electrolux 3.5kw travel pack

[Baloo]

A 900W microwave is actually 1800W electricty consumption (they are only 50% efficient) plus it will take a large surge current at switch on. You will need at least a 2500W inverter to start the microwave and run it. The microwave (not counting the grill) will consume 30AH every 10 minutes.

 

Your proposed electricity requirements are so large that you will have terrible problems trying to replenish the charge (charging needs 50% MORE put back in than you took out, due to battery physics). I believe it will all end in tears.

 

Have you done a power audit for a typical day in AH? What size and number of batteries do you have? Remember you're not supposed to run your engine after 8pm at night so you can't rely on the travelpack then.

 

Why do you think that 99% of boaters use gas for cooking? I'm not trying to be intentionally negative, I just want to get you thinking deeper about your supply and demand curve.

Chris

don't worry about negativity, i value all advice, honestly

 

i did suspect that the inverter wouldn't come very well with the combination oven, but that isn't really the intention...

on the mooring we have a shore line. so the only thing we have to worry about is our credit....

 

If whilst cruising we are moored on the cut for a period of time we are assuming that the travel pack will be needed whenever the combination oven is in use,(unless only microwaving for short times) which will mean that our 12v alternators are charging up the leisure batteries. which will be necessary anyway

 

Its' not every time we cook a meal remember

we will have a gas hob which is where most of our cooking is done at home anyway.

we only have experience of two lpg ovens on narrow boats and found them to be disappointingly slow, ie take recmmended cooking time and double it! so we where thinking of a different approach...

 

 

On the assumptions stated above, that should take the combination oven out of the equation with respect to the energy audit..

 

havent done a detailed power audit yet, need to select fridge freezer first for that. have read articles saying 240 volt domestic ones are best if you have an inverter because the appliances are better insulated, but most people I have spoken to strongly disagree and recommend the 12 volt ones.

have seen a couple of 12v fridge freezers on midland chandlery's website but as yet have found no data on their power usage.

 

Does it still seem doomed ?!

Edited March 7, 2008 by Baloo

[Ernie]

Gary is right, you WILL need a good generator. I have nowhere near your power needs and would find it difficult to survive with just my Electrolux. As Gary mentioned above (and I did in my earlier post) the electrolux is OK for low loads for a short space of time, I wouldn't recomend it for your loads.

[JohnO]

Laptop Chargers?

We have jet to investigage whether a 12 v charger is for available for our laptop and how much power a laptop uses yet

 

this sort of thing!

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/UNIVERSAL-LAPTOP-POW...1QQcmdZViewItem

[MikeV]

I bought my boat last year and it had a combined grill/microwave like you have bought, but no inverter - only a 3.5kW travelpower. Fitting an inverter will be one of this year's jobs, so knowing how much power will be a factor in how much the grill part get's used. We're only going to be long term summer cruisers - not livaboard, so can afford to adjust our lifestyle to suit the power available.

 

I bought myself a power & energy monitor so I can check what power I am really using in day-to-day usage of an appliance. I got mine from Maplin for £9.99 when they were on special offer, but if you look on eBay there are plenty for sale.

 

Plug-In Mains Power and Energy Monitor

Prompted by Chris W's post, I plugged mine into the home microwave, which I think is 800W, and heated a cup of water for 2 minutes on High.

 

It was using 7amps while operating and registered 0.06KWh at the end of 2 minutes. So allowing for inverter inefficiencies it would draw about 170amps from the battery. This will be 5.6 aH, or about 2.5% of my usable battery capacity of 440Ah (not allowing for Peukert). My wife uses the microwave a lot for cooking vegatables, so I can see some re-education is going to be needed here!

 

I was also suprised that it showed it draws 5 watts even in standby, which is 0.12kWh per day. If I had a model like this on the boat I would turn it off when not in use at the socket, so something to think of as you fit your power points that they can easily be reached to conserve energy.

 

I have bought another power indulgance for the boat, but I think this will be OK based occasional use. It's the smallest model George Forman grill I've seen. It's rated at 700W but we have one at home and we find it's great for fish (5-6 minutes) or chops (8-10 minutes). Because it is in direct contact with the food it cooks very quickly. Our experience of gas grills is they are rather feeble, but may have just been the model on our last boat.

 

//Mike

[Baloo]

Gary is right, you WILL need a good generator. I have nowhere near your power needs and would find it difficult to survive with just my Electrolux. As Gary mentioned above (and I did in my earlier post) the electrolux is OK for low loads for a short space of time, I wouldn't recomend it for your loads.

ok can you give me some quantities please Ernie?If i am running the engine at 1200rpm what kind of power can this generate?Do you have to run your engine at max revs to achieve the stated 3.5kW? could be a bit noisy?! albeit with hospital silencer.For short space of time what fo you mean by this? this isn't battery power we are considering.... do you mean the desireable length of time for running your engine not to be a nuisance or are we talking about excessive wear to the engine whilst running the electrolux?

this sort of thing!http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/UNIVERSAL-LAPTOP-POW...1QQcmdZViewItem

thanks for the tip JohnO

[GUMPY]

I was also suprised that it showed it draws 5 watts even in standby, which is 0.12kWh per day. If I had a model like this on the boat I would turn it off when not in use at the socket, so something to think of as you fit your power points that they can easily be reached to conserve energy.

 

 

Its a good policy to turn everything off at the socket when not in use, even small items like mobile phone chargers, it all adds up alarmingly quickly.

I did a quick assesment and if everything on my boat was not switced off at the socket it would be the same as leaving a 60watt lightbulb burning 24/7.

[NB Phoenix]

Hi

 

I am running a similar set up to the one you are proposing, with the exception of the electric cooking. (Ours is gas)

 

We have a washer/dryer, dish washer, microwave combi, a 240v domestic fridge and a whirlpool bath

 

TV and laptop are combined using a USB digital TV thingy. Laptop is run using the 240v adaptor.

 

Power is provided via a Victron Phoenix 12/1200/50 inverter/charger, 4x110Ah domestic batteries and the 3.5Kv travelpower. We manage to survive winter cruising but found our biggest drain was the 12v lighting. I am now in the middle of converting to LED lighting. (Thanks Chris W for the recommendation of “UltraLED.co.uk” well impressed with service and products).

 

Again like you we mainly do extended cruising (we’re not liveaboard, yet), so only use the washers whilst underway. I have a separate circuit for them so there is no way I can use either via the inverter by mistake.

 

I can see you main problem being cooking! You say you intend to have a gas hob so why not an oven as well? At home SHMBO has all electric but onboard all gas and prefers the gas!

 

So there’s my spanner in the works but remember, it’s what suits you that counts. Good luck with the build.

 

Regards

 

NB Phoenix

[Baloo]

Hi

 

I am running a similar set up to the one you are proposing, with the exception of the electric cooking. (Ours is gas)

 

We have a washer/dryer, dish washer, microwave combi, a 240v domestic fridge and a whirlpool bath

 

TV and laptop are combined using a USB digital TV thingy. Laptop is run using the 240v adaptor.

 

Power is provided via a Victron Phoenix 12/1200/50 inverter/charger, 4x110Ah domestic batteries and the 3.5Kv travelpower. We manage to survive winter cruising but found our biggest drain was the 12v lighting. I am now in the middle of converting to LED lighting. (Thanks Chris W for the recommendation of “UltraLED.co.uk” well impressed with service and products).

 

Again like you we mainly do extended cruising (we’re not liveaboard, yet), so only use the washers whilst underway. I have a separate circuit for them so there is no way I can use either via the inverter by mistake.

 

I can see you main problem being cooking! You say you intend to have a gas hob so why not an oven as well? At home SHMBO has all electric but onboard all gas and prefers the gas!

 

So there’s my spanner in the works but remember, it’s what suits you that counts. Good luck with the build.

 

Regards

 

NB Phoenix

you have a dishwasher on your boat! all mod cons eh!

We struggling to design suitable place for the sink at the mo!

forgive my ignorance of abbreviations but what does SHMBO mean, and what gas oven/ grill is this?

[Nickhlx]

I put the request for general lighting by LED lights to Rob at UltraLEDS yesterday and he came back with this this morning

 

 

 

Nick these are the best to use -

 

http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/advanced_search...iling&osCsi

d=29ccf943c81402fe795849a5c69ce049

 

we have some more on order in warm white -

 

they are brightest and best regulated

 

 

Nick

[Ernie]

ok can you give me some quantities please Ernie?If i am running the engine at 1200rpm what kind of power can this generate?Do you have to run your engine at max revs to achieve the stated 3.5kW? could be a bit noisy?! albeit with hospital silencer.For short space of time what fo you mean by this? this isn't battery power we are considering.... do you mean the desireable length of time for running your engine not to be a nuisance or are we talking about excessive wear to the engine whilst running the electrolux?thanks for the tip JohnO

I have to run my engine at around 1400-1500 revs to run my 1200W washing machine. The wash cycle takes around 80 minutes. Having the engine running for that length of time is not very pleasant, especially as we run the washing machine 2 or 3 times a week in the winter. We also charge our batteries while running the washing machine to make best use of the time the generator is on. I found that the Electrolux would not run the chargers and washing machine concurrently when the batteries are low. The charger is 80Amps.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we need to run the generator for around 2 (sometime 3) hours every night that we have not been travelling in order to keep our batteries topped up. I would not want to run my main engine for 2 hours every night because of: 1) Engine wear and tear, 2) Engine noise and vibration, 3) Cost of engine servicing. Our power needs are not that high as all cooking is by gas. We have a microwave but it only gets used about once a month for defrosting. Our biggest energy users are the 12V fridge and freezer. It’s the fridge and freezer that forces us to spend 2 hours or so re-charging the batteries every night.

 

I have never loaded my Electrolux up to the 3.5kw maximum load, I don’t know why but I just wouldn’t feel comfortable doing so (not very scientific!!). I have had some trouble with my Electrolux setup but I think I have just been very unlucky. A bit of info here: http://www.erniesplace.com/_BoatingDiaries..._Hempsteadl.htm Over the past 18 months or so I have had three Electrolux alternator mounting brackets fail and 2 drive belts fail – and this has been with light loads.

 

I am really not trying to be negative about the Electrolux. I think they are fine for occasional use but I don’t think you will be happy with it if you are living aboard and running the kind of loads that you are thinking of.

[NB Phoenix]

you have a dishwasher on your boat! all mod cons eh!

We struggling to design suitable place for the sink at the mo!

forgive my ignorance of abbreviations but what does SHMBO mean, and what gas oven/ grill is this?

 

Sorry it's my dyslexic fingers, it should be SWMBO as in "she who must be obeyed"

 

OUCH and SWMBO was standing behind me when I typed this.

[Baloo]

Sorry it's my dyslexic fingers, it should be SWMBO as in "she who must be obeyed"

 

OUCH and SWMBO was standing behind me when I typed this.

aah i see

busted!

[blackrose]

You know Baloo, as well as thinking up ways to increase your power supply, perhaps part of the solution to your electrical demand/supply issues might be to try and reduce your power demand.

 

Either consciously or intuitively that's what most of us do on our boats.

Edited March 8, 2008 by blackrose

[chris w]

Prompted by Chris W's post, I plugged mine into the home microwave, which I think is 800W, and heated a cup of water for 2 minutes on High.It was using 7amps while operating and registered 0.06KWh at the end of 2 minutes. So allowing for inverter inefficiencies it would draw about 170amps from the battery. This will be 5.6 aH, or about 2.5% of my usable battery capacity of 440Ah (not allowing for Peukert). My wife uses the microwave a lot for cooking vegatables, so I can see some re-education is going to be needed here!I was also suprised that it showed it draws 5 watts even in standby, which is 0.12kWh per day. If I had a model like this on the boat I would turn it off when not in use at the socket, so something to think of as you fit your power points that they can easily be reached to conserve energy.I have bought another power indulgance for the boat, but I think this will be OK based occasional use. It's the smallest model George Forman grill I've seen. It's rated at 700W but we have one at home and we find it's great for fish (5-6 minutes) or chops (8-10 minutes). Because it is in direct contact with the food it cooks very quickly. Our experience of gas grills is they are rather feeble, but may have just been the model on our last boat.//Mike

 

Mike

 

Here's a shock for you. Your estimation of the battery capacity used by a microwave is far higher than you think. The reason is that one can't ignore Peukert. As your test shows, the nominal 800W microwave is actually 1700W in reality. (ie: 50% efficiency only).

 

Your nominal 440AH of battery capacity have an actual capacity of 1112AH of which 50% is usable (without damaging the batteries). This is 556AH.

 

A microwave drawing 170A will use all of this capacity in just 42 minutes. Now, I appreciate you won't have your microwave on for 42 minutes at one sitting, but in cooking a meal it'll probably be used for 10 minutes and maybe the same again at some other time of the day. Each 10 minutes of the microwave will use 132AH of your 556AH available capacity. That's around 25% of your total available capacity.

 

Your George Forman grill at 700W will use 42AH every 10 minutes or around 8% of your total available capacity. I guess 20 minutes is more realistic for this grill as it has to heat up first thus consuming around 16% of your available capacity.

 

Chris

Edited March 8, 2008 by chris w

[Ernie]

Mike

 

Here's a shock for you. Your estimation of the battery capacity used by a microwave is far higher than you think. The reason is that one can't ignore Peukert. As your test shows, the nominal 800W microwave is actually 1700W in reality. (ie: 50% efficiency only).

 

Your nominal 440AH of battery capacity have an actual capacity of 1112AH of which 50% is usable (without damaging the batteries). This is 556AH.

 

A microwave drawing 170A will use all of this capacity in just 42 minutes. Now, I appreciate you won't have your microwave on for 42 minutes at one sitting, but in cooking a meal it'll probably be used for 10 minutes and maybe the same again at some other time of the day. Each 10 minutes of the microwave will use 132AH of your 556AH available capacity. That's around 25% of your total available capacity.

 

Your George Forman grill at 700W will use 42AH every 10 minutes or around 8% of your total available capacity. I guess 20 minutes is more realistic for this grill as it has to heat up first thus consuming around 16% of your available capacity.

 

Chris

And just think how long it will take to charge your batteries back up to full charge - that's the real problem.

[chris w]

And just think how long it will take to charge your batteries back up to full charge - that's the real problem.

 

Exactly so

[Baloo]

I have to run my engine at around 1400-1500 revs to run my 1200W washing machine. The wash cycle takes around 80 minutes. Having the engine running for that length of time is not very pleasant, especially as we run the washing machine 2 or 3 times a week in the winter. We also charge our batteries while running the washing machine to make best use of the time the generator is on. I found that the Electrolux would not run the chargers and washing machine concurrently when the batteries are low. The charger is 80Amps.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we need to run the generator for around 2 (sometime 3) hours every night that we have not been travelling in order to keep our batteries topped up. I would not want to run my main engine for 2 hours every night because of: 1) Engine wear and tear, 2) Engine noise and vibration, 3) Cost of engine servicing. Our power needs are not that high as all cooking is by gas. We have a microwave but it only gets used about once a month for defrosting. Our biggest energy users are the 12V fridge and freezer. It’s the fridge and freezer that forces us to spend 2 hours or so re-charging the batteries every night.

 

I have never loaded my Electrolux up to the 3.5kw maximum load, I don’t know why but I just wouldn’t feel comfortable doing so (not very scientific!!). I have had some trouble with my Electrolux setup but I think I have just been very unlucky. A bit of info here: http://www.erniesplace.com/_BoatingDiaries..._Hempsteadl.htm Over the past 18 months or so I have had three Electrolux alternator mounting brackets fail and 2 drive belts fail – and this has been with light loads.

 

I am really not trying to be negative about the Electrolux. I think they are fine for occasional use but I don’t think you will be happy with it if you are living aboard and running the kind of loads that you are thinking of.

ok then this thread was started to find out if my builder was charging too much for the travel pack, (£2650) but it seems that more importantly like the general consensus is the electrolux will not meet my needs and i need a generator.

I'm thinking maybe I should forget the travel pack in the first place and put the money towards getting a generator installed from the start. In which case i think i need some help to specify whichas I will have to give the builder some dimensions pretty soon. I have just been having a look at the Mastervolt Whisper 3.5, is this going to have the performance i require ? ie 3kW peak load. I suspect I going to have to go bigger? But what are your thoughts please?

 

Your thoughts please.

[Edders]

We have a similar power requirement and have a Mastervolt Whisper 6 with a Mastervolt 2000w Combi. It meets all our requirements and allows us to run more than one appliance at once.

 

Edders

[bottle]

Baloo

 

I would not have the knowledge to advise on any particular make but have been told (by the Mastervolt rep) that for liveaboard/heavy use it is better to have one thats rpm is 1500 rather than 3000.

[Baloo]

1500rpm sounds best.

I think that the generator will have to go on the front of the boat as there is not going to be amy room for it at the stern....we are having a tug style bow with a cratch shaped locker on the tug deck.

have been to maplins today to buy a plug in power & Energy monitor..

have also been searching the internet for suppliers of mastervolt whisper gens,

got the list of retailers off the mastervolt website and its all chandlers but as yet none of their websites reveal any prices.....

will have to do a phone round in the week, but in the mean time can anyone give me a point in the right direction for dealers of generators, ie accoustic cocooned compact ones like the mastervolts?

[NB Willawaw]

Try Keith Meadowcroft at Voltmaster in Hinckley keith -at- volt-master.co.uk

 

Ive got an out of date price list if you want an order of magntitude.

 

Make sure you get the one with the keel cooler as many are raw water cooled and intended

for coastal boating.

 

Nice genset - we have the Ultra 6000 based on the Mitsubishi prime mover.

[Baloo]

Try Keith Meadowcroft at Voltmaster in Hinckley keith -at- volt-master.co.uk

 

Ive got an out of date price list if you want an order of magntitude.

 

Make sure you get the one with the keel cooler as many are raw water cooled and intended

for coastal boating.

 

Nice genset - we have the Ultra 6000 based on the Mitsubishi prime mover.

um yes please.

we will be having a keel cooling tank on the boat for the main engine, i have to confess i dont know about how keel cooling so i dont know if keel cooling for a gen set could be arranged, particulary if the gennie was on the front of the boat.

 

i've just been on the lings website

 

http://www.lings.com/lingscentralapp_core....2C7E2RpOH412410

 

and i see that you can run two generators in parallel, would this mean that if I had two Honda EU20 i generators rated1.6kW max 2kW...........linked with the cable i could have 3.2kW rated and 4kW max power?

 

last question,

do you just plug generator into the shoreline socket at the back of the boat or is so additional wiring required?

Edited March 9, 2008 by Baloo

[Dylan]

um yes please.

we will be having a keel cooling tank on the boat for the main engine, i have to confess i dont know about how keel cooling so i dont know if keel cooling for a gen set could be arranged, particulary if the gennie was on the front of the boat.

 

i've just been on the lings website

 

http://www.lings.com/lingscentralapp_core....2C7E2RpOH412410

 

and i see that you can run two generators in parallel, would this mean that if I had two Honda EU20 i generators rated1.6kW max 2kW...........linked with the cable i could have 3.2kW rated and 4kW max power?

Exactly what one boat on our marina does with Honda gennies. He only needs to fire both gennies up for the washer I think. It is essential to use the proper Honda linking cable though he tells me.

Edited March 9, 2008 by Dylan

[NB Willawaw]

I have just read the full thread and think that trying to run a keel cooled genset in the bow might be problematic.

I am working on a project at the moment where they have a large space under the tug deck, which is just crying out for a genset.

 

To run a petrol genset below decks causes all kinds of problems and we have ended up looking at air cooled diesels.

 

I suspect that most users of Honda suitcase style gensets plug them into their shore supply connectors as "temporary" non-installed gensets.

Earthing of the genset is important.

 

um yes please.

we will be having a keel cooling tank on the boat for the main engine, i have to confess i dont know about how keel cooling so i dont know if keel cooling for a gen set could be arranged, particulary if the gennie was on the front of the boat.

 

i've just been on the lings website

 

http://www.lings.com/lingscentralapp_core....2C7E2RpOH412410

 

and i see that you can run two generators in parallel, would this mean that if I had two Honda EU20 i generators rated1.6kW max 2kW...........linked with the cable i could have 3.2kW rated and 4kW max power?

 

last question,

do you just plug generator into the shoreline socket at the back of the boat or is so additional wiring required?

[Baloo]

Exactly what one boat on our marina does with Honda gennies. He only needs to fire both gennies up for the washer I think. It is essential to use the proper Honda linking cable though he tells me.

with eu 20i's?and how noisy are these

I have just read the full thread and think that trying to run a keel cooled genset in the bow might be problematic.I am working on a project at the moment where they have a large space under the tug deck, which is just crying out for a genset.To run a petrol genset below decks causes all kinds of problems and we have ended up looking at air cooled diesels.I suspect that most users of Honda suitcase style gensets plug them into their shore supply connectors as "temporary" non-installed gensets.Earthing of the genset is important.

i doubt the wife would go along with that,our bed is under the tug deck!