Am I daft to want this boat?

[stort_mark]

Do you know how hard it is to get Formica these days? We did find some in the end though, for our 1970 Callumcraft's new (teak-edged) table. It still has its original upholstery in blue vinyl with white piping...

There's a lot of 1970s stuff that was in every car-boot sale in the country for more tan a decade until suddenly it started to become fashionable again. Then it all disappeared, cost a fortune and was sold from shops on the Kings Road.

[moggyjo]

Alan in the corner above the clock there is a zoom application normal is !00%, if you click on the side slide next to the 100% you can expand up to 400%.

 

I have epanded the pic by 400% and can see evidence of overplatting.

 

Dave

I can't find this zoom feature you are on about, on my laptop?

[Mayflower]

I can't find this zoom feature you are on about, on my laptop?

 

It's browser dependent. IE probably has it. Camino certainly doesn't. What browser are you using?

[Mayflower]

ooh er....

 

Just found this website of boat listings and the almost 60 ft of narrowboat that I'm interested in is listed there with the correct year of manufacture (1972) but all the rest of the info is all to pot (unless someone extruded it later by putting it through a 7ft lock!)

 

Built by Ocean 30 in 1972 - Length: 29 feet 9 inches (9.07 metres) Beam: 10 feet 2 inches (3.10 metres).WHITE hull WHIBLU superstructure 2 Diesel Inboard engines with a total power of 42HP. Registered with EA Anglian Region number G4440 as a Motor boat.

[Chris J W]

ooh er....

 

Just found this website of boat listings and the almost 60 ft of narrowboat that I'm interested in is listed there with the correct year of manufacture (1972) but all the rest of the info is all to pot (unless someone extruded it later by putting it through a 7ft lock!)

 

Built by Ocean 30 in 1972 - Length: 29 feet 9 inches (9.07 metres) Beam: 10 feet 2 inches (3.10 metres).WHITE hull WHIBLU superstructure 2 Diesel Inboard engines with a total power of 42HP. Registered with EA Anglian Region number G4440 as a Motor boat.

 

Hmm - could be a boat with the same name, me thinks! Have you counted the engines in yours?

 

So are you planning on starting on the Lancaster Canal or the Leeds and Liverpool?

[alan_fincher]

I've seen a very small one (Lynton at the Used Boat Comapny at Hanbury Wharf [url="http://www.theusedboat.co.uk/"[/url] (I can't add the precise link cois it's a dynamic link)) for the same sort of price. Most of the 40-50 ft ones I've seen (on the web) are all mid-twenties or more.

 

'Lynton' looks more 'sensible' as a weekend boat - though I can see domestic friction resulting from one pullout bed on any occasion when one of us wants to be up when the other one want to be sleeping! And there's no room for friends.

Hi Lisa,

 

Out of interest had a look at the online details for "Lynton"

 

Brokerages are often crap at the amount of info supplied about a secondhand boat, but it looks like the "Used Boat Company", have excelled themselves by being a lot crapper than many.

 

Nothing about plating specification, very little about equipment. Cooker, yes, but oven ? I don't think so. What type of toilet ? It doesn't say. Shower - probably not ?

 

At £15K for a boat of only 30 feet and 27 years old, I don't think it's a good deal.

 

I'd suggest it has been on the market a while, as it says the Boat Safety Certificate is until 04/08 - i.e. it has expired. (In that kind of case, I'd insist the seller paid for a new one...)

 

Alan

[Mayflower]

Out of interest had a look at the online details for "Lynton"

Brokerages are often crap at the amount of info supplied about a secondhand boat, but it looks like the "Used Boat Company", have excelled themselves by being a lot crapper than many.

Yes aren't they? They were my first online browsing (because I walk along that pound every month or so and had seen the boats fro sale) and I was amazed when I found other brokerages that listed useful thungs like the plating and engine specs!

At £15K for a boat of only 30 feet and 27 years old, I don't think it's a good deal.

Hence my greater interest in the 59.something ft Harborough which is only 20 minutes away from where I live so I can go and look at it and negotiate direct with the current owner. The reason for survey but no haggling is that the current owner is a friend of a friend. We want to make a clear Y/N decision before the boat goes on the open market.

 

Lisa

[charles123]

Finding the right boat at the right price is very much a matter of timing, you have to spend a lot of time reserching the web sites and allow 3 months, but they are there. I have been looking at boats in this price range for a while to check the market from the perspective of buying one, doing it up and making a profit. I would say I have seen better but worse also. My opinion is that 2 things put me off on this one, the possible poor state of the hull and the fact its got a GRP top

 

Charles

[carlt]

Finding the right boat at the right price is very much a matter of timing, you have to spend a lot of time reserching the web sites and allow 3 months, but they are there. I have been looking at boats in this price range for a while to check the market from the perspective of buying one, doing it up and making a profit. I would say I have seen better but worse also. My opinion is that 2 things put me off on this one, the possible poor state of the hull and the fact its got a GRP top

 

Charles

Yes Harboros (and springers, for that matter) aren't really a good boat to make money on, because the difference between the price of a "doer-upper" and one done up, is smaller.

 

If you're looking to make a fast buck then you're better off spending a bit more on a scruffy clonecraft and refitting/prettying it.

 

If you're after a good boat, for a good price and you're not scared of GRP then you can't get much better, than a harboro. They're also at the bottom of the depreciation curve, too, so, though you won't get rich quick, you're unlikely to lose on it, either.

 

(subject to a satisfactory hull survey, of course)

Edited May 11, 2008 by carlt

[Mayflower]

Hmm - could be a boat with the same name, me thinks! Have you counted the engines in yours?

Ah, ruined my mental image of 29ftx12 going into a lock and 59ftx6 comming out the other side. You are such a spoilsport.

So are you planning on starting on the Lancaster Canal or the Leeds and Liverpool?

Depends where bought boat is, at least in the immediate term. If we buy one on the Lancaster-Kendal, we'll leave it there until next next summer or until it's fettled, whichever is the later, which could be the latter, given the speed we fettle things! Preston staircase an' all that = lots of hassle to move it somewhere else that's also further away = no sense. It it were to be on the main system, we'd probably move it to the Leeds-Liverpool (unless it was in the west midlands in which case maybe leave it there).

[Chris Pink]

I couldn't see anyone had posted this potentially useful bit of information;

 

Harborough Marine GRP topsides always leak. It is possible to stop this with yearly patching but they will develop more leaks.

 

To see how much attention has recently been paid to this, visit in the rain, look at gunwhales, around windows. A particularly common leak on these is the handrail screws, water can come out of the roof lining somewhere else than the leak.

 

£16 possibly because it's 60', but i would though £13 for age and potential spending. I see them around for this kind of price with SR2/3s, the SR2 will be fine for canals, not so suitable for river work.

[RichardH]

I couldn't see anyone had posted this potentially useful bit of information;

 

Harborough Marine GRP topsides always leak. It is possible to stop this with yearly patching but they will develop more leaks.

 

To see how much attention has recently been paid to this, visit in the rain, look at gunwhales, around windows. A particularly common leak on these is the handrail screws, water can come out of the roof lining somewhere else than the leak.

 

£16 possibly because it's 60', but i would though £13 for age and potential spending. I see them around for this kind of price with SR2/3s, the SR2 will be fine for canals, not so suitable for river work.

 

Good point from Chris - if you want to bring it across the Ribble then I wouldn't do it with an SR2 (I didn't have the confidence to do it with an SR3 in a 42footer although she was fine on the Trent in Winter)

 

Have you sorted a mooring out ?

[Mayflower]

Good point from Chris - if you want to bring it across the Ribble then I wouldn't do it with an SR2 (I didn't have the confidence to do it with an SR3 in a 42footer although she was fine on the Trent in Winter)

 

Have you sorted a mooring out ?

Thanks for that - yes someday we'd need to cross the Ribble - but not for a while. Not even looked at moorings - it's on hard standing till end of June (renewable) while external hull work is being done it will stay there. And yes, I realise this means we can't actually see if it even floats - let alone how the engine/boat relationship works

 

We're off to see it for real this evening - expect more news from me tomorrow, maybe! Or the end of this thread if we find the reality too frightening.

 

Lisa

[Mayflower]

Been and seen it. Hull solid - no overplating - base was red-oxided at manufacture and seems sound. Needs a lot of TLC, though, pressure wash and rub-down and blacking below - real deep rubdown and rust removal and repaint topsides. External woodwork needs repair. Inside's a bit odd - I'd want to refit most of it, I think. But remarkably dry - no mould or mustyness. GRP top has had all its external scews etc masticed regularly by the looks. Engine not run for a while - looks like it needs a similar amount of spit and polish. Decision time. Not sure what to do - looks like it needs a year of evenings spending on it - poss out of the water as that would be no more expensive than moorings. Job too big for me to do - but can one get tradespeople to that sort of thing?

Edited May 12, 2008 by Mayflower

[saltysplash]

Been and seen it. Hull solid - no overplating - base was red-oxided at manufacture and seems sound. Needs a lot of TLC, though, pressure wash and rub-down and blacking below - real deep rubdown and rust removal and repaint topsides. External woodwork needs repair. Inside's a bit odd - I'd want to refit most of it, I think. But remarkably dry - no mould or mustyness. GRP top has had all its external scews etc masticed regularly by the looks. Engine not run for a while - looks like it needs a similar amount of spit and polish. Decision time. Not sure what to do - looks like it needs a year of evenings spending on it - poss out of the water as that would be no more expensive than moorings. Job too big for me to do - but can one get tradespeople to that sort of thing?

 

The hull is sound so it appears a good boat. A boat is only worth what someone will pay for it.

 

My first NB was a 1973 50' harbourgh boat still in its anglo welsh fit out with a Lister SR3. Cracking little engine and we loved the boat.

 

Yep, the cabin roof was flexable but our main drips came from the windows which we eventually removed and reseated and cured the problem.

 

 

No boat is perfect and all, even new seem to require attention. Its all part of boating an i still love the shape of a Harbourgh Hull

[alan_fincher]

I think that a 1972 Harborough Marine boat that has had no overplating done, and genuinely doesn't need any would be a relatively unusual beast.

 

I suppose that it could have been scrupulously looked after for 36 years, but it would be unusual, and as the rest of it doesn't sound to be immaculate, you have to be suspicious about the hull.

 

Do you know if it has a "wet bilge" ? That is rainwater getting in at front can flow through under the floors, to be pumped out at the back. Some even had their showers draining into the bilge.

 

If it is wet bilge, then the baseplate can be being attacked from both sides.

 

I have a gut feel that a full hull survey, with ultrasonic measurement of thicknesses at a number of points might yield some nasty surprises.

 

If you do get to overplating, it's an expensive business.

 

There is a boat less than half this age being overplated on the slip at out marina, (sides only, baseplate OK). I'd say it was about 50 foot. Out of curiosity I asked the engineer how much. £4K to £5K, depending on exactly what's found, he said. That gives a rough idea, I think.

 

Sorry to be a bit of a dampener, but I'm not sure this one feels right.....

 

Alan

[Liam]

Even if the hull appears to be sound, it was built in 1972 and has had no over plating. I would definitely get a hull survey before going any further.

 

Saying that though, a friend of mine has a 48ft Harborough which also has had no over plating and when he recently had a survey, it stated that although it was built in 6mm steel, it was still on average around 5.5mm thick with the thinnest point being 5mm. It does need extra "shoes" welding around along the middle but this is a relatively small job and is to be done next time the boat is out for blacking.

 

Even though the Lister SR2 is pretty much indestructible I'd be keen to get this going. You'll probably find that with topped up batteries it wouldn't take much to start.

Edited May 12, 2008 by Liam

[saltysplash]

I think that a 1972 Harborough Marine boat that has had no overplating done, and genuinely doesn't need any would be a relatively unusual beast.

 

I suppose that it could have been scrupulously looked after for 36 years, but it would be unusual, and as the rest of it doesn't sound to be immaculate, you have to be suspicious about the hull.

 

Do you know if it has a "wet bilge" ? That is rainwater getting in at front can flow through under the floors, to be pumped out at the back. Some even had their showers draining into the bilge.

 

If it is wet bilge, then the baseplate can be being attacked from both sides.

 

I have a gut feel that a full hull survey, with ultrasonic measurement of thicknesses at a number of points might yield some nasty surprises.

 

If you do get to overplating, it's an expensive business.

 

There is a boat less than half this age being overplated on the slip at out marina, (sides only, baseplate OK). I'd say it was about 50 foot. Out of curiosity I asked the engineer how much. £4K to £5K, depending on exactly what's found, he said. That gives a rough idea, I think.

 

Sorry to be a bit of a dampener, but I'm not sure this one feels right.....

 

Alan

 

It will defo have a wet bilge

 

and yes, Hull thinkness survey is a must

[Mayflower]

It will defo have a wet bilge

 

and yes, Hull thinkness survey is a must

 

It has got a wet bilge - the hole in the bathroom floor allows easy viewing of the water in it! :-)

 

If I want to go further, booking a full survey will be my next act. Tonight's question is whether I want to do that.

 

Anyone got any thoughts on how much I'd have to do myself to get it done properly - and how much I can get done by paying someone? My experience of builders and houses is that I'll never let one across the threshold again. Is it as bad as that with people who 'do' boats?

 

I'm 5 foot 1.5 inches, with a full time job - the boat is 20 mins drive away. If I were to start to do the outside myself in evenings it'd be like the Forth Road bridge - the back would need doing again before I got to the front!

[Liam]

You yourself can only decide what you can and cannot do. After the boat has had a survey you will get a better understanding of where you stand with it. You get cowboys in all trades, not just those which work on houses but as long as you go with recommendations on here or with local boaters in your area you generally can't go wrong.

 

If you get the survey done and it shows that either replating or re-bottoming is necessary you can either walk away and save yourself thousands or use this as a lever to get some money knocked off if possible. If you do go for the survey make sure it's an independent surveyor. If you tell us what area the boat is currently for sale in I'm sure somebody will able to give you a few phone numbers.

[alan_fincher]

If I want to go further, booking a full survey will be my next act.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am trying to help, (honest! ).

 

How much experience do you have at looking at a fairly elderly narrowboat, and assessing condition ?

 

The reason I ask is that a full survey is going to set you back a lot of money. I don't know current rates, but it could be as much as £500, (although I'm assuming you start with the advantage that it's already out of the water ?).

 

Do you know anybody who "knows boats" ? It's possible that someone with a bit more experience than you may have is going to have a better idea as to whether the boat is worth splashing out for a survey.

 

Obviously nobody can tell plate thicknesses just by looking at it, but someone may be able to look at general levels of pitting, rusting, etc, to help you decde whether to spend money finding out.

 

Liam is quite right - you can get boats of this age in excellent condition. Equally though, much newer boats can be little more than scrap.

 

Oh, and if it has a Lister SR2, you don't necessarily even need a good battery to see if it will run. If the manual starting handle is there, you can hand crank them, and they'll start.

 

Having posted in another thread that I don't understand the need for very big engines, I must admit with this one I err the other way. A Lister SR2 will do the business, on canals at least. But with a boat over 60 feet, I think it's a bit marginal - an SR3 would have been rather better. in my view. (Make sure it is an SR2 - people have been sold boats stating it's an SR series engine, but ended up with the much older SL engines - these are very much less powerful, and spares I believe, can be an issue).

 

Alan

[Mayflower]

I'm not offendable!

 

I'm a newbie - I said that at the outset. Experience - zilch. It's why I joined the forum and posted - and I'm very happy so many people are chipping in with advice.

 

I have no way of knowing if the bottom's been replated. I think I'd be able to tell if the sides had been patched - I can't weld myself but I've seen a lot of good and bad welding - but I may easily be wrong - especialy if the bitumen is capable of covering well-ground (grinded?) seams.

 

It didn't *look* pitted - not compared with the one next to it! To be honest I'm more worried about the amount of work that I can see than about what more there is that I can't!

 

The seller had inteded to run the engine for us - she'd forgotten to recharge the powerpack battery - I'm sure I can see/hear the engine if I go back tomorrow.

 

I can do mains and 12V wiring, and plumbing (we put in our domestic central heating ourselves from scratch albeit nearly 20 years ago!) but the hull is way out of my experience.

 

Thanks for all the comments. The boat's in north Lancs - north of Preston, south of Kendal. I'm in Lancaster.

 

Lisa

Edited May 12, 2008 by Mayflower

[alan_fincher]

Lisa,

 

It would be unusual if the bottom had been replated, with nothing required to the hull sides.

 

Sides rust faster, particularly near the waterline, as more oxygen is available there. It's generally reckoned that bottoms rust more slowly - one reason used to justify the fact they are seldom blacked.

 

Generally a side overplate would not be the whole side - just to somewhere up above waterline. There is an overplated Harborough boat moored bang next to us, and the overplating is extremely obvious. The sides are about 6mm wider up to about 3" above waterline, at which point you get a "ledge" where the new metal is welded to the original hull.

 

Even with a lot of blacking on, the "step" in the side would be fairly obvious, even to an untrained eye.

 

It genuinely sounds like your specimen only has it's original plate, (or at least some of it!).

 

It's good that you are comparing pitting to other boats. You are thinking very constructively, even if you say you are a novice.

 

It does sound like it might be worth a survey, but if you can find anybody with a bit more experience than you have, they might stop you gambling maybe £500 to get a professional's opinion.

 

I didn't mean to come across as pessimistically as I did earlier. In the early 1970s Harborough boats were reckoned just about top of the tree for quality, and many of the better hire fleets never used anythimg else. They were certainly rated when new, and having hired a couple back then I know they handle a treat. It's just that an awful lot can happen in 36 yeras, unfortunately.

 

(The boat I owned in the 1970s was reputedly an 1898 build, so old doesn't have to be bad )

 

A.

[Chris Pink]

I'm not offendable!

 

I'm a newbie - I said that at the outset. Experience - zilch. It's why I joined the forum and posted - and I'm very happy so many people are chipping in with advice.

 

I have no way of knowing if the bottom's been replated. I think I'd be able to tell if the sides had been patched - I can't weld myself but I've seen a lot of good and bad welding - but I may easily be wrong - especialy if the bitumen is capable of covering well-ground (grinded?) seams.

 

It didn't *look* pitted - not compared with the one next to it! To be honest I'm more worried about the amount of work that I can see than about what more there is that I can't!

 

Don't be put off!

 

These boats are excellent for a first boat, I know loads of people who have started with Market Harborough boats. Very very solid boats, I would be surprise if the hull wasn't sound - obviously get it checked. But there is an expectation these days that 30 years is old for a boat, but if you stop and think about the materials for a moment - 1/4" or more of steel, it's a fairly substantial beast.

 

And Listers are virtually indestructible if kept with oil in them. The SR2 is very easy to maintain, I cleaned one that had sunk, started first time.

 

The main problem will be the systems, charging and water. Expect to have to spend a bit on money here.

[alan_fincher]

but if you stop and think about the materials for a moment - 1/4" or more of steel, it's a fairly substantial beast.

On the other hand, a boat less than half this age was being overplated at our marina yesterday.

 

The engineer reckons he has recently done patching on a four year old boat, which I find staggering. He blamed the fact that a certain well known volume builder puts very little blacking on when first built, and the owner had not had it out to reblack since.

 

So yes, a thity-something year old boat can be sound, or a 4 year old one can be in a state.

 

I'd still argue that most Harborough boats of the age being discussed here do have some overplating. I'd say one with none is comparitively rare, (in my experience, at least).

 

Alan