New boat specifications

[Gary Peacock]

The tradition among boatbuilders at least in the inland waterways sector is normaly to advertise the lowest price you can with a very low specification and then to "hit" the customer with lots of extras to bump up the specification (And Price!) to an acceptable level later.

 

Rightly or wrongly that is the common marketing method used.

 

For the last few years we have tried to offer a higher than most specification without the need for extras or upgrades to be added to get the boat to an acceptable specification for it's intended use.

 

I am now wondering if this is the direction to carry on with or if the methods is the one customers seem to prefer.

 

I get the feeling that few new potential boat buyers look that far beyond purely the initial price and only glance at the boats actual specification, but at a later date are happy for this initial price to inflate sometimes quite dramatically.

 

I have a lot of the why are you £10K more expensive than so and so conversations and when you explain the difference in specifications it still seems to go over the heads of many.

 

This leaves me a little bemused as to which direction to go in the future.

 

It definitely seems to make better business sense to consider adopting the more common approach of lowering the apparent initial price to attract more interest and appearing more competitive initially but the practise does sit a bit uneasy with me.

[greywolf]

I think in my case there would be a finite amount of money that i would be willing or able to invest in a boat, and this would depend on usage, if it was intended for a live aboard then it may be treated as one might treat a house investment, with a morgage etc and be prepared to spend for the best spec around . If it were to be used as part of your trade then again you might spend more freely as you would be hoping to get a dependable craft that would not let you down,and you would hope to recoupe some of the costs. If you were just useing it at weekends then you would be interested in the cost and may be ready to accept a lesser quality because the tendancy is that somewhate like a car the price of a boat will decrease to some extent rather than increase like a house, the lesser quality will do. but this is just me talking about the way i on a fixed budget would look at the price,i do not like debt, i would not enter into any extras deal either i would be unlikely to be able to afford it,and would expect the original specs.Dose this help?

 

It would be nice to know that you could trust your builder to give advice about the feasability of there plans for usage. It might also be considered that a person that boats on the canals for good or ill may not understand the nuts and Bolts of specs and how this aids longevity, usability ect, after all a lot of people drive but have no idia as to the parts that make up the car or how to fix them.Hopefully an association like you have started may improve and educate first time buyers.

Edited January 24, 2008 by greywolf

[Yoda]

I think it's a case of offering lower prices to get people locked into buying and then get them to spec the boat to bump up the cost/value price.

 

As we are now in a full recession and will be for a couple of years or more, I have no idea of how to help you with this low price/spec. problem.

 

I think that you now must offer a completed hull price and then prices for all electrics, motive power and then fitout, which is what you probably do now.

[Yoda]

Just had another thought. There cannot be any comparisons on price between you and other builders as there is nothing in common with the designs. Your boats are unique as no one else produces boats like yours.

[NFA]

.........................

For the last few years we have tried to offer a higher than most specification without the need for extras or upgrades to be added to get the boat to an acceptable specification for it's intended use.

........................

 

Hi Gary,

 

How do you know the vessels intended use? When you know it's use then it's time to quote for upgrading the spec; if neccessary. ie, the advertised price includes a 35hp engine , fine for the canals. But if the vessel is doing much river work, then suggest an upgrade to 45hp etc.

 

If you include a bow thruster in your price, leave it out. That's definitely an extra. I for one wouldn't want one. It's just another bit of kit to go wrong and only needed by peeps that can't handle their boat.

 

When you're advertising a general price I suggest you should keep it as a competative base price. Then discuss and suggest upgrades when you have enquiries and know the boats future useage.

 

Don't forget; No enquiries = No sales.

[greywolf]

But buyers do need to understand how these better specs effect the boat,dose it make it last longer?steer better? I have for instance seen steel spec mentioned in ads,i have no notion of which is best, i assume one rusts more slowly or is more ridged. A boater asking you why your boats are more expensive than others is a buyer seeking knowledge,hopefully you can explain how your work will improve their experience and then they can chose. Car manufactures produce luxury cars and basic cars,you might love to own the jag etc but can only afford the mini.

[Semitrad]

Really depends on the state of your order book Gary! If it is full you can afford to only specify boats you would buy yourself, this of course reduces the number of prospective customers and also timewasters. If orders are slowing you must use all means available to you to stay profitable, you are a business after all and anyone can run a business at a loss. It's no good relying on being "the best" pride goes before a fall! When you go to buy a new car they start from basic models and a good salesman will always try to get you to buy the better spec models, this is what the customer secretly wants! Often higher profits can be made from the accessories than from the main product, you have to make a choice, is boatbuilding a hobby or a business, and act accordingly.

[blackrose]

If you include a bow thruster in your price, leave it out. That's definitely an extra. I for one wouldn't want one. It's just another bit of kit to go wrong and only needed by peeps that can't handle their boat.

 

What bollocks!

 

For starters, most of Gary's boats are much bigger then your average narrowboat. That is not to say he should include a BT in the price, but handling a big widebeam without a BT is a bit more of a challenge than a narrowboat. Anyway, I can handle my widebeam perfectly well without my bowthruster and I can handle narrowboats without BTs too. A neighbour who's partner has run away asked me if I could take her narrowboat back from the pump out into her slightly tricky pontoon mooring only the other day. I duly obliged without hitting any other boats and without a problem.

 

Yes, they can go wrong but so can an engine, a gearbox, a battery charger, a battery monitor, a battery, a diesel heater, a lightbulb, a TV, a water pump, a shower pump, a fire extinguisher, a microwave oven, a computer...

 

... a hairdryer, a CD player, a digital camera, an extractor fan, a 12v fridge, a gas fridge, a pump out toilet...

Edited January 24, 2008 by blackrose

[Fletcher]

Just a suggestion, as someone who has been looking at various boat designs and trying to gauge average prices, accesorys ect ect... it would be handy if possible on a builders website there was a detailed list of lets say the most requested or standerd hull types with a given price, the potential buyer could then add on whatever he/she wants included in the build. would make the "mind boggling pre-buying research" a hell of a lot easyer. the potential buyer could then contact you for any specifics or for confirming prices and anything els that needs more detail.

So basically giving the person the abillity to work things out for themselvs and saving endless replies to phonecalls, letters and e-mails. Let them work it out and if they are interested they can get in touch.

 

There is no such thing as a time waster, if someone is about to make one of the biggest purchases of thier lives of course they are going to ask loads of questions and shop around before they commit.

 

just my two cents

[NFA]

........but handling a big widebeam without a BT is a bit more of a challenge than a narrowboat. Anyway, I can handle my widebeam perfectly well without my bowthruster and I can handle narrowboats without BTs too. A neighbour who's partner has run away asked me if I could take her narrowboat back from the pump out into her slightly tricky pontoon mooring only the other day. I duly obliged without hitting any other boats and without a problem.

 

.........

 

I do not understand why your neighbour's partner running away has anything to do with their lack of ability to handle their boat. Nor has it anything to do with Gary's original question.

 

Thankyou for agreeing with me and confirming that you can effectively handle a boat without a BT.

 

You have proved that you know what you are doing and also that BTs are not needed if you understand helming, wind, prop thrust, warping, and any currents etc etc

 

I have now responded to your abusive posting. I suggest we leave it at that and not take this thread

 

I'm sure BTs have been discussed elsewhere

[blackrose]

I do not understand why your neighbour's partner running away has anything to do with their lack of ability to handle their boat. Nor has it anything to do with Gary's original question.

 

Thankyou for agreeing with me and confirming that you can effectively handle a boat without a BT.

 

You have proved that you know what you are doing and also that BTs are not needed if you understand helming, wind, prop thrust, warping, and any currents etc etc

 

I have now responded to your abusive posting. I suggest we leave it at that and not take this thread

 

I'm sure BTs have been discussed elsewhere

 

You originally took the thread off topic by telling us that only "peeps" who couldn't handle their boats needed bow thrusters. What did that have to do with Gary's original question?

 

There are plenty of people with many years of boating experience who can handle their boats yet choose to have bow thrusters.

 

Yes, BT have been discussed many times on the forum and had you seen the arguments on those threads perhaps you might not have made the comment you did which I also found offensive. If you're going to make such comments about boating ability of forum members then expect a reaction.

 

I guess some people were making similar sorts of snide remarks when engines were introduced on narrowboats instead of horses.

Edited January 24, 2008 by blackrose

[Yoda]

No more about bow thrusters please.

[greywolf]

I have always wondered about the term time wasters to,i did 18 years in retail and you did get people who came back and back never buying anything,sometimes they never did,often they did the shurest way of driving customers or potential customers away is to label them as time wasters when they are merely wondering if the could possible have enough spare cash to buy new or need to go second hand.

 

Selling up was also a skill,were you sell an item slightly more expensive than the one they came in for.I never did that as i had had it done to me, i preferred to ask questions about use, you could then advise a range of items from the basic which did the job to the deluxe with all the bells and whistles,half of which they would never use or need but spoke luxury. in my case i sold cameras. We sold lots of the former and very very few of the latter.I think as others have said you need a range, Pools winner to scratch card winner.

[steelaway]

Just a suggestion, as someone who has been looking at various boat designs and trying to gauge average prices, accesorys ect ect... it would be handy if possible on a builders website there was a detailed list of lets say the most requested or standerd hull types with a given price, the potential buyer could then add on whatever he/she wants included in the build. would make the "mind boggling pre-buying research" a hell of a lot easyer. the potential buyer could then contact you for any specifics or for confirming prices and anything els that needs more detail.

So basically giving the person the abillity to work things out for themselvs and saving endless replies to phonecalls, letters and e-mails. Let them work it out and if they are interested they can get in touch.

 

There is no such thing as a time waster, if someone is about to make one of the biggest purchases of thier lives of course they are going to ask loads of questions and shop around before they commit.

 

just my two cents

Hi There

I do agree with this proposal.

Maybe some one should produce a document that list all of the alternatives that might be required on ordering a boat.

It would be quite a document but with a series of tick boxs this one document could be sent to all prospective boat builder for a quote.

It would be much like a clerk of works would issue to all prospective suppliers.

Alex

[blackrose]

I have a lot of the why are you £10K more expensive than so and so conversations and when you explain the difference in specifications it still seems to go over the heads of many.

 

In the back of their minds they're probably wondering if the specs are really that different and also whether they could get someone in to install the extras or do it themselves cheaper. Even though I'd previously owned a narrowboat I severely under-estimated just how much money fitting out my widebeam would cost.

 

What you seem to be saying Gary, is that sales at the top end of the market are difficult. That's always going to be the way - Bentleys are never going to be as commonplace as Vauxhaull Astras. However, if the economy turns to crap as everyone's now predicting, you may well need an alternative sales strategy.

Edited January 24, 2008 by blackrose

[stickleback]

Yoda! Full recession??! Have we not been listening to OUR LEADER on Prime Ministers Questions - the economy is in great shape and thriving, thanks to his stewardship when chancellor! Or do we believe reality?!

[Malarky]

The rule of thumb I have when doing a complete fit out was to make sure that the finished product values at ten grand more than it costs, thus enableing the customer to sell if they have to go into debt to pay for those extras, and at least "get out", and of course pay the company. People can also change their mind at the last minuite, sell, and order another one to the spec. they want. Ok it takes time to sell, but this avoids them trying to queue jump the waiting list.

[greywolf]

stickleback.i agree sold shares before Christmas glad i did because i was getting increasingly worried about the situation

 

malarky, sound like a good idea.

[Gary Peacock]

Thanks for the responses.

 

It isn't really so much about orders these days in my first venture into the ditch crawling world we had to build about 15+ boats a year which at the time sounded clever lots of cash flow both in and out, lots of staff, lots of overheads, lots of big expensive flash adverts and lots of grief to go with it. But you needed to fill those slots to stay in business hence the 7 day working week! The thing becomes a monster as R&D, Athony M, Heron & Lees etc found out.

 

Now a days things are a bit different we can potential build at most 7 full fits a year. In reality if they are big boats this might fall to 4 only but the cost of those makes it viable. Unlike the pure "Traditional" ditch crawler builders we don't have a lot of competition so don't have to indulge in the yearly "feeding frenzy" at Crick because we tend to take orders for what the "flock" don't want to become involved in.

 

The true ability to build anything from an inspection launch to a working boat through to a washer josher is something that is becoming rarer, we still are "boatbuilders" and do 100% of the build in house. Mosts glossy adverts these days feature fitters or project management type set ups.

 

Because of this we can at least at the moment until El Gordo finally manages to sink the country well and truly be a bit fussy about what we do and don't want to do, usually that means anything that isn't profitable enough ie hulls, sail-aways etc where customers most certainly won't pay the extra for a quality hull.

 

But cutting away from the self publicity and going back to the original theme I don't think the majority of customers really do any homework they are easy to sucker at the likes of Crick etc

 

No doubt this year their will be the new batch of boatbuilders/fitters sat on boats they often didn't even build eagerly collecting the deposits to finance their new boat building pipe dream without a specification ever being mentioned but with a nice big banner on the top of the boat pronouncing this boat is only, followed by some random figure plucked from the air that they probably can't even build the boat for.

But all "Billy Boater" sees is cheap and no waiting list so gleefully hands over is deposit.

 

That's sounds a bit extreme but believe me it does happen so keep your eyes open if you are going to a boat show.

 

On the time wasters front generally their aren't many such creatures but more on that later! What boatbuilders do suffer a lot of especially in the higher end of the market are customers who aren't realistic about their budgets I spend a lot of time with people who end up realising they can't possibly afford what they want, we aren't in a position to reduce prices (By chopping the spec) beyond a realistic point so I send a lot of business in the direction of the New boat Co & Liverpool Boats where their budget might be more realistic.

 

I did have one spectacular time waster who without fail turned up about three times a month for about a year started with the budget is no problem approach requested 9 different quotations promised to put down deposits numerous times and and didn't and was at the same time doing this with various other builders to the point where he was getting well known for it. Anyway we got our heads together and needless to say he didn't get a boat built or waste anyones time any further. You can probably find him on Sundays now looking at caravans or browsing car showrooms!

 

On bow thrusters we don't include them in the spec and don't actively try over hard to sell them but leave it to the customers based on their true or perceived handling abilities. Bow thrusters are a nice money making extra if you use the "Stick anything in and it will suffice approach" but in reality if you spec them to do the job correctly they rapidly become expensive and not very profitable to fit along with the original topic again of why are you so much more expensive for a bow thruster?

 

I think we will have to rethink a few bits for a new spec later in the year maybe more along the lines of pick and choose theme.

 

I do still think customers should do a bit more homework considering how much money they are parting with. I have done countless quotes removing all the expensive goodies from the specification to reduce prices and the reality is that because we no longer have to purchase them it makes little difference on the viability of the build from a business point of view because the profits lost on the items removed is usually offset by the reduced build time. But I often puzzle what the customer intends to fill the gaps with? They must all have secret 99% discount cards for the local swindlers!

 

Now if you want to see high spec boats rumour says keep an eye out for new things from Poland!

Edited January 25, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[tomsk]

Hi Gary,

 

How do you know the vessels intended use? When you know it's use then it's time to quote for upgrading the spec; if neccessary. ie, the advertised price includes a 35hp engine , fine for the canals. But if the vessel is doing much river work, then suggest an upgrade to 45hp etc.

 

If you include a bow thruster in your price, leave it out. That's definitely an extra. I for one wouldn't want one. It's just another bit of kit to go wrong and only needed by peeps that can't handle their boat.

 

When you're advertising a general price I suggest you should keep it as a competative base price. Then discuss and suggest upgrades when you have enquiries and know the boats future useage.

 

Don't forget; No enquiries = No sales.

 

I wholeheartedly concur. Build in the price of a boat handling course instead and then we may increase the number of real boaters on the cut, with hairy chests and impressive muscles, instead of the effette, feminine whiney types who like there boating experience bubble wrapped, clinical and devoid of soul.

[blackrose]

I wholeheartedly concur. Build in the price of a boat handling course instead and then we may increase the number of real boaters on the cut, with hairy chests and impressive muscles, instead of the effette, feminine whiney types who like there boating experience bubble wrapped, clinical and devoid of soul.

 

Ooh I love a bit of bubble wrap...

Edited January 25, 2008 by blackrose

[ChrisPy]

Going back to the original point - Liverpool Boats have priced their boats in just the way proposed, for as long as I have been aware. Pick and mix from their menu and price list. That's what I did.

 

There was a job card pinned up in the workshop office that identified the length, the window locations and all the options and extras, for each boat under construction (four at a time in the widebeam shop).

 

It didn't quite work out, 'cos my 57ft boat was 61ft long when I checked it, so they had to start over. Does anybody know who took a discounted 61ft widebeam 'stock boat' in 2005?

[tobytimothy]

Going back to the original point - Liverpool Boats have priced their boats in just the way proposed, for as long as I have been aware. Pick and mix from their menu and price list. That's what I did.

 

There was a job card pinned up in the workshop office that identified the length, the window locations and all the options and extras, for each boat under construction (four at a time in the widebeam shop).

 

It didn't quite work out, 'cos my 57ft boat was 61ft long when I checked it, so they had to start over. Does anybody know who took a discounted 61ft widebeam 'stock boat' in 2005?

 

 

 

After you checked the boat length, I don't suppose you even thought about not mentioning it and seeing if they issued documents stating it was 57ft?

[Yoda]

Going back to the original point - Liverpool Boats have priced their boats in just the way proposed, for as long as I have been aware. Pick and mix from their menu and price list. That's what I did.

 

There was a job card pinned up in the workshop office that identified the length, the window locations and all the options and extras, for each boat under construction (four at a time in the widebeam shop).

 

It didn't quite work out, 'cos my 57ft boat was 61ft long when I checked it, so they had to start over. Does anybody know who took a discounted 61ft widebeam 'stock boat' in 2005?

 

That's because you spect it in metric

[dccruiser]

So far in my search for a builder i have found 3 different types, the first uses a standard design and cant quote if you want something different.....the second promises the earth but subsequent checking finds they are better at promising than delivering .... and the third, that hopefully i will place an order with in the next few weeks will be able to look at my detailed spec , price it accurately and deliver at the time stated!

 

I agree totally with Gary's sentiments regarding purchasers, i for instance am only looking to buy a sailaway... but there is no comparison between what one company calls a sailaway and another, so without a thorough spec there is no way to compare the prices quoted by the builders.....and i for one am not going to layout a vast amount of money without knowing exactly what it is buying and without seeing examples of the builders work without paint or blacking on,as i dont need my shell until the end of the year i would rather drive to see every reputable builder in the country than have my life's dream turn into a nightmare!

 

p.s. Gary , please dont put me on your list of time wasters just because i will be doing the rounds.... i promise not to call on anyone a second time unless it is to place an order!!!

 

Rick