact numbers vary depending upon who's product spec sheets you look at, but not enough to alter the fact that the basic gas oil product is at least an order of magnitude more "dirty" than the ULS gas oil.

 

I'm still waiting for anybody that can point me at anything that confirms the statement made that canalside outlets will switch to the ULS product from November 1st. Even if that were going to be beneficial, I'm not sure I can see it happening. Any evidence for this statement, please ?

 

sounds to me like they meant 0.1% sulphur, which would be 1 part in 1000 or 1000 ppm

 

I don't know if waterside fuel outlets will be selling good quality stuff from November but I'm planning to buy DERV soon because I can see petrol stations having a higher turnover, cleaner tanks and less likelihood of rubbish in the fuel and if the price is similar the extra agro is worth it. And they won't be recording my boat name like the boatyards do...

[David]

Hi

Something does seem wrong, but what, here are the links to the Greenerergy tech sheets which are to the EN or BS standard which would be the same for all the fuel distributors.

The EN 590 "white"

http://www.greenergy.com/Products/Product_specs/diesel.pdf

 

The standard grade Gasoil BS 2869

http://www.greenergy.com/Products/Product_specs/gasoil.pdf

 

The Ultra low sulpher Gasoil BS 2869 and EN 590

http://www.greenergy.com/Products/Product_specs/ULSG.pdf

 

Also one to ConocoPhilips/Jet UK for Gasoil BS 2869

http://www.conocophillips.co.uk/NR/rdonlyr...B78/0/jetgo.PDF

 

And ConocoPhilips/Jet UK for Sulpher free EN 590

http://www.conocophillips.co.uk/NR/rdonlyr...ELTOBSEN590.pdf

 

and I'm still confused by the sulpher content !!!!!!!!!!!

 

I don't think for one minuet they will start to sell low sulpher red, if you do the sums and take of the 17.5%vat and 57p tax on white then do the same for gasoil 5%vat and 9p tax, gasoil is dearer for a must be cheaper product, hence better profit margin for refinery.

david

Edited August 17, 2008 by David

[Roger Gunkel]

This is all very technical and totally fascinating, but I'm not quite sure what the point is.

 

The discussion at the moment seems to be about what the quality of available fuel is likely to be and what the quality of red diesel is at the moment. I might be missing something, but I can't see how that actually matters. If we are talking about the suitability of fuel for diesel heaters, then it has already been established that they will only run to manufacturers performance specs on EN590. It also seems to be reasonable to assume that nobody seems to have a problem running their engines on the fuel currently available and presumably on what will be available soon. So if you want to run a diesel heater of the Webasto/Eberspacher type, make sure the fuel you are giving it is EN590 or better, which is currently not available on the waterways, or get a different heater.

Am I oversimplifying the problem?

 

Roger

[magnetman]

This is all very technical and totally fascinating, but I'm not quite sure what the point is.

 

The discussion at the moment seems to be about what the quality of available fuel is likely to be and what the quality of red diesel is at the moment. I might be missing something, but I can't see how that actually matters. If we are talking about the suitability of fuel for diesel heaters, then it has already been established that they will only run to manufacturers performance specs on EN590. It also seems to be reasonable to assume that nobody seems to have a problem running their engines on the fuel currently available and presumably on what will be available soon. So if you want to run a diesel heater of the Webasto/Eberspacher type, make sure the fuel you are giving it is EN590 or better, which is currently not available on the waterways, or get a different heater.

Am I oversimplifying the problem?

 

Roger

I think you may be.

I have an eberspacher which runs quite happily on fuel bought from boatyards, which I assume is 'gas oil'. Equally my engine runs quite happily on it but it may shorten the life of my engine and most probably will make the eversplasher unreliable in regular use (I've got a coal fire too ). The point is that customers would like to know what product they are buying and if/when the price of 'red diesel' and DERV become similar some people may be asking why they are being sold the cheapest product (gas oil) for the same price as the most expensive product (DERV). Thats how I see it anyway.

[Trilby Tim]

Must be a typo on the greenenergy Gas Oil datasheet then. If you substitute the units for sulphur content from mg/kg to wt% then it all makes sense. The standard Gasoil has sulphur content of up to 1000 (Greenenergy) or 2000 (Conoco) ppm, the low sulphur Gas oil has sulphur up to 50 ppm and the white road diesel has sulphur up to 10 ppm.

Heaters have problems running standard Gas Oil, which seems to be what's available at canalside pretty much everywhere, engines seem to run OK on it.

Heaters would presumably run fine on the Low sulphur Gas oil as that is to the EN590 standard, and according the the data sheet is pretty much the same as white diesel except for the colour. But low sulphur Gas Oil doesn't seem to be available at the canalside currently. Although it might be when the tax starts coming in. Or it might not be.

Is that about it?

[Roger Gunkel]

I think you may be.

I have an eberspacher which runs quite happily on fuel bought from boatyards, which I assume is 'gas oil'. Equally my engine runs quite happily on it but it may shorten the life of my engine and most probably will make the eversplasher unreliable in regular use (I've got a coal fire too ). The point is that customers would like to know what product they are buying and if/when the price of 'red diesel' and DERV become similar some people may be asking why they are being sold the cheapest product (gas oil) for the same price as the most expensive product (DERV). Thats how I see it anyway.

 

Not sure about the shortening of the engine life, as engines on the waterways seem to go on for ever, probably due to the far lower useage, but wouldn't argue the point due to lack of technical knowledge.

 

I agree with you about knowing the quality of fuel that we buy, as you can bet your life that once prices start to equalise, some outlets will see that as a golden opportunity to charge the highest prices on the cheaper fuel, trading on our ignorance. I think that could be solved quite simply, by making it compulsary to clearly mark the grade of fuel on the pump. Don't vehicle filling stations already do that already or am I dreaming it?

 

Roger

Edited August 17, 2008 by Roger Gunkel

[Guest TerryL]

This is my first post to this forum so hi to everyone and to anyone who already knows of me like Alistair and Gary. I've followed this thread with interest and as a heating and marine engineer etc. etc. would like to put my view on it to either clarify a few points or provoke further argument!

 

Gas oil, red or apparently now yellow diesel that is generally still available is the same stuff we've always had and before low sulfhur fuels was also what you got at the pumps so it's not low quality or in anyway inferior to what it was before. When sulfhur is removed the process alters the fuel and reduces the natural lubricity and aromatics, and alters the density, calorific value and viscocity when kerosene and lubricants are added to give cleaner emissions and a higher cetane rating for modern engines so it is a different fuel to the the common diesel fuel. In effect LSD and ULSD would appear to be somewhere between gas oil and kerosene that can all be used in older diesel engines with the addition of a pump lubricant for pure kerosene.

 

All oil heaters will burn cleaner with 28 sec kerosene (domestic heating oil) for longer than 35 sec gas oil (can also be use for domestic heating except wicks) but for the higher gas oil vaporising pressures needed in domestic pressure jet fuel pumps lubrication is needed. Using low sulfhur diesel onboard would appear to give a good balance for running both the engine and the heating with better viscocity and vaporising qualities than gas oil but this is not available just yet unless you to go to the pumps or use kerosene separately for the heating. Having said that both fuels will need at least an annual service with all year round domestic use with any heater and gas oil will work just as well with a domestic PJ burner if properly installed and set up and is actually quite common and can modulate or run 24/7 according to need. In my opinion the cetane rating or sulphur could never have be an issue with oil burners as there was no alternative but the viscosity and vaporising quality needed definitely is.

 

As far as Webasto and Eberspacher burners with a drip feed go, these have been around for a long time and although ok on diesel for what they were as yacht or vehicle heaters in the original air blown version that could run hotter to keep clean, the subsequent cooler running hydronic water jacket type causes more problems with clean running. This is why they cannot run continously! This type of burner is very crude and does not like starting and stopping which is not clean and causes carbon build up, this normal gets burnt off in a continuous running air blown burner but if it's over powered for the heating requirements then the low running or stop start running prevents sufficient hot running to clean itself. This is worse in the hydronic type that runs cooler and needs to stop before it gets too carboned up, cool right down and start again with a longer hot burn while heating up to clear it, not very clever! Continuous domestic running on gas oil will simply clog it up to a stand still but running with kerosene in the diesel or LSD will prolong the inevitable a bit longer. I've never been a fan but in these small sizes on small boats there's usually no alternative.

 

Another issue which can explain why some people have different experiences is the way they are set up. They are fixed and cannot be altered or adjusted in anyway like a domestic burner and if the exhaust, air intake, voltage or any internal parameters are slightly different then this can make a huge difference to a burner combustion efficiency and one that runs well and one that just won't behave and cokes up. The Mikuni PJ, Hurricane and the Dutch PJ boilers are far better for this and follow the pressure jet principle but they are still not as good or anywhere near as efficient or follow any standard for emissions as a domestic boiler due to the small size and which in reality is not much smaller than an uncased boilerhouse model.

 

It was right to make a claim against the supplier of the Webasto but unfortunately they were a just pawn so don't be too hard, it is the makers and distributors that should bare the responsibilty for selling something which they know cannot do the job of providing domestic heating. Unfortunatly building regulations do not apply to boats and their heating systems so they get away with it but that does not stop anyone demanding the best standard of equipment and installation comparable with a house and much cheaper. I've been banging on about this for years but few take notice!

 

Terry

Edited August 19, 2008 by TerryL

[magnetman]

Thank you for your interesting and informative comments.

[dor]

It was right to make a claim against the supplier of the Webasto but unfortunately they were a just pawn so don't be too hard, it is the makers and distributors that should bare the responsibilty for selling something which they know cannot do the job of providing domestic heating. Unfortunatly building regulations do not apply to boats and their heating systems so they get away with it but that does not stop anyone demanding the best standard of equipment and installation comparable with a house and much cheaper. I've been banging on about this for years but few take notice!

 

I agree with much of what you say, but it is the suppliers, the boat builders and chandlers, that are selling these heaters and they all know they are prone to problems. How many have sold them with the clear instruction to only use a certain type of red diesel? How is a boater to find out what type of diesel they are buying when on the cut (please don't say they should ask the boatyard!)?

 

I think it IS these people who are at fault and it is about time something happened to make them wake up to their responsibilities. As I've said before, with so many reported problems with these heaters on canal boats, I am amazed anyone even considers them.

[magnetman]

I agree with much of what you say, but it is the suppliers, the boat builders and chandlers, that are selling these heaters and they all know they are prone to problems. How many have sold them with the clear instruction to only use a certain type of red diesel? How is a boater to find out what type of diesel they are buying when on the cut (please don't say they should ask the boatyard!)?

 

I think it IS these people who are at fault and it is about time something happened to make them wake up to their responsibilities. As I've said before, with so many reported problems with these heaters on canal boats, I am amazed anyone even considers them.

 

How else would you find out what fuel you were buying??

[dor]

How else would you find out what fuel you were buying??

 

Because they will tell you it is red diesel. Most haven't got a clue what EN number it is.

[Nickhlx]

It seems to me that to be able to run a Webasto heater on DERV 10ppm fuel or even better, Kerosene 28 second fuel is the way to go if it is an option. Kerosene (28 second) domestic heating fuel is around 58p / litre with no duty increase due and it doesn't appear to be or about to be contravening any regulations.

 

Nick

[Trilby Tim]

Can you run an engine off Kerosene 28?

Edited August 21, 2008 by Tim Swait

[Guest TerryL]

Can you run an engine off Kerosene 28?

 

Depends on the engine, older more likely and you need engine oil mixed in to lub the fuel pump, better on diesel.

[magnetman]

It seems to me that to be able to run a Webasto heater on DERV 10ppm fuel or even better, Kerosene 28 second fuel is the way to go if it is an option. Kerosene (28 second) domestic heating fuel is around 58p / litre with no duty increase due and it doesn't appear to be or about to be contravening any regulations.

 

Nick

How much of it do you have to buy to get it for 58p / litre?

[Roger Gunkel]

It would certainly solve a few problems if Webasterspachers were able to run efficiently on Kerosene and in view of the successful court case and current feeling against these heaters, it is about time that the manufacturers came out of hiding and actually told us if it was a suitable fuel.

 

I for one would be happy to install a secondary tank for Kerosene, if the manufacturers actively and publicly supported the use of the fuel.

 

Roger

[Nickhlx]

How much of it do you have to buy to get it for 58p / litre?

 

 

Apologies - I was wrong - I got a quote off Boilerjuice today for 500 litres and it came back at 54p/ltr ( inc VAT and delivery) Apparently crude oil price reduction recently has allowed the price to fall a little.

 

Nick

[magnetman]

Apologies - I was wrong - I got a quote off Boilerjuice today for 500 litres and it came back at 54p/ltr ( inc VAT and delivery) Apparently crude oil price reduction recently has allowed the price to fall a little.

 

Nick

will they deliver it to a boat?

[Colin Smith]

Hi all,

Am new to the site so apologies for jumping in on this one!! Please excuse the preamble but it may help qualify my questions!

 

I’m in the middle of having a new barge built and the heating/hot water specification is now on the agenda. I’ll be living and working on the barge full time so I need a reliable and cost effective solution. Having scanned all of the ‘heating’ threads and followed the Webasto/Eberspächer trials and tribulations on here, I’ve been researching to look for alternatives. This has brought up a number of things all of which have contributed greatly to my confusion and dalliance on making any decisions!

 

It strikes me that all of these units (Webasto, Eberspächer & Mikuni) have similar problems – especially when used for prolonged periods. I’ve also looked at the Hurricane which seems better suited and the Kabola which many people on the cut have made very positive comments about. However, the running costs of a Diesel-fired unit also seem very expensive. At an average of 0.8ltr/hour, for a lot of the time I’ll be using around 5lts a day – maybe more in the depths of winter. So that works out at anything from £2.90-£3.28 per day! This leads me to my first questions:

 

Can anyone give a ‘real’ cost of running a Diesel fired unit and (this is the killer bit) has anyone found a reliable Diesel unit? If so, what?

 

Whilst researching, I’ve also been looking at the relatively new Alde Compact 3010 LPG boiler. Based on the consumption figures from Alde and my own usage estimates, this seems to come out at about £1 per day cheaper to run! Granted there are the safety issues with LPG and humping the bottles about but I have space for 4 x 13Kg bottles (approx 28 days worth). Next questions:

 

Is anyone using the Alde Compact 3010 and if so what has been the experience so far?

 

Just returning to the thread for a moment, I’m involved in motorsport and contaminated fuel is the single biggest killer of engines – or at least the performance. We filter ALL our fuel to take out contaminants and water droplets. When fuel is left stored in tanks – especially for a while like, I suspect, most canal-side fuel bunkers – condensation, rust and general muck will contaminate the fuel. All nicely stirred up when it’s pumped into your tank! So, I’ll be using one of our filters (It’s a big funnel with a special filter in it) which removes all contaminants and water droplets, whenever I fill up. Fuel also 'goes off' after a few weeks of storage and doesn't perform as well - I expect that this applies to Diesel as it does to Petrol. I understand from the answers and comments on here that the sulphur content of ‘Red’ seems to be the killer of the Webasto units (and others) but if they are supposed to run on ‘Red’ could other contaminates be exacerbating the situation?

 

Thanks,

Colin

[Guest TerryL]

Hi all,

Am new to the site so apologies for jumping in on this one!! Please excuse the preamble but it may help qualify my questions!

 

I’m in the middle of having a new barge built and the heating/hot water specification is now on the agenda. I’ll be living and working on the barge full time so I need a reliable and cost effective solution. Having scanned all of the ‘heating’ threads and followed the Webasto/Eberspächer trials and tribulations on here, I’ve been researching to look for alternatives. This has brought up a number of things all of which have contributed greatly to my confusion and dalliance on making any decisions!

 

It strikes me that all of these units (Webasto, Eberspächer & Mikuni) have similar problems – especially when used for prolonged periods. I’ve also looked at the Hurricane which seems better suited and the Kabola which many people on the cut have made very positive comments about. However, the running costs of a Diesel-fired unit also seem very expensive. At an average of 0.8ltr/hour, for a lot of the time I’ll be using around 5lts a day – maybe more in the depths of winter. So that works out at anything from £2.90-£3.28 per day! This leads me to my first questions:

 

Can anyone give a ‘real’ cost of running a Diesel fired unit and (this is the killer bit) has anyone found a reliable Diesel unit? If so, what?

 

Whilst researching, I’ve also been looking at the relatively new Alde Compact 3010 LPG boiler. Based on the consumption figures from Alde and my own usage estimates, this seems to come out at about £1 per day cheaper to run! Granted there are the safety issues with LPG and humping the bottles about but I have space for 4 x 13Kg bottles (approx 28 days worth). Next questions:

 

Is anyone using the Alde Compact 3010 and if so what has been the experience so far?

 

Just returning to the thread for a moment, I’m involved in motorsport and contaminated fuel is the single biggest killer of engines – or at least the performance. We filter ALL our fuel to take out contaminants and water droplets. When fuel is left stored in tanks – especially for a while like, I suspect, most canal-side fuel bunkers – condensation, rust and general muck will contaminate the fuel. All nicely stirred up when it’s pumped into your tank! So, I’ll be using one of our filters (It’s a big funnel with a special filter in it) which removes all contaminants and water droplets, whenever I fill up. Fuel also 'goes off' after a few weeks of storage and doesn't perform as well - I expect that this applies to Diesel as it does to Petrol. I understand from the answers and comments on here that the sulphur content of ‘Red’ seems to be the killer of the Webasto units (and others) but if they are supposed to run on ‘Red’ could other contaminates be exacerbating the situation?

 

Thanks,

Colin

 

Welcome Colin. One of my specialities is oil fired heating both domestic and marine. I would avoid all the marine type heaters completely and fit the smallest modern domestic condensing oil fired boiler. This will be type approved and be as efficient as is possible and will be cheaper to run than any LPG boiler and without the hassle or safety issues. You can save further space by specifing a combination condensing boiler which will also take care of all your hot water demands. You will need to run it on kerosene because of the corrosive effects of gas oil on the secondary heat exchanger but a non condensing high efficiency boiler will run happily on diesel or gas oil with only slightly higher fuel consumption. If you do a bit of googling you will see how efficient they are and all domestic boilers can be checked. This will also be much cheaper than the marine stuff and you can always find someone to fix it quickly.

 

The boiler will be about the size of a domestic undercounter fridge or a boiler house version without the case can be fitted in an engine room etc. Pressure jet burners such as fitted to the domestic boiler are used extensively around the world in many applications and are well proven, gas oil is burned under high pressure through a jet to atomise it very finely for very efficient mixing with air and producing an excellent clean burn, most marine burners cannot do this or maintain a clean burn. You might also like to consider an oil fired pressure jet range cooker such as Stanley or Rayburn and save further space! I could supply you with new or reconditioned.

 

Gas oil by the way does not effect marine heaters with sulphur, it doesn't have enough for that and this was just an assumption by someone, the fuel is the same as before and they have always had problems. The problem is to do with the crude and inefficient way they work which causes heavy carbon deposits which is unburnt fuel, although they will work better on kerosene because it vaporises better. Diesel and kerosene last much, much longer than petrol but diesel can suffer from "the diesel bug", this is usually a result of water, heat and bacteria feeding on the diesel which can block filters.

 

I also suggest you insulate your barge as well as you possibly can to conserve heat and also help keep it cool. Fit modern domestic heating controls to modern standards such as a programmer, room thermostat and thermostatic radiator valves and use a domestic installer preferably OFTEC registered not the boat yard! You are not required to comply with building regulations of course but in the absence anything better for boats these will give you a very high standard of heating and efficiency comparable with living in a similar size house. You will not regret it.

[Colin Smith]

Hi Terry,

 

Thank you for your comments. I've sent you a PM regarding this!

 

Cheers,

Colin

[Paul Sylvan]

Hi TerryL

 

Your post mentions that gas oil does not affect marine heaters with sulphur. Webasto UK in a letter to me recently included sulphur as one of the reasons for heater failures. Indeed, as I’ve mentioned in previous posts, in their written report to me on my Webasto Thermo Top heater they concluded that:

 

‘The most probable cause for the high build up of carbon and reduced burner life is due to an excessive presence of sulphur and/or other unknown properties within the fuel and/or fuel tank, and is not in any way related to a Webasto product or installation’.

 

This report seemed consistent with the yellow/white deposits in the burner tube which I was able to see and which the Webasto engineer informed me at the time were sulphur deposits. The photographs of my burner in the Webasto report also show in detail these yellow/white deposits. I am not qualified to say if the deposits were sulphur or not but presume that Webasto as the product producers are qualified and this being the case I had no reason not to believe what they were telling me.

 

Regards

 

Paul Sylvan

 

 

 

 

 

 

Welcome Colin. One of my specialities is oil fired heating both domestic and marine. I would avoid all the marine type heaters completely and fit the smallest modern domestic condensing oil fired boiler. This will be type approved and be as efficient as is possible and will be cheaper to run than any LPG boiler and without the hassle or safety issues. You can save further space by specifing a combination condensing boiler which will also take care of all your hot water demands. You will need to run it on kerosene because of the corrosive effects of gas oil on the secondary heat exchanger but a non condensing high efficiency boiler will run happily on diesel or gas oil with only slightly higher fuel consumption. If you do a bit of googling you will see how efficient they are and all domestic boilers can be checked. This will also be much cheaper than the marine stuff and you can always find someone to fix it quickly.

 

The boiler will be about the size of a domestic undercounter fridge or a boiler house version without the case can be fitted in an engine room etc. Pressure jet burners such as fitted to the domestic boiler are used extensively around the world in many applications and are well proven, gas oil is burned under high pressure through a jet to atomise it very finely for very efficient mixing with air and producing an excellent clean burn, most marine burners cannot do this or maintain a clean burn. You might also like to consider an oil fired pressure jet range cooker such as Stanley or Rayburn and save further space! I could supply you with new or reconditioned.

 

Gas oil by the way does not effect marine heaters with sulphur, it doesn't have enough for that and this was just an assumption by someone, the fuel is the same as before and they have always had problems. The problem is to do with the crude and inefficient way they work which causes heavy carbon deposits which is unburnt fuel, although they will work better on kerosene because it vaporises better. Diesel and kerosene last much, much longer than petrol but diesel can suffer from "the diesel bug", this is usually a result of water, heat and bacteria feeding on the diesel which can block filters.

 

I also suggest you insulate your barge as well as you possibly can to conserve heat and also help keep it cool. Fit modern domestic heating controls to modern standards such as a programmer, room thermostat and thermostatic radiator valves and use a domestic installer preferably OFTEC registered not the boat yard! You are not required to comply with building regulations of course but in the absence anything better for boats these will give you a very high standard of heating and efficiency comparable with living in a similar size house. You will not regret it.

[Guest TerryL]

Hi TerryL

 

Your post mentions that gas oil does not affect marine heaters with sulphur. Webasto UK in a letter to me recently included sulphur as one of the reasons for heater failures. Indeed, as I’ve mentioned in previous posts, in their written report to me on my Webasto Thermo Top heater they concluded that:

 

‘The most probable cause for the high build up of carbon and reduced burner life is due to an excessive presence of sulphur and/or other unknown properties within the fuel and/or fuel tank, and is not in any way related to a Webasto product or installation’.

 

This report seemed consistent with the yellow/white deposits in the burner tube which I was able to see and which the Webasto engineer informed me at the time were sulphur deposits. The photographs of my burner in the Webasto report also show in detail these yellow/white deposits. I am not qualified to say if the deposits were sulphur or not but presume that Webasto as the product producers are qualified and this being the case I had no reason not to believe what they were telling me.

 

Regards

 

Paul Sylvan

 

I do a fair number of boiler/burner services, a good number are running on gas oil including two of my own. Even if there was a high build up of yellow sulphur deposits which would normally be deposited on the heat exchanger surfaces over a long time and cleaned off on the annual service, this does not explain how it can cause a high build up of carbon that should not appear and does not happen with a pressure jet burner in normal serviced use.

 

This is a totally separate problem due to incomplete combustion. If sulphur is responsible in some way by clogging it up for example then that has always been the case because the fuel is the same as it always was and this problem would be down to the burner design. These problems have been going back decades and it can't be new to them!

 

Obviously a burner needs cleaning and adjusting periodicly but I understand your problem happened fairly quickly so how would it build up that quickly bearing in mind the sulphur mostly leaves via the exhaust? The most I see is a thin coat and usually in the cooler parts of the boiler which might be a clue to your problem. Other deposits (white) are caused by condensation especially if the boiler is run below the dew point of about 50oC. If you think your fuel might be unusual you can always have it analysed! Can I see the burner pictures/report?

Edited August 25, 2008 by TerryL

[robkg]

Well done Paul,

 

As I have a court case pending in a few weeks time for what sounds like very similar problems, your outcome sets a powerful precedent.

 

With respect to my claim, is it acceptable, ethical and legal for me to submit extracts from this thread to the court to provide further supporting material?

 

I can offer further info to this debate. My heater, installed by myself, purchased from a main dealer, has persistantly failed to function correctly from new. My unique(?) situation is that I know exactly what fuel the heater has been running on throughout its life as I obtained it directly from the same major fuel distributor on three seperate occasions. The distributor has provided me with the full specifications of the fuel. Furthermore they have also stated that they have supplied identical fuel to two or more inland marinas.

The fuel (which is sold legally as red diesel) meets or exceeds BS 2869 Classes A2 and D.

 

The heater supplier has persisted in blaming my installation for the heater problems without having seen it. However another authorised supplier of the same units has seen it and has confirmed to me in writing that the installation is satisfactory. (Having done well in the awards at the IWA National can't hurt in confirming my competence to carry out such an installation either.)