What stove is right for me?

[saltysplash]

Gravity fed systems are very efficient and suitable for larger boats. You just need to make sure the system is balanced properly....I think 'Blackrose' has some useful advice on his system for his widebeam

[sociable_hermit]

Gravity is generally pretty reliable too!

[Eddimonton]

Well I just wanted to say that the stove is in and its lovely. I had it fitted in dry for the time being cos making sure I had the right pump and switch (to go from eberspacher to stove) was getting very complicated and very expensive. Whow knows, if I can afford it and I think its necessary I will have it fitted at a lter date.

 

So its in the saloon which is about 18 foot from the stern doors. It is able to create a nice heat down to the bow end and can even heat the two rooms which are essentially closed off!! Its powerful. It makes me want to sleep ALOT.

 

To cope with the curve of the roof I had some local steel fabricators make some wedges to fit under the big chunky collar and so its just a straight pipe straight out of the top and is working great. I also got some superlux for the ceilling too.

 

So I really wanted to say thank you to everyone who has responded to my cries for help with regard to what onearth I should do for the best. With your help and that of a very clever builder I have a secondary heating system which I'm hoping will start paying for itself!

 

Thanks everyone

 

Chloe xx

[Cinimod]

Well done... we had ours fitted a couple of weeks back and so far it is doing OK - have not yet quite worked out how to get it running at best efficiency, or managed to keep it in over night yet, but I guess we will get there.

 

When it is running well, then it heats 4 rads through the boat via a gravity feed and hot water - the weather seems to be getting colder, so really in for testing it now!

[Eddimonton]

Can you say more about the gravity fed aspect of your installation please? I'm interested!

[blackrose]

Can you say more about the gravity fed aspect of your installation please? I'm interested!

 

It's called thermocycling: Convection causes the hot water to rise and once the water has lost its heat it falls under gravity and returns to the backboiler. Unlike a pumped system you have to pay much more attention to the angles of the pipes. Use the widest bore pipe that you can for the main run - ideally the same diameter as the backboiler outlets without any reductions. Most thermocycling systems are installed as part of the heat radiation system so exposed lengths of copper pipe are used and they can be polished up to look quite nice.

 

I think I wrote quite a bit about installing a thermocycling system some time ago so have a look in the archives.

 

Mike

[Cinimod]

Can you say more about the gravity fed aspect of your installation please? I'm interested!

 

You have to get your angles right, and we opted for having ours professionally fitted - cost us an extra £600 - but money well spent!

 

 

So here is a pic of our system... the Morso with back boiler on the left, 4 rads (each one with a valve) and the calorifier on the right hand side...

 

There is a large bore copper pipe along the top of the rad with a rising slope highest at the calorifier - the rise is probably around 4 inches over 50ft,

 

There is an approx 1.5cm pipe dropping from this main pipe into the top right of each rad (through a thermostatic valve) and they feed out from the bottom left corner (i.e. Diagonal) - you do end up with a cooler patch in the bottom right, but it still works well.

 

We chose to include the calorifier in our set up too and essentially it works as an extra rad - transferring the heat from the stove to the hot water... also into the calorifier is a feed from the engine, so the engine heats the water too... this also means we have (by using the pump (BLUE BOX)) a way to move the hot water from the calorifier through the rads to heat the rads, the only issue is that the pump is way too fast at the moment and the water gets pumped too quickly to transfer the heat....

 

The blue line is cold water into the calorifier and red is hot water out...

[MoominPapa]

Its powerful. It makes me want to sleep ALOT.

I may be being a worry-wort, but carbon-monoxide makes people want to sleep a lot too, and a new stove installation might just have a problem which makes it leak CO. You do have an alarm, don't you, so that I can stop worrying?

 

 

MP.

[sociable_hermit]

Hear the man.

[ditchcrawler]

You have to get your angles right, and we opted for having ours professionally fitted - cost us an extra £600 - but money well spent!

 

 

So here is a pic of our system... the Morso with back boiler on the left, 4 rads (each one with a valve) and the calorifier on the right hand side...

I would suggest that there should be at least one rad with no valves to dump heat from the back boiler if necessary, maybe a heated towel rail.

[ditchcrawler]

It could be a bit like putting a saucepan full of water on the hob - only without the water!

If it's a cast iron pan in a cast iron hob I can't see it coming to a lot of harm, if its alloy on flame or you add water when hot, then watch out. Surely it would be the same for a cast iron back boiler, just don't mix hot dray and cold wet. Or have I missed something.

[Scotty]

Is there a header tank smoewhere?

[US Marines]

I may be being a worry-wort, but carbon-monoxide makes people want to sleep a lot too, and a new stove installation might just have a problem which makes it leak CO. You do have an alarm, don't you, so that I can stop worrying?

MP.

 

Just read this thread from the start *cold*

 

The 'sleep A LOT' post jolted me WIDE AWAKE - thinking exactly the same as MP and SH - you are still there aren't you ?

[Mick_B]

With a 4" rise over 50'.... How is this compromised when you dump 200lt's of water into the tank at the pointy end of the boat? Or run low for that matter..

[Cinimod]

I would suggest that there should be at least one rad with no valves to dump heat from the back boiler if necessary, maybe a heated towel rail.

Do you not think that the calorifier will sink enough?

If not then we can leave the last rad (next to the calorifier) fully open... unfortunately the bathroom is on the other side of the boat, so difficult to run the pipes...

 

Thanks

[Eddimonton]

Just read this thread from the start *cold*

 

The 'sleep A LOT' post jolted me WIDE AWAKE - thinking exactly the same as MP and SH - you are still there aren't you ?

 

Hello Everyone

 

Ooooo you are a kind lot aren't you. I did recieve an PM about this - thanks thanks thanks. I will go get a CO detector before I light it again. Its clearly something that I've not thought about and a really serious issue especially as our 3 year old is on board too.

 

I am still here and thank you for bringing it to my attention I will focus my attentions on this cos the sleepiness and headaches are common since its been installed (by a professional).

 

I'll let you know .

 

Thanks

 

Chloe

[bottle]

sleepiness and headaches are common

 

Hi Chloe

 

You are absolutely correct not to use it, the above signs and symptoms are classic for CO poisoning.

 

Not wishing to frighten you but a look at this, may be of some use:

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/carbonmonoxide1.shtml

Edited October 17, 2008 by bottle

[blackrose]

 

So here is a pic of our system... the Morso with back boiler on the left, 4 rads (each one with a valve) and the calorifier on the right hand side...

 

There is a large bore copper pipe along the top of the rad with a rising slope highest at the calorifier - the rise is probably around 4 inches over 50ft,

 

Unless there is an open header tank somewhere in the system then this looks like a pressurised system. Also they've managed to heat your calorifier with this system - did they use a widebore coil in the calorifier for that or is that blue box next to the calorifier a pump - so it's a hybrid system?

 

A lot of installations have a shallow rise extending over the entire length of the top run as in this diagram, but common sense tells me that the water will be cooling as soon as it exits the backboiler so it is better to have a steep rise from the backboiler, perhaps a shallow rise to the first rad (assuming it's fairly close), and then the top run should have a shallow fall all the way to the last rad, continuing to fall on the return run all the way back to the backboiler as shown in the diagram.

 

The difficulty is achieving this fall over the entire length without the retun pipe having to rise again to get back into the backboiler.

Edited October 17, 2008 by blackrose

[Eddimonton]

Hi Chloe

 

You are absolutely correct not to use it, the above signs and symptoms are classic for CO poisoning.

 

Not wishing to frighten you but a look at this, may be of some use:

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/carbonmonoxide1.shtml

 

Excellent site btw and I am concerned because of these symtoms in both my daughter and I over that last week.

[Athy]

It may be that the boat builder did not install sufficient ventilation, especially I suspect low level ventilation. But there is a simple and cheap solution: open a window!

[bottle]

Chloe

 

From the link:

 

Quote:

 

People who suffer mild poisoning invariably make a full recovery. Between ten and 50 per cent of those with severe poisoning may suffer long-term problems.

 

Unquote

 

Now you know a possible cause of your headaches, you can take steps to stop it, perhaps a visit to your GP would help allay your fears.

 

I am not qualified to say whether or not you have had the symptoms because of the stove but is there enough ventilation (air supply) when the stove is alight.

 

From the BSS:

 

Minimum effective area (mm2) = [2200xU]+[650xP]+[440xF]

U = total input rating (kW) for all appliances (including cookers) without flues

P = number of people for which the compartment is designed

F = input rating (kW) for all open or closed flue appliances

 

The input rating for your appliances can normally be found on the

manufacturer’s plate on the appliance and/or in the operating instructions.

The ventilation requirement needs to be split as equally as practicable between:

n high level (ideally cabin roof), and,

n low level.

Low-level venting can be achieved by letting in cold air from vents in

doors and/or bulkheads, or by means of ducting from a higher level.

Careful examination must be made of each ventilator to check for the

presence of anything that would reduce the clear air opening e.g. filter,

insect screen. Such filters or screens must also be in a clean and

serviceable condition as partial or complete blockage of the clear air

openings could make the ventilator totally ineffective and your calculations

inaccurate. Louvered doors are a common form of providing permanent

ventilation and the effective area needs to be carefully measured.

 

The full BSS guide is available here:

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/2nded...alGuide_212.asp

[Cinimod]

Unless there is an open header tank somewhere in the system then this looks like a pressurised system. Also they've managed to heat your calorifier with this system - did they use a widebore coil in the calorifier for that or is that blue box next to the calorifier a pump - so it's a hybrid system?

 

A lot of installations have a shallow rise extending over the entire length of the top run as in this diagram, but common sense tells me that the water will be cooling as soon as it exits the backboiler so it is better to have a steep rise from the backboiler, perhaps a shallow rise to the first rad (assuming it's fairly close), and then the top run should have a shallow fall all the way to the last rad, continuing to fall on the return run all the way back to the backboiler as shown in the diagram.

 

The difficulty is achieving this fall over the entire length without the retun pipe having to rise again to get back into the backboiler.

 

Well spotted - Sorry - forgot the header tank, by the calorifier.

 

The blue box is a pump - the calorifier is one which we had before... the pump is in the calorifier circuit so when it is not on it does not effect the gravity system. Essentially the calorifier is acting like another rad.

 

The issue with having the pipe slope down is the hotter water will want to stay at the boiler end - that is why the pipe slopes UP away from the boiler, so the hot water is ALWAYS trying to rise... it does not matter that the water further from the boiler is cooler, as the water closer to the boiler will always be that little bit warmer so will try to rise up (hope that makes sense) - if you had it falling on the outflow, the warm water would not want to go along there... in fact the greater the rise you can have along the length the better I think... (though I could be wrong)

 

Hope that shed some more light.

[Eddimonton]

Hello

I realised I had a detector in my kitchen all along and I realy feel the problem has been about ventilation. The mushroom vents are open as are the ones in the stern doors I dont know if this is adequate. We used the formula but dont know what that means in term of how much ventilation is required. With the vents all properly opened and the fire on it was very fdifferent fire! It wasn't as smelly or smokey. So my gut instinct is vents. I also went to the doctor so have eased my mind etc

Anyone able to help with how many vents I need - its not a huge problem to install more mushroom vents I dont know about other types of vents tho

Chloe

[sociable_hermit]

Has the CO alarm registered any readings?

 

A good supply of oxygen will help the fire burn, no question, but the stove shouldn't be leaking smoke inside the boat in any case. If it's leaking from around the firedoor or the chimney inside the boat, you need to get the fitter back to sort it out.

 

Building the fire up gradually will also help it smoke less - it's possible to "black out" a fire with too much coal (especially some of the stuff sold for boats) and then it'll just smoke. But again that should be apparent from thick smoke out of the chimney rather than smoke inside the boat!

[bottle]

Hi Chloe

 

Hermit is correct in what he says.

 

On the question of what to do with the answer, ventilation, the figure you get is the amount of free space (minimum effective area) that you need.

 

For example, if the answer says 25mm² then that equates to a hole 5mm by 5mm or a hole 1mm by 25mm.

 

When buying a vent cover it should inform you of the free airflow that it will allow.

 

Have a look at this site for example. http://www.penrynplastics.co.uk/page/ventilation (This is only a site I found via google, usual get out )

 

The first vent listed is 241mm by 89mm which is equal to 21,449 mm² but it only give a free flow (minimum effective area) of 8,800 mm²

 

 

^{Edit: Of course the hole has to be as large as possible behind the vent cover}

Edited October 22, 2008 by bottle