Fire extinguishers.

[Stroudwater Boy]

One possibly for Rob.

 

I went to my office earlier this week which I very rarely go to due to being a home worker, and I was struck by all the extinguishers having gone missing, I asked the facilities man and he told me that it was as a result of a fire brigade visit, apparently other than in exceptional circumstances it is now recommended not to have any, as they only delay people getting out of the building.

 

I also had a very similar experience at my hotel the following night, which surprised me as I am sure that I can remember reports following hotel fires in the 60's and 70's that missing or faulty fire equipement was at least partly the cause of deaths.

 

My point is that as we are told that boats are particularly dangerous in case of fire due to the materials used and shape etc, is this going to be the next change to the rules? Has all this money we have been spending first changing all our equipment and then replacing regularly now going to have been found, due to the new thinking to have been completely wrong.

[Timleech]

One possibly for Rob.

 

I went to my office earlier this week which I very rarely go to due to being a home worker, and I was struck by all the extinguishers having gone missing, I asked the facilities man and he told me that it was as a result of a fire brigade visit, apparently other than in exceptional circumstances it is now recommended not to have any, as they only delay people getting out of the building.

 

I also had a very similar experience at my hotel the following night, which surprised me as I am sure that I can remember reports following hotel fires in the 60's and 70's that missing or faulty fire equipement was at least partly the cause of deaths.

 

My point is that as we are told that boats are particularly dangerous in case of fire due to the materials used and shape etc, is this going to be the next change to the rules? Has all this money we have been spending first changing all our equipment and then replacing regularly now going to have been found, due to the new thinking to have been completely wrong.

 

There does seem to be a 'change of fashion' here, but I should think that the restricted space of a nb cabin is one place where an extinguisher could save your bacon, by giving you more of a chance to escape a serious fire or help others so to do.

 

Tim

[Hairy-Neil]

by giving you more of a chance to escape a serious fire or help others so to do.

 

Tim

 

Especially when halfway through a long tunnel.....

[smileypete]

One possibly for Rob.

 

I went to my office earlier this week which I very rarely go to due to being a home worker, and I was struck by all the extinguishers having gone missing, I asked the facilities man and he told me that it was as a result of a fire brigade visit, apparently other than in exceptional circumstances it is now recommended not to have any, as they only delay people getting out of the building.

 

I also had a very similar experience at my hotel the following night, which surprised me as I am sure that I can remember reports following hotel fires in the 60's and 70's that missing or faulty fire equipement was at least partly the cause of deaths.

 

My point is that as we are told that boats are particularly dangerous in case of fire due to the materials used and shape etc, is this going to be the next change to the rules? Has all this money we have been spending first changing all our equipment and then replacing regularly now going to have been found, due to the new thinking to have been completely wrong.

 

Inside a boat is the worst place to fight a fire, smaller spaces mean faster buildup of smoke and CO.

 

If you haven't got a smoke alarm then by the time you're aware, smoke and CO poisoning may be almost imminent.

 

I would ignore my wonderous collection of fire extinguishers and get the hell out.

 

If there's a 100% chance of saving your boat with a 10% chance of death by doing so, what would you choose?

 

Edit:

 

The bottom line is that people die in boats without smoke/CO alarms, so a boat without them is a death trap.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited March 20, 2008 by smileypete

[Proper Job]

As a Property Manager of many years I have noted this trend by the fire authorities.

 

The best advice is to get the hell out and leave the fire fighting to the professionals.

 

The only reason most commercial properties have extinguishers now is due to the insurer's. They insist on fire fighting equipment.

 

That said, getting fire professionals to your boat in the middle of the countryside is often not practical.

 

The best advice is don't use an extinguisher unless you've had some training - most local fire brigades can provide training.

 

I know many peple who, before training, would have 'had a go'. Given a live training exercise (often better circumstances and more controlled than the real thing), they would shy away from using them.

[Travis]

I was given what I thought was some sound advice by an old boating friend of mine.

 

If you discover a fire onboard, grab your insurance cerificate if you can....and step off the boat.

 

Andy.

[NB Phoenix]

One possibly for Rob.

 

I went to my office earlier this week which I very rarely go to due to being a home worker, and I was struck by all the extinguishers having gone missing, I asked the facilities man and he told me that it was as a result of a fire brigade visit, apparently other than in exceptional circumstances it is now recommended not to have any, as they only delay people getting out of the building.

 

I also had a very similar experience at my hotel the following night, which surprised me as I am sure that I can remember reports following hotel fires in the 60's and 70's that missing or faulty fire equipement was at least partly the cause of deaths.

 

My point is that as we are told that boats are particularly dangerous in case of fire due to the materials used and shape etc, is this going to be the next change to the rules? Has all this money we have been spending first changing all our equipment and then replacing regularly now going to have been found, due to the new thinking to have been completely wrong.

 

 

This is partly correct; extinguishers are there to protect the escape routes not to protect the building (boat) from fire. So if a fire risk assessment has been carried out and it was considered that persons inside the building could safely, quickly and unaided, escape form a fire to a place of safety (normally deemed outside) along a protected escape route (A protected route is classed as having one hour fire resistance with smoke stop doors and clear vision panels between each section.) Extinguishers would then not be required. It would also be considered how many escape routes there were and the travel distance to the place of safety. There are also other considerations, such as emergency lighting systems, alarm systems and the production process carried out within the building.

 

With regards to boats, it is impossible to build in a protected escape route from inside the vessel, so this is compensated by providing a required number and size of extinguishers as appropriate to the size of vessel.

 

It is therefore important to have well maintained extinguishers, working smoke alarms and I would also personally recommend a good torch kept in the sleeping areas.

Edited March 20, 2008 by NB Phoenix

[PaulG]

I don't think it's really "new thinking", more a return to old-fashioned common sense. Back in the 1970's, I remember letting the fire officer in to inspect a sailing club I belong to. He had a good poke about the fire exits and pronounced himself mostly satisfied. I commented that he had not checked the fire extinguishers (which we had just had serviced at some expense). He replied that it was a wooden building, and, in the event of fire, he didn't want people "b*ggering about with fire extinguishers", he wanted them safely out of the place.

 

Since these enlightened times, of course, his successors have at various times insisted on the club providing lots of extra fire extinguishers of different types in various pretty colours, then replacing these with all-red ones, and then installing an electronic fire alarm system, all of which would be at best useless in the event of a fire.

 

However, I do think that boats are different due to the confined space. I'm always happier having a fire extinguisher to hand.

[magpie patrick]

A lot of food for thought here, for someone who has a 62 footer with no side hatches and simply has whatever the BSS requires by way of fire extinguishers. From what you are saying, they are really to allow me to fight my way out if necessary (and I will be honest: if I could get out without using them I wouldn't hang about). We also had some sausages catch fire last night in our flat... in an electric oven! And this has focussed the mind as I looked at the complete lack of extinsuisher or blanket and the massive drapes by the french windows that were the only escape route! (In case you are wondering we closed the oven door and let them burn until they expired)

 

So: forget the BSS requirements (but also lets be realistic about risk: if the boat catches fire in twelve places at once it just aint my day) what should we be having fitted to ensure we can get out: other than aside hatch which has just gone way up the list! And are domestic CO2 and smoke alarms ok?

 

as an aside, Val came on the boat before we were dating, and was deeply suspicious of me leaving doors unlocked the length of the boat when I was sleeping at one end and her the other. It was as a fire escape... honest

[1066]

The last H&S related course that I was on told us that a fire extinguisher was fine for clearing an escape route .... which included smashing windows with it in order to get out .... but that we should leave the actual fire-fighting to the professionals.

[sherbert]

All fires however large they become start off very very small ie match candle cooker flame if you discover them early on they can be easily put out If arubbish bin caught fire and you realised soon enough before it reallygot hold it would be daft to jump ship and just let it develope and destroy the entire boat so having an extinguisher handy can soon solve what could be a disaster If on the other hand you are woken in the night by your smoke alarm going offto find the whole of the other end of the boat going well then an extinguisher is no use so get out asap The diffiulty comes in deciding what can be delt with without endangering oneself and what sould be abandoned for safetys sake Another problem is that a litte training could make you a litte too ambitious in what you think you are capable of

[RLWP]

The diffiulty comes in deciding what can be delt with without endangering oneself and what sould be abandoned for safetys sake

 

This is the most dangerous bit of all. While you are deciding, the fire is growing, smoke is spreading, carbon monoxide is building up, time is running out. Current thinking is get out - it's only a boat.

 

Richard

[fender]

One possibly for Rob.

 

I went to my office earlier this week which I very rarely go to due to being a home worker, and I was struck by all the extinguishers having gone missing, I asked the facilities man and he told me that it was as a result of a fire brigade visit, apparently other than in exceptional circumstances it is now recommended not to have any, as they only delay people getting out of the building.

 

I also had a very similar experience at my hotel the following night, which surprised me as I am sure that I can remember reports following hotel fires in the 60's and 70's that missing or faulty fire equipement was at least partly the cause of deaths.

 

My point is that as we are told that boats are particularly dangerous in case of fire due to the materials used and shape etc, is this going to be the next change to the rules? Has all this money we have been spending first changing all our equipment and then replacing regularly now going to have been found, due to the new thinking to have been completely wrong.

 

 

I first heard of this in the local London freebie newspaper last week. Whilst I cant find an online version of that very same article, I have found one here at the Times instead which relates the happenings in Bournemeouth that led to this decision

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3525380.ece

 

PS an afterthought - I remember the London underground system withdrew all its fire extinguishers about 10 years ago, thats one massive public undertaking that operates without a single extinguisher on any of its trains!

Edited March 20, 2008 by fender

[NB Phoenix]

PS an afterthought - I remember the London underground system withdrew all its fire extinguishers about 10 years ago, thats one massive public undertaking that operates without a single extinguisher on any of its trains!

 

This was due to money and the use of extinguishers as weapons not because of fire safety concerns! LINK

[WJM]

" Current thinking is get out - it's only a boat"

 

 

Sprinkler systems in the tunnels then? - or a extinguisher loan system for tunnel transits, collect one on the way in and hand it back on the way out?

[Ewart Hodgson]

Interesting topic. If I woke to a fire, I'd get out, but if I start one due to careless welding or having a match head fly off, then I would definitely grab an extinguisher and stop a tiny flame becoming a big fire. I've been in this situation several times in my laboratory (work) or workshop (home) over the years and extinguishers are brilliant at putting out a tiny fledgeling fire that has not yet had a chance to fill the place with smoke. Whatever the new thinking, I'll keep carrying my 9-litre foam extinguishers (and keep the one in my house, and the one in my workshop... I'm way too careless and accident prone to trust myself without one :-) ).

[NB Phoenix]

Interesting topic. If I woke to a fire, I'd get out, but if I start one due to careless welding or having a match head fly off, then I would definitely grab an extinguisher and stop a tiny flame becoming a big fire. I've been in this situation several times in my laboratory (work) or workshop (home) over the years and extinguishers are brilliant at putting out a tiny fledgeling fire that has not yet had a chance to fill the place with smoke. Whatever the new thinking, I'll keep carrying my 9-litre foam extinguishers (and keep the one in my house, and the one in my workshop... I'm way too careless and accident prone to trust myself without one :-) ).

 

Yes totally agree, extinguishers are a "first aid" measure and as you say if you start or discover a SMALL fire, that's their limit. The "new" thinking is that untrained people should be put into a position where they believe they are obliged to tackle a developing fire just because they are first to the fire extinguisher.

 

To quote a slogan used for the last twenty odd years.

 

GET OUT... STAY OUT... CALL THE FIRE BRIGADE OUT

[fender]

This was due to money and the use of extinguishers as weapons not because of fire safety concerns! LINK

 

Yes, Phoenix, you are right there thanks for the link to the article - but the safety issue in tunnels remain.

 

Anyone remember the Gletscherbahn Kaprun disaster a few years ago?

 

I think fire prevention should be left in place, no matter how silly the bods making these decisions get. Sooner or later someone'll wish they had a fire extinguisher when they find their way blocked by fire in either directon

[RobinR]

The FIA (Fire Industry Association) document below may be of interest:

 

PRESS STATEMENT

The banning of fire extinguishers from two blocks of flats in Bournemouth

after being identified as a health and safety risk has been widely reported

in the UK media. Below is a response from Graham Ellicott, CEO of the

Fire Industry Association (FIA) and Tom Carroll, Former Chief Fire Officer

of Cambridge Fire & Rescue Service and Past President of the Chief Fire

Officers Association (CFOA).

“Fire extinguishers are an invaluable part of one’s overall fire safety plan and play

a key role in protecting both life and property from fire,” said Graham Ellicott,

CEO of the FIA. “The decision to remove fire extinguishers from the flats in

Bournemouth is contrary to a recent survey conducted by the FIA which showed

that of 400 fire incidents, approximately 80 percent were successfully

extinguished by a portable fire extinguisher, eliminating the need for fire brigade

intervention.”

Tom Carroll, Former Chief Fire Officer of Cambridge Fire & Rescue Service and

Past President of the Chief Fire Officers Association (CFOA) comments: “The fire

and rescue services know how important fire extinguishers are. We get to fire

incidents as quickly as we can but we are not there on the ground when the

incident occurs and if a fire can be tackled safely with the intervention of a fire

extinguisher in those first few vital minutes, then that can obviously prevent a

minor incident turning into a major conflagration. The survey demonstrated that

in many instances we are not always aware that a fire has taken place because it

has been dealt with effectively by a fire extinguisher. However, we advocate that

even these incidents should be reported so that the important follow-up advice

can be given. In no way are we advocating that the general public put

themselves in danger but if it is safe to do so, then an extinguisher can be an

invaluable ally.”

Graham Ellicott, continues – “The Dorset Fire & Rescue Service suggests that it

is dangerous for residents to leave their flats in order to fetch a fire extinguisher

from a hallway and then return to the blaze. But what if the fire is in the hallway -

an extinguisher could aid in creating an escape route. I feel very strongly that

we should not remove equipment that could save someone’s life. The removal of

fire extinguishers from blocks of flats would create more risks, not only to the

building and to the fire fighters but, more importantly, to the residents

themselves.”

Graham Ellicott and Tom Carroll are available for further comment/interview.

Contact: Chris Twigger, FIA Press Office, c/o Shaw & Underwood PR

Tel: 0121 622 6868 Mobile: 07795 423796

e-mail: christwigger@shawandunderwood.co.uk

 

With regard to industry, there are numerous examples where extinguishers have saved factories thus preventing jobs going overseas. Removal of extinguishers will ENSURE they do so! One final point, it is not unknown for parts of people to catch fire - I've seen the unedited Hillsborough TV video - with extinguishers removed how would YOU extinguish a work colleague who had themself caught fire? (or a fellow resident in a block of flats?)

[gralyn]

The FIA (Fire Industry Association) document below may be of interest:

 

how would YOU extinguish a work colleague who had themself caught fire? (or a fellow resident in a block of flats?)

 

Not with a Dry Powder Fire extinguisher!. The accepted method is to smother the flames either in a blanket or role the victim on the ground.

[Malarky]

Unlike gas, poisonous smoke rises, keep as low as possible when leaving a burning boat. Idealy we should avoid plastic and foam derived products completely. It would be cool if most huddles of boats had a motorised water pump amongst them, to smash windows and pump water at fires, from outside.

[NB Alnwick]

Unlike gas, poisonous smoke rises, keep as low as possible when leaving a burning boat. Idealy we should avoid plastic and foam derived products completely. It would be cool if most huddles of boats had a motorised water pump amongst them, to smash windows and pump water at fires, from outside.

 

It is our biggest fear but we still use candles and tea-lights and fill our boats with all sorts of combustible materials. If you wanted to decine a personal crematorium it would look much like a steel narrowboat . . .

[RobinR]

Not with a Dry Powder Fire extinguisher!. The accepted method is to smother the flames either in a blanket or role the victim on the ground.

 

Obviously, but in flats AFFF would suffice and be ok in communal areas because there is unlikely to be an electrical risk (and of course spray foam has a claimed electrical safety well above domestic voltages). Regarding boats, there are fire blankets which can be used in this situation. Powder is a risk to asthmatics especially in confined areas such as a narrowboat where 6kg of dry powder will make one almighty mess! Can a case be made for their removal from boats? What are the alternatives? A return to Halon??!! Maybe narrowboats and similar should be fitted with high pressure water mist systems?