CC Petition

[dccruiser]

After over 25 years of cruising on the canals i have now retired i finally get to buy my new hull next winter to join the ranks of the cc'ers in 18 months yey!

Thankfully i will only have a crew of one (the good lady) oh and the dog.... i just wonder if when the time comes there will be a levy worked on how many people are on the boat as we will have visiting crew throughout the year as i am disabled, ... more people = more use of water, more pump outs/ elsan disposal/ more people to wear out the towpath ect! maybe by then there will also be a levy on the dog / the amount of cycles carried and of course how many pins are used to moor up!

As, every year the supposedly boating for all approach is scuppered by the hiking up or introduction of new fees.

I have every sympathy with low income boaters that are fighting to work and raise families on the cut and think a rise in cc licences is unjustifiable as i also have no issue with w/beam boaters as i think they pay enough of a penalty in mooring fees for the choice of extra space. I personally am having a 70' hull built and although it means we wont be able to complete the full system in our veiw it is a small compromise for the extra space and we always have the option to hire or boat swap if we really feel the need!

 

Slightly off topic , i read with interest last night about moorings and licences being paid by the dwp ... if thats the case i will happily accept a licence , but would donate the use of any mooring to a deserving cause as we intend to cruise throughout the year .... before the scrounger comments arrive, although i consider it personal i will point out i am only disabled because i chose to serve this country and figure i am as entitled as anyone else to anything i may be given!

Rick

[Sir Nibble]

I have to say I did wonder why hire boat operators would be so concerned by CCers. I tend to suspect this petition has more to do with removing CMers (permanent moorers) and tatty boats from the visitor moorings around the honey pots on the system. When customers return at the end of the holiday the hire boat companys hoped for response to the how was it question is "wonderful we'll do it again next year" not complaints that they were unable to moor at the best places because of tatty old boats hoging the visitor moorings. However it's difficult to target them directly but they will almost certainly have declared themselves to be CCers. If CCers are forced to pay more I suspect the hope is many of these boats will disapear as the owners can no longer aford the costs.

 

I make no judgements but I did see the problem at Bradford on Avon this summer and a couple of families on hire boats further down the canal made the point that the hire boat company had recommended they stop there the first night but they could not moor.

 

There may be other reasons but I don't know what they might be.

 

Ken

Having read carefully through this thread it seems that I, as a marina berth holder am to blame. I have a tatty old boat and moor it in the only place available in order to comply with my licence conditions. Facilities? a tap, usually cut off. Why am I being scapegoated for this? This petition has been raised by the hire boat companies for the reasons Ken spotlights above, there is no need to find a scapegoat, THERE is the provocation for this petition.

Fortunately, petitions count for absolutely nothing, zilch, nada.

[fuzzyduck]

are we not talking about APCOs responces to the Licence consultation arrived at by a survey rather than a petition per se.

 

In which case there is a real reason to be worried about this as they must pay a fair old whack for licenses, and they're united, while the leisure boat owners can't even agree on what day of the week it is.

[fender]

marinas are a pain especially around the north Coventry and Trent and Mersey canals

 

Never mind trying to charge cc'ers extra and the rest of it, how about compensation/reduced licence fees for having to wait hours to get through T&M locks?

 

After all its BW who brought this situation on as per all situations they bring on with their incompetence and the APCO's boats also cause these traffic jams

Edited January 16, 2008 by fender

[KenK]

are we not talking about APCOs responces to the Licence consultation arrived at by a survey rather than a petition per se.

 

In which case there is a real reason to be worried about this as they must pay a fair old whack for licenses, and they're united, while the leisure boat owners can't even agree on what day of the week it is.

 

Agree totally. APCO are saying IMHO exactly what BW want to hear. I don't believe that anyone CCing should pay for a mooring or that widebeams should cost more than a narrowboat, I by the way have a narrowboat and a mooring.

 

What I would say is that if BW take this idea on board then it is far better to have sensible alternative proposals rather than just cry foul.

 

Ken

[Tomska]

Agreed, but the problem with a bureaucratic entity coming up with charges and regulations in order to single out a few people who they want to target is that it will hit all sorts of people in unintended ways.

 

As has been pointed out the difference between someone whose behaviour you don't like and that you do like is unlikely to be covered by any different licensing regime.

 

And you might find that such a blunt instrument hits you in its operation in some way you didn't expect.

 

As with most other areas of life there are already many instruments to deal with abuse, are you looking for some kind of automatic deterrent?

Do you really want BW to spend your money on enforcing another layer of complicated rules?

 

Spot on.

 

Some folk are fighting for survival and trying to pay for their boats, work hard and bring up their families. Its hard enough the way things are without extra pressure by well resourced wealthy folk who want to pull up the ladder behind them and keep the riff raff out, which is what were talking about isn't it?, price the peasants out, cos if the fees go up, lots of people cant afford to keep going.

 

Also spot on. I'm not on the BW system and I have a permanent mooring, so I don't have a horse in this race. From an objective perspective, I reckon it stinks. Sadly, I worry that the current bunch of utter wanchors in charge of BW will gleefully grasp this opportunity to stick the boot into cc-ers and make a bit more revenue while they're at it. They've got form...

[StoneHenge]

I agree with a lot of what you said tired old pirate.

 

I really don't understand what BW or anyone else would have a problem with genuine CC'ers. Bloomin heck, envy is a terrible thing.

 

Charging them for having the noodle, time, money and effort to actually have a life which does not involved being chained to one place. Why the hell should they? I envy them, but I would not chuck my rattle out and try and charge them extra. I'd love to do, hopefully one day I will if there haven't been such rules put on us all that we may as well be living in floating prisons.

 

Heck, whats the world coming to when whatever poor excuse for a body of people put together that petition or piece of carp, tries to dictate what we should or should not be allowed to do with our lives.

 

I moved from a house stuck in one place, so that I could enjoy the countryside and different places and have the comfort of having my home with me.

 

I found the same negativity with marina folk, most of whom (and this is just from my personal experience in ONE marina), that they barely ever moved unless they had a pump out loo or had to drag themselves out to get their hulls blacked. They were negative (let's say JEALOUS) of anyone else who had the audacity to actually go and use the canals, and frequently if you were one such person who actually did turn over their engine and move, you were picked on and bullied for spoiling their floating housing estate.

 

I am not saying it is like that is ALL marina's, but this one is a pretty good example of how small minded, petty and pathetic some can be. They would happily see all people who actually used thier boats driven off the canals so they could just look at empty water all day.

 

Get a life indeed!

[Sir Nibble]

I agree with a lot of what you said tired old pirate.

 

I really don't understand what BW or anyone else would have a problem with genuine CC'ers. Bloomin heck, envy is a terrible thing.

 

Charging them for having the noodle, time, money and effort to actually have a life which does not involved being chained to one place. Why the hell should they? I envy them, but I would not chuck my rattle out and try and charge them extra. I'd love to do, hopefully one day I will if there haven't been such rules put on us all that we may as well be living in floating prisons.

 

Heck, whats the world coming to when whatever poor excuse for a body of people put together that petition or piece of carp, tries to dictate what we should or should not be allowed to do with our lives.

 

I moved from a house stuck in one place, so that I could enjoy the countryside and different places and have the comfort of having my home with me.

 

I found the same negativity with marina folk, most of whom (and this is just from my personal experience in ONE marina), that they barely ever moved unless they had a pump out loo or had to drag themselves out to get their hulls blacked. They were negative (let's say JEALOUS) of anyone else who had the audacity to actually go and use the canals, and frequently if you were one such person who actually did turn over their engine and move, you were picked on and bullied for spoiling their floating housing estate.

 

I am not saying it is like that is ALL marina's, but this one is a pretty good example of how small minded, petty and pathetic some can be. They would happily see all people who actually used thier boats driven off the canals so they could just look at empty water all day.

 

Get a life indeed!

I really don't understand what BW or anyone else would have a problem with genuine CC'ers.

I don't thik anyone does, unfortunately the abusers have become so numerous and such a nuisance that some people vent their frustration by unfairly tarring all with the same brush.

I found the same negativity with marina folk, most of whom (and this is just from my personal experience in ONE marina), that they barely ever moved unless they had a pump out loo or had to drag themselves out to get their hulls blacked. They were negative (let's say JEALOUS) of anyone else who had the audacity to actually go and use the canals, and frequently if you were one such person who actually did turn over their engine and move, you were picked on and bullied for spoiling their floating housing estate.

A bit like that.

[KenK]

I don't thik anyone does, unfortunately the abusers have become so numerous and such a nuisance that some people vent their frustration by unfairly tarring all with the same brush.

 

A bit like that.

 

Neil makes a very interesting comment on the Boating Petition thread post #14

 

Ken

[Chris Pink]

I found the same negativity with marina folk, most of whom (and this is just from my personal experience in ONE marina), that they barely ever moved unless they had a pump out loo or had to drag themselves out to get their hulls blacked. They were negative (let's say JEALOUS) of anyone else who had the audacity to actually go and use the canals, and frequently if you were one such person who actually did turn over their engine and move, you were picked on and bullied for spoiling their floating housing estate.

 

 

It is so true, we have here a discussion that tries to put labels onto people and divide them into different groups. It will never work, people in all the different categories encompass the range from rabid fascists to laid back hippies.

 

if this forum was about the roads, you'd find the same divisions, 4x4, classic cars etc. But really it is a question of whether individuals operate within a co-operative framework or within the Thatcher bred system of envy and greed. I know idiots without moorings and nice people with moorings (listening Jerry?). We can't rule them all into submission, we have to find another way around this.

 

If we ask BW to sort our issues for us we are dis-empowering ourselves. All we can do is change ourselves and our interactions with our neighbours and fellow canal users.

 

If the marina/housing estate-y types want to reside full time in the marinas then great, less canal rage on Sunday afternoon.

 

I noticed a reference earlier in one of the 3 threads (!) on this subject to hire boat problems at Bradford-on-Avon. As someone who knows this area intimately, i can point out;

there are 3 hire bases within 1/2 days cruising of Bradford lock leading to queues (and canal rage) every weekend in busy season.

The visitor moorings at this time are full of almost all hire boats and long distance cruisers.

It is at the end of 9 mile pound, the town is one of few by this part the Kennet and Avon, a tourist attraction.

The liveaboards tend to avoid this area like the plague at high season.

And you don't have to go far from the lock before there is 2 miles of easy mooring.

In general the hire boats and the rest get on well because Bradford lock is their first, the tuition is said to be crap and they are generally grateful for advice and help through the lock (not the easiest lock either)

 

sorry, a bit off-topic, but it does illustrate how an example taken out of context leads to the impression that the problem is much bigger than it is.

[Sir Nibble]

It is so true, we have here a discussion that tries to put labels onto people and divide them into different groups. It will never work, people in all the different categories encompass the range from rabid fascists to laid back hippies.

 

if this forum was about the roads, you'd find the same divisions, 4x4, classic cars etc. But really it is a question of whether individuals operate within a co-operative framework or within the Thatcher bred system of envy and greed. I know idiots without moorings and nice people with moorings (listening Jerry?). We can't rule them all into submission, we have to find another way around this.

 

If we ask BW to sort our issues for us we are dis-empowering ourselves. All we can do is change ourselves and our interactions with our neighbours and fellow canal users.

 

If the marina/housing estate-y types want to reside full time in the marinas then great, less canal rage on Sunday afternoon.

 

I noticed a reference earlier in one of the 3 threads (!) on this subject to hire boat problems at Bradford-on-Avon. As someone who knows this area intimately, i can point out;

there are 3 hire bases within 1/2 days cruising of Bradford lock leading to queues (and canal rage) every weekend in busy season.

The visitor moorings at this time are full of almost all hire boats and long distance cruisers.

It is at the end of 9 mile pound, the town is one of few by this part the Kennet and Avon, a tourist attraction.

The liveaboards tend to avoid this area like the plague at high season.

And you don't have to go far from the lock before there is 2 miles of easy mooring.

In general the hire boats and the rest get on well because Bradford lock is their first, the tuition is said to be crap and they are generally grateful for advice and help through the lock (not the easiest lock either)

 

sorry, a bit off-topic, but it does illustrate how an example taken out of context leads to the impression that the problem is much bigger than it is.

I cannot understand why there appears to be this mooring holder/CC polarisation, but I am convinced that the wedge driven between us is the overstayers.

I know idiots without moorings and nice people with moorings (listening Jerry?).

What's that about? do you think I don't share that experience?

The liveaboards tend to avoid this area like the plague at high season

I shall refrain from naming the boats. Many, MANY of the overstayers are weekenders, I shall refrain from naming them too. I pass through BOA most weekends in high season and you are right, it is a snake pit, nonetheless the permanent moorers are still there, not usually on the visitor moorings but not too far from the water point or the supermarket either, (except on the stretch alongside the tithe barn which seems to support a developing country).

[Chris Pink]

What's that about? do you think I don't share that experience?

 

no sorry, i did think after you might misread it, i was holding you up as an example of a caring sharing marina mooring holder. Despite our discussion on the other thread i have much respect for your views.

[NB Alnwick]

Agree totally. APCO are saying IMHO exactly what BW want to hear. I don't believe that anyone CCing should pay for a mooring or that widebeams should cost more than a narrowboat, I by the way have a narrowboat and a mooring.

 

What I would say is that if BW take this idea on board then it is far better to have sensible alternative proposals rather than just cry foul.

 

Ken

 

We all were given the oportunity to voice our concerns when BW published their 'Public Consultation' document on 'Boat Licence Fees, April 2008 - March 2011'. I wonder how many of those who are so vociferous about boat licence fees on this forum actually responded to BW's request for feedback?

 

The closing date was 7th January 2008.

[Sir Nibble]

no sorry, i did think after you might misread it, i was holding you up as an example of a caring sharing marina mooring holder. Despite our discussion on the other thread i have much respect for your views.

I apologise Chris. In my defence, I have always voiced the view that the rules as are, are logical and many problems arise from lax enforcement allowing a culture of disregard to arise. I am used to these views casting me as some sort of elitist neo nazi and perhaps I have become a little over sensitive.

[carlt]

I apologise Chris. In my defence, I have always voiced the view that the rules as are, are logical and many problems arise from lax enforcement allowing a culture of disregard to arise. I am used to these views casting me as some sort of elitist neo nazi and perhaps I have become a little over sensitive.

"Paranoia will destroy ya", as a great philosopher once said. I'm not sure who sees you as an elitist noe-nazi, Snibs. I just think you're a little over sensitive.

[tired old pirate]

This gets really emotive dosnt it? We have been stopmping round the boat going AAAAARRRGH and I have found myself actually shaking with anger over some of this Going to have to stop looking so I can go and plan the overthrow of the state in calm and peace.....

[Chris Pink]

calm and peace.....

 

Calm and peace is the only thing that a state based on violence and war really fears, look at the critical mass at Liverpool Street Station.

[KenK]

We all were given the oportunity to voice our concerns when BW published their 'Public Consultation' document on 'Boat Licence Fees, April 2008 - March 2011'. I wonder how many of those who are so vociferous about boat licence fees on this forum actually responded to BW's request for feedback?

 

The closing date was 7th January 2008.

 

Nothing in that consultation document mentioned special licence fees for one or two sections of the boating community. The document was all about increasing fees generally and as these increases are already in the pipeline the document was just a paper excercise to make people feel better.

 

Boating is and will remain expensive. My mooring costs more per year than my council tax, the licence fee more than the road tax and insurance on both cars. The licence fee going up is a fact of life and as long as I can afford it I'll keep boating.

 

My complaint is simple it is unfair to increase the licence fee for someone who chooses to CC or for that matter has a wider boat and I'm on the K&A, so now and again I do have to wait for a lock, so what time for a chat.

 

I do think that boats dumped for months on end at the side of the canal should be dealt with, that's supposed to be part of BW's job. Many posts on similar threads support those who don't really CC but others are not so tolerant hence the ACPO petition.

 

Ken

[Sir Nibble]

I do think that boats dumped for months on end at the side of the canal should be dealt with, that's supposed to be part of BW's job. Many posts on similar threads support those who don't really CC but others are not so tolerant hence the ACPO petition.

 

Ken

Exactly. So if all our CC'ing chums suddenly find themselves hit with this unfair charge, who will they have to thank for it?

[Big John]

Nothing in that consultation document mentioned special licence fees for one or two sections of the boating community

That didn't stop the suggestion being made at a consultation meeting, and Robin Evans saying, we thought that was rejected, but if you want us to reconsider it we will.

 

I wonder what the Ombudsman will say if BW do impose moorings fees for continuous cruisers. Was it a properly carried out consultation?

[KenK]

That didn't stop the suggestion being made at a consultation meeting, and Robin Evans saying, we thought that was rejected, but if you want us to reconsider it we will.

 

I wonder what the Ombudsman will say if BW do impose moorings fees for continuous cruisers. Was it a properly carried out consultation?

 

That does not surprise me in the slightest. If BW can get someone else to raise the proposal and there is enough support they turn round and say, but that is what you wanted. Too late to complain then.

 

Ken

[Chris Pink]

I do think that boats dumped for months on end at the side of the canal should be dealt with, that's supposed to be part of BW's job.

 

 

Well I think you should rescue those boats, and take them somewhere safe and send the owners a salvage bill.

 

Section 8 of the 1968 act applies to abandoned boats, why is it not used for such craft?

[Sylver Lining]

I am very into this topic and following it as best I can. Am loosing the will to give a (swear word)

I think initially it almost reduced me to tears. (think it was partly to do with teething, screaming baby for 24hrs

I can't believe the wolves in sheeps clothing in this whole thing. So intent in getting their own way they are happy to destroy some peoples lives. And bleat on at the 'grown ups' until they get what they want, with as much foresite as a school child and group of bullies.

Sounds a bit drastic, but that is essentially what would happen if this extra payment was to go ahead.

Its like driving past a car crash. Its horrifying and scary and turns your stomach but you cant help slowing down to have a look. (I mean me in that bit. I don't want to look but can't help wanting to know what will happen to me)

I'm going to pretend that I don't think anything will come of it. Carry on paying my current fees. Carry on ccing, and pray that BW don't manage to get anything together for another few years.

There are some good points being made on both sides but i do feel slightly sick with worry.

edited for spelling

Edited January 16, 2008 by Sylver Lining

[Chris Pink]

There are some good points being made on both sides but i do feel slightly sick with worry.

 

 

If you're going to worry then take it slow, this discussion has been going on for at least 20 years

 

 

....and i'm still here!

[Nige G]

The points on the questionable objectivity of this survey hardly need making. Ridiculous.

 

There does seem to be a concerted effort by folk to put pressure on BW to take draconian measures against CC'ers at the mo. I had a long conversation with a mooring warden just before christmas who openly admitted that there was a agenda within BW to "encourage" everyone into marinas and make online mooring less appealing. She told me that this was driven by several factors, one being the amount of letters of complaint complaint coming in regarding boats moored online coming from marina based boaters (she used the phrase polishers and rivet counters). She told me that availability of moorings wasnt a problem as new marinas would be opening up all over the place in the future.

 

I am currently waiting for a permanent mooring to become available, and when I approached a brand new marina with very expensive moorings they would not even take an application from me without having a house address, they wern't interested in residential boaters at all (blisworth marina)

 

After living on the cut and cc'ing for a while I've decided I dont want a marina mooring anyway, there is an online marina I would like to be at but their waiting list is huge and any boats sold there remarkably seem to come straight up on the list, so no turnover anyway. BW lists are closed so effectively there are no permanent moorings available.

 

This winter I couldnt afford a winter mooring let alone a marina space even if there was one available. I turned down winter moorings and have had to deal with the very difficult but hugely rewarding task of working thru the winter with kids and moving to avoid overstay. Its doable but v hard.

 

Any suggestion that I should pay an extra fee for this priveledge is obviously made by people who havn't actually done it. Its hard and not everyone could do it. I have lived in a marina and I feel that many of the folk I met living there wouldnt last long on the cut with no security or facilities. I have showed numerous people how to use their inverters and basic equipment, some folk were so frightened of moving their boats over (100 yds)to get diesel that they had to be accompanied. They also exhibited some fairly extreme judgemental behavior and were so worried about security that marina gates had to be locked etc, many people would actually approach members of the public who walked in to look at boats to inform them that they were tresspassing! talking to folk like some of them did out where I moor would get you twatted. If you are cc'ing you depend on the community for security and have to work really hard to survive, certainly so hard that there isnt alot of time left to worry about what other people are doing or paying for or not paying for.

 

My point being that I dont think people realise how difficult it is and would not actually be able to survive outside marinas, theres no shorepower, no convenient pump out, no security cept us, no handy water, no carparking, no mailboxes, no launderettes, not that many places to moor. If you choose to pay for that stuff then you get that stuff, if you dont, you dont. Folk writing letters to BW should stop it or try a few seasons on the cut first to see if they'd be willing to pay extra for it.

 

Some folk are fighting for survival and trying to pay for their boats, work hard and bring up their families. Its hard enough the way things are without extra pressure by well resourced wealthy folk who want to pull up the ladder behind them and keep the riff raff out, which is what were talking about isn't it?, price the peasants out, cos if the fees go up, lots of people cant afford to keep going.

 

Extra charges shouldnt happen. Be nice if BW used the revenue generated by marinas to give free licences to those who CC as a mark of respect. Widebeams are too fat and should be parked on land in my opinion, given a garden path and refered to as flats.

 

 

I couldn't agree more