do gel and lead acid batterys mix?

[kennetboater]

Hi all, new to this forum and very impressed! puts canal-lists to shame! so my question is...

 

I have been given some gel sealed batterys but I am already using lead acid ones.

will it be ok if the two types are seperated into different battery banks and charged through a splitting diode from the same alternator? or will this cause problems or damage?

cheers

lee wells

WB EdwinDragon

[Kingken]

Hi all, new to this forum and very impressed! puts canal-lists to shame! so my question is...

 

Well said, I am trying to make this point on the canals list at the moment, but to no avail. (Glad a newbie thinks so)

 

 

I have been given some gel sealed batterys but I am already using lead acid ones.

will it be ok if the two types are seperated into different battery banks and charged through a splitting diode from the same alternator? or will this cause problems or damage?

cheers

lee wells

WB EdwinDragon

 

As long as they are kept separate there should be no problem.

[KenK]

Hi all, new to this forum and very impressed! puts canal-lists to shame! so my question is...

 

I have been given some gel sealed batterys but I am already using lead acid ones.

will it be ok if the two types are seperated into different battery banks and charged through a splitting diode from the same alternator? or will this cause problems or damage?

cheers

lee wells

WB EdwinDragon

 

It's not just keeping them seperate, the Gel batteries need a different max charge voltage, lower than the lead/acid ones. Do a search on the forum, batteries must be one of the most debated topics on here, or have a look here http://www.batteryfaq.org/

 

Ken

[carlt]

Presumably you can step down the voltage, to the gels, if they're on separate banks?

[chris w]

The only way to do it is to ensure the maximum charge voltage does not exceed 14.4v, over which the gels will be damaged. The disadvantage is that the wet lead acids should ideally get 14.8v so will not be charged (or desulphated) so effectively.

 

Chris

[kennetboater]

The only way to do it is to ensure the maximum charge voltage does not exceed 14.4v, over which the gels will be damaged. The disadvantage is that the wet lead acids should ideally get 14.8v so will not be charged (or desulphated) so effectively.

 

Chris

 

thanks for all the responses!

I am refitting an old thames widebeam barge and as the project continues I will be increasing the size of the domestic and fridge battery banks.I guess the simplest thing would be to just stick to one type of battery, gel or lead acid.

The 6x55amphr gel batteries given to me were taken from floor cleaning equipment. under a year old and tested as ok. so I can continue with either type with no loss of money.

 

which type have people found to be most effective performers? gel or lead acid?

cheers

lee

[chris w]

1. There is no electrical difference between them in terms of life or performance.

 

2. Gel batteries are called "maintenance-free" (ie: they don't need topping up) BUT this also means one has to be very careful in recharging them otherwise they will gas and will permanently lose capacity because they cannot be topped-up. If wet lead acid batteries were treated as gently as gel batteries must be, they too would be "maintenance-free"

 

3. Gel batteries will cost anything from x2 to x4 the cost of wet-lead acid batteries with NO increase in life or performance.

 

4. Wet lead acid batteries can take a lot of abuse and all they require is topping-up with water occasionally.

 

I have no financial or other interest in batteries but personally would always advocate wet lead-acids for boats. Sealed batteries are good if you're on a racing yacht with high keel angles where a wet battery might spill.

 

Chris

Edited January 2, 2008 by chris w

[bottle]

Hi Lee

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Batteries have been discussed many, many, many times have a search (top right).

 

I will try to summarise all batteries are good if they are treated correctly, charged to 100% not allowed to go below 50% charge.

 

The different types have different charging regimes as previously mentioned so, mixing is not a good idea.

 

My own thoughts and recommendation of my boat builder is, to go for 'wet' lead acid non sealed and treat them with TLC.

 

Edit: don't you just hate that, someone posts whilst you are typing.

Edited January 2, 2008 by bottle

[DHutch]

We've always used wet lead acids.

- However if nothing else, the gel's will be worth something if you want get rid of them.

 

 

Daniel

[Yoda]

I came across a company that makes batteries and I was wondering if they would make some to the correct spec for narrow boaters. If anyone has an interest, I will contact them and see what they can do.

[GUMPY]

I came across a company that makes batteries and I was wondering if they would make some to the correct spec for narrow boaters. If anyone has an interest, I will contact them and see what they can do.

 

Interesting.

There are very few that actually make them in the UK now.

I believe its down to two......

One is http://www.shieldbatteries.co.uk

Its like entering another world when you go there vats of acid, battery cases, and lead plates everywhere.

 

Besides which, what is the correct spec?

 

Julian

[steelaway]

I am always amazed at the cunfusion there is regarding different types of battery's.

I am utterly convinced that if you are going to charge battery's everday and keep them in a hot engine bay they will use water!

Therefor you must be able to replace the liquid that will be evaperated. I can use 4 ltr's of water during cruising through the summer in my 4 x 6V traction battery's. (and a little more in the start battery)

Unless the battery's are not checkable or if you are going to invert the boat I cannot under stand why you would use any thing else.

[kennetboater]

Thanks again for all the help and top tips.

I think that the only safe and simple way to have banks of both gel and acid batterys would be to have starter and domestic as lead acid and run the heating systems bolin pump from a gel bank which would be charged by its own solar panel.

 

is it possible to place a selector switch on the charge feed from the alternator so that before I turn on the engine I can decide to charge either the acid bank OR the gel bank. this would mean that they get charged seperatly but only one type at a time? the gel bank on the heating system should not need much charging.

 

or should I just give up and forget using the gels.

 

cheers all

lee

[chris w]

Thanks again for all the help and top tips.

I think that the only safe and simple way to have banks of both gel and acid batterys would be to have starter and domestic as lead acid and run the heating systems bolin pump from a gel bank which would be charged by its own solar panel.

 

is it possible to place a selector switch on the charge feed from the alternator so that before I turn on the engine I can decide to charge either the acid bank OR the gel bank. this would mean that they get charged seperatly but only one type at a time? the gel bank on the heating system should not need much charging.

 

or should I just give up and forget using the gels.

 

cheers all

lee

 

Yes you can buy such a switch which usually comes marked as OFF, 1, 2. (ie: OFF, bank 1, bank 2). Chandlers sell them.

 

However, DOUBLE CHECK the switch is not in the OFF position when you start your engine as otherwise the alternator output diodes will fry if the alternator has no load on it.

 

My own advice would be not to have a switch, but to go for all wet lead acid and also fit an alternator controller on the alternator to significantly reduce the charge time.

 

Chris

[bottle]

Hi Lee

 

I am in agreement with Chris (for what it's worth), the motto for boating is Keep It Simple (KIS), there is another 'S' but I don't think that applies in this case

 

By the time you carried out all the extra wiring/switching, possibility of damaging the alternator, is it worth it just to keep the gells.

[kennetboater]

Thanks Keith and Chris,

 

Right my minds made up! I will KIS(s) my boat! all lead acid across all 3 banks after reading all the post to my original question this makes most sense.

 

when we move across the river to our new permanent mooring then the gel batterys may come in usefull to power "plank lights" for our boats or I can sell them as suggested.

 

thanks for all the ideas and info!

 

happy boating

[smileypete]

I'd have a single combined bank for both engine AND domestics, then use the gels for a backup engine starting capability just in case.

 

As long as the gels get a charge to the required voltage every 6 months they will be fine.

 

Curious to know what the 3 banks will be for.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Edit: I've found solar lights to be good as plank marking lights, they are usually on sale at the end of summer.

Edited January 3, 2008 by smileypete

[chris w]

Leisure batteries have thicker plates than a pure starting battery. Using domestics to start the engine can produce plate buckling as the thicker plates don't like 200A going through them.

 

Chris

[kennetboater]

I live on a 42' narrowboat with lucy my partner and 20mnth son. since josh came along its felt very small, hence the refurb widebeam project.

 

my son is the reason for three battery banks! he has become facinated with... look daddy light on .. pump on... telly on oh dear engine on!

 

starter. domestic and separate fridge bank. so if we get flat domestic I can restart and won't have lost any food. I might also have the bolin pump with the fridge so the rads don't explode if the domestic batterys go flat., only one solar panel at the moment

 

I'm only an novice but have set myself the challenge of fitting my family into a kid/eco/river friendly boat! but we strarted as boaters so all is good!

I have learnt a lot as I've gone along with lots of advice from other boaters etc. its good to know there is help about cheers

[chris w]

Actually, splitting your domestics into two banks (domestic + fridge, if I have understood you correctly), actually gives you less total capacity.

 

Without going into the maths (unless you want me to), the total capacity of two batteries is not their arithmetic sum. For example, 2 x 135AH batteries wired in parallel have a total capacity that is 20% higher than 2 separate 135AH batteries used singly.

 

Thus it is always better to wire all your domestic batteries together in parallel since you will have more overall power to run the fridge etc. It is also the most cost-effective way of doing it too, in the sense that you are getting more overall capacity for no extra money.

 

Chris

Edited January 3, 2008 by chris w

[smileypete]

my son is the reason for three battery banks! he has become facinated with... look daddy light on .. pump on... telly on oh dear engine on!

 

starter. domestic and separate fridge bank. so if we get flat domestic I can restart and won't have lost any food. I might also have the bolin pump with the fridge so the rads don't explode if the domestic batterys go flat., only one solar panel at the moment

 

Fair enough, I'd use large leisure batteries or truck batteries all round.

 

Someone mentioned some £70 135Ah ones from Adverc which looked a good deal:

 

http://www.adverc.co.uk/products/batteries...3&Submit=Go

 

They're dual purpose so should be fine for engine starting:

 

http://www.manbatbatteries.co.uk/filestore/numax_marine.pdf

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Edit:

 

Something else I'd look into is using pairs of 6v deep cycle batteries, eg:

 

http://www.adverc.co.uk/products/batteries...8&offset=10

 

Bit more expensive but will give much more charge/discharge cycles.

Edited January 3, 2008 by smileypete

[kennetboater]

I can see the sense in not splitting the battery banks but think I'd rather have the fridge and bolin pump on a separate bank still. will look at the battery types suggested too, cheers.

 

its all very complicated huh! well if you make it so I suppose. lucy says no to plank lights so I may well have some 55aph used gell batterys on offer soon!