Petter AVA

[bag 'o' bones]

Years ago I worked on an old dumper truck that had a Petter AVA1 fitted. Petter also built the AVA2 accoridng to the re-build manual. Sported Bryce Berger injection if I remember right.

 

Just wondering if anyone knows of one fitted to a narrow boat as from what I can remember they sounded quite good with the classic dunk dunk dunk sound that some folk rave on about.

 

BB

[Proper Job]

Years ago I worked on an old dumper truck that had a Petter AVA1 fitted. Petter also built the AVA2 accoridng to the re-build manual. Sported Bryce Berger injection if I remember right.

 

Just wondering if anyone knows of one fitted to a narrow boat as from what I can remember they sounded quite good with the classic dunk dunk dunk sound that some folk rave on about.

 

BB

The AVA 2 (13hp @ 2000 rpm) is found in some NB's, but being air cooled is often a bit noisy. More popular is the PH2 16hp @ 2000 rpm) and being water cooled it was a bit quiter. It to is often found in commercial plant, but was supplied direct from the factory in marine form.

 

I have done many happy miles with a PH2 'dunk, dunk, dunking'!

[blackrose]

I used to have an old air cooled Petter on a previous narrowboat. I think it was only about 8hp but I can't remember the model. Anyway it was a bloody useless lump, it made a nice noise but it would regularly overheat after about half an hour and only just push the boat in any kind of headwind.

[SteveE]

Years ago I worked on an old dumper truck that had a Petter AVA1 fitted. Petter also built the AVA2 accoridng to the re-build manual. Sported Bryce Berger injection if I remember right.

 

Just wondering if anyone knows of one fitted to a narrow boat as from what I can remember they sounded quite good with the classic dunk dunk dunk sound that some folk rave on about.

 

BB

 

Presumably the AVA1 is single cylinder and might well only produce about 8hp - bit small for anything over 35ft. Our is a PD2, air cooled, ex working boat Albion, and it has got us nicely in a 50ft boat from Slough to Macclesfield without a hiccup. Used 2 pints of oil though!

SteveE

[alan_fincher]

This may be of interest, as it lists many of the Petter variants....

 

http://realdiesels.co.uk/petterdata.html

 

As a lover of the 2 cylinder engine sound I always fancied a boat with the PH2 or PH2W engine.

 

I'm sure it's sacrilege to the Russell Newbery or National types, but I always thought the PD2 one of the best sounding narrowboat engines ever. (Anyone remember Union Canal Carriers "Birmingham" that seemed to have been deliberately set up for maximum noise!).

 

Sadly they don't appear to have been that durable or reliable, and surprisingly few seem to still be in boats. Nice to hear of another one in use - that must be a 50 footer with a lot of pulling power!

 

Alan

[tony collins]

I'm sure it's sacrilege to the Russell Newbery or National types, but I always thought the PD2 one of the best sounding narrowboat engines ever. (Anyone remember Union Canal Carriers "Birmingham" that seemed to have been deliberately set up for maximum noise!).

 

Sadly they don't appear to have been that durable or reliable, and surprisingly few seem to still be in boats. Nice to hear of another one in use - that must be a 50 footer with a lot of pulling power!

 

Alan

 

There is tiny tug in Braunston Marina with (I think) a PD2 fitted. the whole length of the boat is no more than about 20' the engine is in it's own engine room and there is a boatman's cabin fitted. the freeboard is so little that she cannot be moored to the normal staging as the gunwales keep going underneath. Here is a photo I took of her a few years ago when she was "pressing on" . "Hebe" is certainly worth a look if you are passing that way. She is normally moored somewhere near the marina shop.

 

Tony

 

Edited to say that at that time she had a push frame attached to the bow, but it has since been removed.

Edited May 4, 2008 by tony collins

[Timleech]

I'm sure it's sacrilege to the Russell Newbery or National types, but I always thought the PD2 one of the best sounding narrowboat engines ever. (Anyone remember Union Canal Carriers "Birmingham" that seemed to have been deliberately set up for maximum noise!).

 

Sadly they don't appear to have been that durable or reliable, and surprisingly few seem to still be in boats. Nice to hear of another one in use - that must be a 50 footer with a lot of pulling power!

 

Alan

 

I do remember during my brief stint hotel boating, on several occasions meeting the UCC boats of a Friday evening as they headed back to Braunston and we were headed for Buckby, passing them in the tunnel was quite an experience for my passengers

 

The PD2 has a reputation for breaking crankshafts, but those which have survived will be over 50 years old so that's not too bad really. There have been a few National crankshafts broken in the past, too.

 

Tim

[Chris Pink]

The PD2 has a reputation for breaking crankshafts, but those which have survived will be over 50 years old so that's not too bad really. There have been a few National crankshafts broken in the past, too.

 

I've just been reading that the PD2, which was BW's engine of choice in the '50s (possibly one very good reason to avoid them) had crankshaft problems because they were designed as stationary engines and couldn't cope with the thrust from the propellor.

[Timleech]

I've just been reading that the PD2, which was BW's engine of choice in the '50s (possibly one very good reason to avoid them) had crankshaft problems because they were designed as stationary engines and couldn't cope with the thrust from the propellor.

 

That sounds like nonsense to me. The propellor thrust isn't transmitted to the engine, it's taken by the thrust bearing in the (reduction) gearbox. A much more credible theory is that they don't cope well with stress on the crankcase, such as would occur if bolted down to uneven engine beds without proper care.

 

BW probably chose them simply because they were one of the first air-cooled diesels of about the right size, and in fact with the right gearbox (with 3-wheel reduction) could be more or less dropped straight in as a replacement for the ageing Nationals, using the same propellor. They (BW) went for the Armstrong Siddeley in the North-West.

 

Tim

[SteveE]

This may be of interest, as it lists many of the Petter variants....

 

http://realdiesels.co.uk/petterdata.html

 

As a lover of the 2 cylinder engine sound I always fancied a boat with the PH2 or PH2W engine.

 

I'm sure it's sacrilege to the Russell Newbery or National types, but I always thought the PD2 one of the best sounding narrowboat engines ever. (Anyone remember Union Canal Carriers "Birmingham" that seemed to have been deliberately set up for maximum noise!).

 

Sadly they don't appear to have been that durable or reliable, and surprisingly few seem to still be in boats. Nice to hear of another one in use - that must be a 50 footer with a lot of pulling power!

 

Alan

 

Interesting link, Alan, thanks. Was the PD2M the marine version of the PD2, with the weight difference of 300lbs be the marinising equipment?

 

We treat our PD2 fairly gently in view of it's age but the boat will certainly move if its skirts are temporarily hoisted!

SteveE

[alan_fincher]

Interesting link, Alan, thanks. Was the PD2M the marine version of the PD2, with the weight difference of 300lbs be the marinising equipment?

 

We treat our PD2 fairly gently in view of it's age but the boat will certainly move if its skirts are temporarily hoisted!

SteveE

I dont't know how a PD2 and PD2M differ - I've always just heard them called PD2s.

 

Your possible explanation sounds sensible.

 

If I ever hear from my long lost brother, I'll quiz him on the topic, and on his experinces of having one in a working boat.

 

I know whilst it was on loan to someone else if suffered fairly major failure, but I don't know details. I seem to remember his explanation was that the design was prone to oil pipes breaking, leading to catastrophic lack of lubrication. I don't know if that makes any sense, and whether there are vital oil pipes that can fail. Whatever it was, I'm sure he said it was a known weakness that many PD2s had died with.

 

As I said, in my view one of the best sounding 2 cylinder engines of the lot.

 

Alan

[BEngo]

I dont't know how a PD2 and PD2M differ - I've always just heard them called PD2s.

 

Your possible explanation sounds sensible.

 

If I ever hear from my long lost brother, I'll quiz him on the topic, and on his experinces of having one in a working boat.

 

I know whilst it was on loan to someone else if suffered fairly major failure, but I don't know details. I seem to remember his explanation was that the design was prone to oil pipes breaking, leading to catastrophic lack of lubrication. I don't know if that makes any sense, and whether there are vital oil pipes that can fail. Whatever it was, I'm sure he said it was a known weakness that many PD2s had died with.

 

As I said, in my view one of the best sounding 2 cylinder engines of the lot.

 

Alan

 

The PD2M was the 'marine' version. I reassembled one once and apart from the gear box I don't remember any major differences.

 

I know the PD was also available as a V8, with two fans, two air cowls etc. which would have made for a pretty impressive tug engine and quite compact. I think they might have been fitted to a big RAF hydraulic rig. Does anyone know for sure what the RAF used them for?- I have the AP manual in the loft.

 

Were there 3 or 4 cylinder versions?

 

regards

 

N

[Timleech]

Were there 3 or 4 cylinder versions?

 

regards

 

N

 

Indeed there were, I have a PD4 and I know someone with a PD3.

I have an idea there was also a V6.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

Indeed there were, I have a PD4 and I know someone with a PD3.

I have an idea there was also a V6.

 

Tim

Indeed!

 

The link I provided shows PD2, PD3, PD4, PDV6 and even PDV8.

 

I'd have thought once you got much beyond PD3 it wouldn't really be worked hard enough in canal use.

 

A PD2 didn't have too much trouble with a fully loaded pair, after all.

 

Alan

[Petter Doug]

Years ago I worked on an old dumper truck that had a Petter AVA1 fitted. Petter also built the AVA2 accoridng to the re-build manual. Sported Bryce Berger injection if I remember right.

 

Just wondering if anyone knows of one fitted to a narrow boat as from what I can remember they sounded quite good with the classic dunk dunk dunk sound that some folk rave on about.

 

BB

 

Hello!

 

My first post on this forum!

 

I'm a Petter 'fan' and noticed this post on Petters, so I thought I'd put some pictures up of my Petter engine.

 

My engine is a 40 year old PH2 WRMR. It isn't in a canal boat though, it is in a sea-going boat, a 32ft wooden sloop (same age, original engine to the boat). Well, to be precise, it is out of the boat at the moment, having undergone a complete 'nut and bolt' rebuild. I tracked down the correct paint code for the engine, so it is now wearing its original shade of paint.

I go to collect the engine tomorrow from the chap who rebuilt it.

 

I have known the engine from new, as my parents had the boat built. The boat has not been in the family for all of its 40 years, but I bought it back into the family 9 years ago.

 

Anyway, enjoy the pics.....

 

 

 

 

Doug

[alan_fincher]

Really looks the part, Doug.

 

I always fancied one of these as a narrowboat engine, in the days back before everybody assumed you couldn't get by with 30 or 40 horsepower minimum.

 

Great sounding engines, from what I recall.

 

Are parts easy to obtian, or does anything now start tto pose a problem ?

 

Alan

[Petter Doug]

Really looks the part, Doug.

 

I always fancied one of these as a narrowboat engine, in the days back before everybody assumed you couldn't get by with 30 or 40 horsepower minimum.

 

Great sounding engines, from what I recall.

 

Are parts easy to obtian, or does anything now start tto pose a problem ?

 

Alan

 

Hi Alan.

 

Yes, I think they are lovely sounding engines.

As a little boy, when my parents originally owned the boat, I used to love watching the flywheel turning, and seeing the engine being started/stopped.

 

Parts on the whole are not too difficult to obtain for this model of Petter. I've built up a few contacts now.

They couldn't find the same pistons (the old ones were corroded due to sea-water getting into the cylinders), so a re-bore was done in order to accommodate the different sized new ones.

I have a complete spare unit and gearbox, incase I do have problems with parts. So far I've only needed to rob the water inlet manifold off it, as the original one was damaged by grit-blasting, though I will still keep the old one, as I guess I could still get it repaired if the need arose.

 

Click the link below and you will get some Petter 'music'!

There are three video clips of my engine running. You should find the other two clips quite easily. I took the clips two or three years ago, when the engine was painted in blue Hammerite.

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9tDRw9Iejok

 

Doug

[Derek R.]

Interesting link, Alan, thanks. Was the PD2M the marine version of the PD2, with the weight difference of 300lbs be the marinising equipment?

 

We treat our PD2 fairly gently in view of it's age but the boat will certainly move if its skirts are temporarily hoisted!

SteveE

 

I would suggest the 'marinised equipment' is flywheel weight.

 

In 1987 I bought a PD2M that had allegedly been fitted in a ships lifeboat and had few running hours. This we fitted into Yarmouth to replace a BMC London Taxi engine (which is still doing sterling service in Kalamaki), the Braithwaite boat with an 18' swim (re-built second time round in '86) would go well. But it spat oil all over the roof from the exhaust, and taking the heads and barrels off found stuck rings, so endorsing a long layover or little use. After that, it stonked us all over the system and with a straight through pipe made some lovely noise. Going through tunnels was particularly entertaining, as the beats used to create an almost syncopated rhythm at a certain throttle setting as sound ricocheted of the walls. It took us through the Midlands to Burscough, over the Pennines, from Keadby to Lincoln, through Nottingham, the Soar and back on the Southern GU. A year later another trip to Chester and back. It never missed a beat, and started first time every time.

 

Most of the oil feed pipes are external to the block - along with an oil cooler behind the fan in an attempt to use the cooled oil as an aid to the cooling air. Any crack in a pipe, or leak in the cooler will reduce pressure to critical and seizures will occur. One good reason for a roof mounted gauge. One of their biggest pains is all that cowling. Any serious maintenance will require a lot of patience as half a day can be spent getting tinware off and turning air blue.

 

I had heard that BW took advantage of a surplus order from some Ministry of PD2M's destined for Landing craft which were never built, and so began replacing RN's and the like. They got the nick name 'Chip-Fryers' for their curved air ducting. Some boatmen detested them for the noise - the injector pump drive has a flexible (in theory) drive whose plates can chatter quite loudly - and there was a rumour of crankshaft breakages, though I never did meet anyone who could determine why that was. Then again, we met a few ex-boatmen who said they were good engines, and liked them. One mechanically adept fellow put forth a theory that they broke on start up, but no evidence.

 

With no more room under Yarmouth's counter for anything bigger than 24" diameter, and with 3:1 reduction at the box, we swung a 24" x 27" equipoise blade, and wound up she would shift! On the Trent 40hp four-pot Bolinder 1053's couldn't catch us!

 

Here we are on the New Junction, pushing on.

 

 

 

After we sold her in '92, the new owner had her little more than six months, when we heard through the grapevine the crank had broke!

 

 

 

And now we have Three! Fitted to Tycho in '58 by BW at Saltley. Just like the twin, there's no way you'd start it on the handle, but decompress, hit the button, drop the lever and she'll fire straight up on all cylinders - direct injection. Had a Gardiner 6LW that did that - six months idle, hit the button and running - sweet.

 

 

Must get a vid with sound on a start up.

 

The major problem with big diesels on the cut is getting them work to do. Glazed bores will be a result of pottering around at little more than tickover, they need to work.

This ones a lot quieter than the twin, but mainly because that silencer has been de-baffled, and with glass fibre as an absorption material, is straight through - purrs more than barks.

 

 

One problem - I've no oil pump for changing oil. Any ideas as to where one would best be fitted? Or - with the partial vacuum created in the crankcase by the drilling from the inlet manifold to combat oil leaks (negative pressure being the idea), might such a drain pump counter the negative pressure. A ball valve in the bottom should stop that though. Just looking for ideas.

[carlt]

More popular is the PH2 16hp @ 2000 rpm) and being water cooled it was a bit quiter. It to is often found in commercial plant, but was supplied direct from the factory in marine form.

 

I have done many happy miles with a PH2 'dunk, dunk, dunking'!

My PH2 certainly wasn't constrained by water cooling, when I had one in my motorised butty, Taplow.

 

Nor is my PH1 stationary lump.

 

Aircooled PH's (or any lump, for that matter) sound better, have less to go wrong, aren't losing loads of power pumping all that water round and keep the engine room warmer.

 

That said the AVA is a bit buzzy for a narrowboat. I know someone who had one in his 45' wooden boat but it was horrid so he soon swapped it for an SR2, though I think it's got a PH2 (air-cooled) in, now (how's that for full circle?).

[Steve King]

A little anecdote to add to the discussion about the Petter PD2.

 

The story goes that boats fitted with the PD2 never picked up rubbish on the propeller. The reason? The PD2, unlike all the other marine engines around at that time had a 2:1 reduction gearbox instead of the more common 3:1. When the prop is fouled, the boatman engages reverse gear to throw the rubbish off, but because of the reduction ratio the Petter's propeller was <always> turning that way, so it never picked up rubbish

 

I think I may have read this in a book on canals many years ago but I really have no idea now where it came from. And the gear ratios may be wrong too, so the whole story is open to correction, but it's a nice little bit of canal lore anyway.

 

 

Steve

[Derek R.]

A little anecdote to add to the discussion about the Petter PD2.

 

The story goes that boats fitted with the PD2 never picked up rubbish on the propeller. The reason? The PD2, unlike all the other marine engines around at that time had a 2:1 reduction gearbox instead of the more common 3:1. When the prop is fouled, the boatman engages reverse gear to throw the rubbish off, but because of the reduction ratio the Petter's propeller was <always> turning that way, so it never picked up rubbish

 

I think I may have read this in a book on canals many years ago but I really have no idea now where it came from. And the gear ratios may be wrong too, so the whole story is open to correction, but it's a nice little bit of canal lore anyway.

 

 

Steve

 

I think the cork in the water outlet in frosty weather has more credibility. I always do that with my PD.