HDPE canal boat

[booke23]

6 hours ago, shaun15124 said:

When it’s all completed, I’ll definitely Will Promise  🙂

 

On a serious note, I want to sincerely thank everyone for your comments. I must admit, I was initially hesitant about sharing this project with others. Some people outright called me crazy for suggesting that this material could work. And, to be fair, I faced my share of skepticism in the early days.

But on this forum, the encouragement and constructive feedback have been truly humbling. It’s a testament that maybe—just maybe—we’re on the right path. Sure, there are still learning curves with certain aspects of the process, but the overwhelming response has been incredible. I’m genuinely proud of the team involved.

 

This has been years in the making—four years since our first prototype—and the truth is, we didn’t move forward sooner because we were simply too busy with the day-to-day operations. At the time, no one on the team had the bandwidth to fully focus on this project.

 

Personally, I’ve been with the company for three years, and my journey here wasn’t a straight line. I joined during a difficult time in my life, with no background in boatbuilding or Plastic industry. Honestly, I took the job out of necessity when a family member faced serious health challenges. But along the way, I saw an opportunity, and it became my personal mission—my obsession—to push this forward.

 

I want to stress that this isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution, and I understand it may not be for everyone. But I truly believe in what we’re doing. Even if just one person uses this boat on the canal system (yes, I know, it sounds a bit cheesy), I’d feel like I’ve accomplished something meaningful.

 

Our efforts haven’t gone unnoticed—we’ve won multiple awards, including Bespoke Fabricators of the Year, Plastic Manufacturer of the Year, and Plastic Fabrication Company of the Year for 2023/2024 and 2024/2025.

 

And yet, I’m still learning. I don’t claim to have it all figured out, but I’m committed to improving and getting it right. All I ask is for the opportunity to prove that this can work.

 

Thank you again for all your support—it means the world to me.

 

 

Whatever issues the HDPE boat may or may not have, I must say how refreshing your approach to the suggestions on this tread has been.

 

You have responded with openness and good humour, and if I was in the market to build a boat from scratch you are exactly  the kind of boat builder I would strive to find. 

[shaun15124]

Thank you so much for your kind words 🙂 

[truckcab79]

1 hour ago, booke23 said:

 

 

Whatever issues the HDPE boat may or may not have, I must say how refreshing your approach to the suggestions on this tread has been.

 

You have responded with openness and good humour, and if I was in the market to build a boat from scratch you are exactly  the kind of boat builder I would strive to find. 

Not entirely convinced there’s not a bit of AI ‘help’ with the answers .  Covering all the bases raised in each post, distinctive AI writing style  and regular and positive thanking for each input are sure signs. People just don’t respond in that way.
 

That and staying remarkably cheerful at 15 pages of people picking figurative holes in your new boat. 😂 

 

Welcome to our brave new world. 

[booke23]

15 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

Not entirely convinced there’s not a bit of AI ‘help’ with the answers .  Covering all the bases raised in each post, distinctive AI writing style  and regular and positive thanking for each input are sure signs. People just don’t respond in that way.
 

That and staying remarkably cheerful at 15 pages of people picking figurative holes in your new boat. 😂 

 

Welcome to our brave new world. 

 

You may be right. But he didn’t get the AI bot to tell us all to go forth and multiply, so I still commend him! 

[truckcab79]

4 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

You may be right. But he didn’t get the AI bot to tell us all to go forth and multiply, so I still commend him! 

That wouldn’t fall within the 4 Laws. Always a dead giveaway. AI is essentially ‘much nicer’ than the rest of us.

 

Nothing wrong with it. A clever way of harvesting information from potential markets.  

Edited December 12, 2024 by truckcab79

[magnetman]

How the internet changed the world. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, booke23 said:

You may be right. But he didn’t get the AI bot to tell us all to go forth and multiply, so I still commend him! 

 

I suppose that is one of the downsides  of Artificial Insemination - "males not required at point of use"

[booke23]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I suppose that is one of the downsides  of Artificial Insemination - "males not required at point of use"

 

I suggest you familiarise yourself with section 1, Paragraph 13 of the GCHQ guide to AI. 

 

 

What is AI? There is no universally accepted definition of AI. However, a distinction is often made between ‘General AI’ (machine intelligence with the agency, reasoning and adaptability of a human brain) and ‘Narrow AI’ (machine intelligence trained to perform well in a narrowly defined cognitive task, such as playing chess, driving a car or translating documents).

 

All existing AI can be characterised as Narrow AI. It is widely accepted that General AI – if it is indeed achievable – is many decades away. Narrow AI can be understood as ‘a set of advanced general-purpose digital technologies that enable machines to perform highly complex tasks effectively’.10 AI is usually defined in terms of the ability ‘to perform tasks that would usually require human intelligence’,11 and can be 6. Jo Cavan and Paul Killworth, ‘GCHQ Embraces AI, but not as a Black Box’, about:intel, October 2019, , accessed 8 April 2020. 7. Lionel Barber and Helen Warrell, ’MI5 Chief Sees Tech as Biggest Challenge and Opportunity’, Financial Times, 12 January 2020. 8. Wendy Hall and Jerome Pesenti, ‘Growing the Artificial Intelligence Industry in the UK’, 15 October 2017, , accessed 8 April 2020. 9.

 

 

The powers given to the UK Intelligence Community (UKIC) are subject to a specific oversight regime set out in intelligence and surveillance legislation, while the private sector’s use of data remains governed primarily by data protection frameworks. 10. Paul Martin, The Rules of Security: Staying Safe in a Risky World (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2019), p. 217. 11. Oxford Reference, ‘Artificial Intelligence’, , accessed 8 April 2020. 4

 

Artificial Intelligence and UK National Security understood as comprising six sub-disciplines: automated reasoning; natural language processing (NLP); knowledge representation; computer vision; robotics; and machine learning (ML).12 Recent progress in Narrow AI has been driven primarily by advances in the sub-field of ML. ML enables computer systems to learn and improve through experience, and is characterised by the use of statistical algorithms to find patterns, derive insights or make predictions. An algorithm can be defined as ‘a set of mathematical instructions or rules that, especially if given to a computer, will help to calculate an answer to a problem’.13 ML is a specific category of algorithm that is able to improve its performance at a certain task after being exposed to new data.

 

There are three main types of learning: supervised; unsupervised; and reinforcement learning.

 

• In supervised learning, the agent ‘observes some example input–output pairs and learns a function that maps from input to output’.14 For example, for object classification, training data could include many photographs of different types of fruit, and labels defining which fruit is depicted in each photo. The trained model is considered to ‘generalise’ well if it is able to correctly identify the type of fruit when presented with new, unfamiliar photos.

 

• In unsupervised learning, ‘the agent learns patterns in the input even though no explicit feedback is supplied’.15 For example, for image recognition, training data could include thousands of individual photographs of five types of animal but no labels identifying the animals. The model is considered to perform well if it is able to correctly divide the photographs into five piles, each containing the photos of one type of animal.

 

• Reinforcement learning is a goal-oriented form of learning, where the agent improves at a task over time based on exposure to positive and negative feedback. For personalised recommender systems, a human listener may be recommended music based on their previous listening habits. The user provides feedback indicating whether they like the computer-recommended track. This feedback helps the algorithm to learn the user’s listening preferences, meaning that the recommendations become more accurate over time.

 

• Semi-supervised learning is a fourth category of ML, involving datasets where some input–output pairs are labelled but a large proportion are unlabelled. Returning to the fruit classification example, the model can be pre-trained on the entire training set (using unsupervised methods), before it is fine-tuned using the labelled subset.16 12. Stuart Russell and Peter Norvig, Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach, 3rd Edition (Upper Saddle River, NJ: Pearson Education Limited, 2016). 13. Cambridge Dictionary, ‘Algorithm’, , accessed 7 April 2020. 14. Russell and Norvig, Artificial Intelligence, pp. 706–08. 15. Ibid. 16. See Ibid. for all four definitions. Babuta, Oswald and Janjeva 5 The use of ML has grown considerably in recent years, driven by an exponential growth in computing power coupled with an increased availability of large datasets. In healthcare, ML-based image recognition is used for complex tasks, such as predicting the risk of autism in babies or detecting skin cancer.17 Local councils are deploying ML algorithms to assist social workers’ case prioritisation and identify families most in need of government support.18 In policing, ML algorithms are used to forecast demand in control centres, predict re-offending and prioritise crimes according to their ‘solvability’.19 With the growth of ‘smart cities’, ML algorithms are increasingly being used to streamline tasks, such as waste removal, traffic management and sewerage systems.20 These trends are likely to continue in the coming years, with the UK government’s Office for AI estimating that AI could add £232 billion to the UK’s economy by 2030.21 It is important to note, however, that most AI advancements have been made either in the private sector or academia.22 The UK government is yet to take full advantage of these opportunities. As summarised by the Committee on Standards in Public Life, ‘despite generating much interest and commentary, our evidence shows that the adoption of AI in the UK public sector remains limited. Most examples the Committee saw of AI in the public sector were still under development or at a proof-of-concept stage’.23 In the coming years, taking full advantage of the opportunities presented by these technologies will be a high priority for the UK government.24

 

 

 

 

 

 

Btw I'm joking....couldn't resist a bit of cut and paste!

 

Edited December 12, 2024 by booke23

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I suppose that is one of the downsides  of Artificial Insemination - "males not required at point of use"

Standing joke on the farm. There is a nail up there at the end of the pigsty for you to hang your trousers on.

[shaun15124]

15 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

Not entirely convinced there’s not a bit of AI ‘help’ with the answers .  Covering all the bases raised in each post, distinctive AI writing style  and regular and positive thanking for each input are sure signs. People just don’t respond in that way.
 

That and staying remarkably cheerful at 15 pages of people picking figurative holes in your new boat. 😂 

 

Welcome to our brave new world. 

Thank you sooooo much for the comment 🙂 

 

My previous role was 10years as a Sales Manager in a furniture retail company, which I left due to a family member's ill health.

 

Which quite frankly and rudely ( yes i can be rude see :-))  i will leave at that you can understand.,,,

 

so I have worked with all kinds of people. I had months of constant people shouting at me at while there was a certain boat stuck in canal (ironically).

 

After dealing with so many personalities and situations, It is just part of who I am, and I find it helps keep the energy positive and the conversation flowing smoothly 

 

Regards to finding fifteen pages of people poking holes in the new boat, I can see your point. However, as I have tried to say before, I am not trying to change the wheel, and Iv openly said we are new to this. People on here have many years of collaborative boat knowledge; it is about finding the right balance.

 

As for the polished responses, Im trying to be very clear on all answers  And, even with all the critique, try to keep things positive as i dont think there has been a point where to tell someone to 'go forth 🙂 ) yet anyways .

 

At the end of the day, it’s all about moving forward and making progress. 

[truckcab79]

19 minutes ago, shaun15124 said:

Thank you sooooo much for the comment 🙂 

 

My previous role was 10years as a Sales Manager in a furniture retail company, which I left due to a family member's ill health.

 

Which quite frankly and rudely ( yes i can be rude see :-))  i will leave at that you can understand.,,,

 

so I have worked with all kinds of people. I had months of constant people shouting at me at while there was a certain boat stuck in canal (ironically).

 

After dealing with so many personalities and situations, It is just part of who I am, and I find it helps keep the energy positive and the conversation flowing smoothly 

 

Regards to finding fifteen pages of people poking holes in the new boat, I can see your point. However, as I have tried to say before, I am not trying to change the wheel, and Iv openly said we are new to this. People on here have many years of collaborative boat knowledge; it is about finding the right balance.

 

As for the polished responses, Im trying to be very clear on all answers  And, even with all the critique, try to keep things positive as i dont think there has been a point where to tell someone to 'go forth 🙂 ) yet anyways .

 

At the end of the day, it’s all about moving forward and making progress. 

Exactly what AI would say. 😂

 

Good luck with your project either way. Good to see new ideas.  👍

 

 

[shaun15124]

2 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

Exactly what AI would say. 😂

 

Good luck with your project either way. Good to see new ideas.  👍

 

 

Go forth Now😂🤣🤣🤣🤣 

 

no can't do it......... Thank you For your comment i do appreciate it  🙂 😊😊

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2024 by shaun15124

[Asteroza]

21 hours ago, IanD said:

 

The only sensible solution if you want to go down this route would be a better-engineered version of the steerable pod drive in the video, with an open (or hubless ducted prop) and a skeg/bottom bearing -- either with a smaller better-streamlined motor in the pod (also needs a gearbox, more money...) or the motor vertically mounted inside the boat like a drive leg. But no pod drive supplier is ever going to develop such a thing because the cost would be high and the demand tiny compared to pod/leg drives intended for open-water use, which also often used ducted props for very good reasons which also don't apply to canal use... 😞 

 

I think the pod in the video seems rather large though, though supposedly that's for ease of maintenance as it was a prototype.

 

Here's some 15KW pods that look smaller

https://alphamarineequipment.com/product/aquamot-trend-outboard-engine-15kw-35-hp/

https://greenboatsolutions.com/shop/motor/outboard/aquamot-a150e

https://shopetechdrives.com/shop/E-Tech-15-POD-Outboard-15kW-72V-p560682575

 

The Rim Drive Technologies hubless ones do come in both fixed style like the ePod or as a regular outboard.

 

A typical rudder skeg with half cup bottom bearing, or just needing to lift an inch out of a bottom cup before rotating up, would allow an outboard installation with an pod having a fin below the pod with a bottom nub to interface with a skeg with protection and bottom support for thrust perhaps? For a hubless ring, just having a round nub at the bottom of the ring to interface with the skeg bearing cup should manage...

 

Won't do anything for cill attacks (unless you had a recessed notch in the stern to place the vertical rod of the outboard farther forward), but you would be facing similar protection issues with existing rudders right?

[magnetman]

You can stop the cill getting anywhere near the propeller and reduce the buoyancy thereby reducing need for ballast by having a rectangular well integrated into the design. The deck section behind this well Is curved above the waterline so there is no obstruction to water flow. 

This means the motor is protected from impact from astern and can never catch on a cill..

 

Think of it like an extra big weed hatch. Another obvious advantage of an outboard style is being able to tilt it to deal with propeller issues. 

 

And if there is some sort of failure you just put another one on rather than have downtime. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The E Tech mentioned in the post above 

 

 

 

The clamp does seem a bit mickey mouse and would need to be bolted to the transom properly. Yes full power sideways is going to be a problem. Maybe there should be some sort of limit to the amount of power one can use with helm over. People often apply far too much power and drive canal Boats in a very unrelaxed way but I suppose to be fair it would be very hard to alter this behaviour. 

 

 

 

 

 

A good thing with E Tech is one can put standard propellers on so it would be easy to get the right one by experimenting. 

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Asteroza said:

 

I think the pod in the video seems rather large though, though supposedly that's for ease of maintenance as it was a prototype.

 

Here's some 15KW pods that look smaller

https://alphamarineequipment.com/product/aquamot-trend-outboard-engine-15kw-35-hp/

https://greenboatsolutions.com/shop/motor/outboard/aquamot-a150e

https://shopetechdrives.com/shop/E-Tech-15-POD-Outboard-15kW-72V-p560682575

 

The Rim Drive Technologies hubless ones do come in both fixed style like the ePod or as a regular outboard.

 

A typical rudder skeg with half cup bottom bearing, or just needing to lift an inch out of a bottom cup before rotating up, would allow an outboard installation with an pod having a fin below the pod with a bottom nub to interface with a skeg with protection and bottom support for thrust perhaps? For a hubless ring, just having a round nub at the bottom of the ring to interface with the skeg bearing cup should manage...

 

Won't do anything for cill attacks (unless you had a recessed notch in the stern to place the vertical rod of the outboard farther forward), but you would be facing similar protection issues with existing rudders right?

 

The pod in the video is large because a direct-drive electric motor is big (high torque, low speed) -- the one in my boat is even bigger than this and weights about 50kg.

 

The commercial ones with a hub motor (and open prop) use a small high-speed motor and gearbox to reduce the size, but this puts the cost through the roof. The rim drive ones don't need the gearbox but now have to seal the motor while allowing drive to the prop, hubless will make it much less prone to fouling. Both types -- if also steerable -- still have the damage problem unless they're protected by a skeg or hull (see below).

 

As I said, there's no doubt that a pod drive suitable for canal use (robust and with a skeg/bottom bearing) *could* be made, but it would be even more expensive than the standard marine ones (small volume, high development cost) and almost nobody would want to buy it as a result (boat completely depends on it, nobody would buy it used) -- so it's not going to happen.

 

Rudders can (and do) get damaged by cilling, but they're just a steel plate than can be either bent straight again or even replaced quite cheaply.

 

If you sit a 20t narrowboat down on one of these pod drives -- or reverse the boat into a cill or other underwater obstruction, or maybe even ground it on something solid on the canal bed -- it's likely to cause major damage to the drive and/or the bearing/hull fitting, they're simply not designed to take this stress. That's likely to mean a bill of many thousands of pounds for repair/replacement, given the purchase price and the fact that even a replacement ePOD propeller costs about £2000.

 

The only solution is to hide them away inside the hull (or between pontoons, whatever) which is what is being proposed -- but this will lead to huge access problems if something does get round the prop, including horrible stuff like barbed wire, fishing nets and so on. Putting it behind a grille sounds great but simply isn't going to work on canals full of leaves and weeds.

Edited December 13, 2024 by IanD

[magnetman]

31 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

 

The commercial ones with a hub motor (and open prop) use a small high-speed motor and gearbox to reduce the size, 

Are you sure about that? 

 

Torqeedo originally did exactly that (RC plane motor and planetary gears)  but I don't think the larger pods do. I am pretty sure they are direct drive. 

 

 

The reason Torqeedo did that was not to reduce size. It was to get an electric outboard which would put a small inflatable dinghy on the plane. 

 

Torqeedo are direct drive these days. 

 

 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Are you sure about that? 

 

Torqeedo originally did exactly that (RC plane motor and planetary gears)  but I don't think the larger pods do. I am pretty sure they are direct drive. 

 

 

The really large pods -- like are used on ships -- use direct drive. The ones under discussion were the small boat ones which (mostly) don't, at least if you want a relatively low-speed prop like on a narrowboat not a high-speed egg-whisk. See all the discussions about prop size and rpm... 😉 

 

The Mothership and Finesse motors which are seen as "best-in-class" direct drive for narrowboats are far too big to get into a sensible-sized pod -- for example...

 

https://www.engiro.com/fileadmin/pdfs/Datenblaetter_engiro/205W/ENGIRO_Datasheet_205W_12013_ABC_V010_02.pdf

Edited December 13, 2024 by IanD

[magnetman]

Can you point me to a 10kW pod motor which is not direct drive

 

 

Good luck finding one. 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Can you point me to a 10kW pod motor which is not direct drive

 

Good luck finding one. 

 

I'm going to turn that round -- you find one which *is* small and direct drive and doesn't have a small noisy egg-whisk prop... 😉 

 

Those annoying old laws of physics suggest you won't... 😉 

Edited December 13, 2024 by IanD

[magnetman]

What about the E Tech 15kW pod motor referred to earlier? 

 

Do.you think there is a gearbox in there? 

 

Maybe they need one. 

 

 

 

 

I will ask again. 

 

Can you find a pod motor with a geared drive which would push along. narrow Boat? You did suggest earlier that such a thing exists. Who makes it? 

 

 

 

 

Taking the Etech as an example

Voltage 48 kW 10.9 RPM 1470

10 POD

48

10,9

1470

Air

 

 

these have a 30mm standard taper shaft so normal props can be used. 

 

I think it is 3 or 4kW to push a narrow Boat along so it seems to me this might work with the correct size propeller. 

 

I know you chose something else and that is your prerogative and an entirely faultless choice but these things might be ok specially for a custom made plastic Boat. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2024 by magnetman

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

What about the E Tech 15kW pod motor referred to earlier? 

 

Do.you think there is a gearbox in there? 

 

Maybe they need one. 

 

I will ask again. 

 

Can you find a pod motor with a geared drive which would push along. narrow Boat? You did suggest earlier that such a thing exists. Who makes it? 

 

 

No I didn't suggest that, I said that small pod drives were either geared or too high-speed for narrowboats -- with direct-drive ones (like the DIY one in the video) the motor is simply too big.

 

That 15kW ePOD drive spins the prop at 2250rpm -- if you think that'll be quiet pushing a narrowboat along, I have a bridge you might want to buy... 😉 

 

Edited December 13, 2024 by IanD

[magnetman]

The 10 is better. 

Also I think it only takes about 3 or 4kW (you will be able to confirm) so its not going to be running at full speed much. 

 

[IanD]

Just now, magnetman said:

The 10 is better. 

It's still a horribly small noisy prop... 😞

15 POD -- 11.5" x 5.8" at 2240rpm

10 POD -- 13.6" x 7.9" at 1470rpm

 

For comparison:

 

Engiro -- 17.2" x 11.4" at 1080rpm

[magnetman]

So despite the standard shaft cone you can't put a different prop on the E Tech? 

[IanD]

30 minutes ago, magnetman said:

So despite the standard shaft cone you can't put a different prop on the E Tech? 

Not unless you want to run at much lower rpm and maximum power output -- the problem is that to swing a decent size prop you need high torque, and small direct drive motors don't have it.

 

And while overpropping might work fine on a diesel boat which has lots of power to spare so can afford to sacrifice some, it's not a good idea on an electric drive which has much lower power.

 

Sorry but all this is basic engineering stuff, you can't make it go away just because you don't like it... 😉 

 

Let's take the 10 POD for example, because it looks as if this one is torque-limited -- so power drops with rpm:

 

10.9kW 1470rpm 13.6" x 7.9"

9.3kW 1250rpm 14.5" x 8.9"

7.4kW 1000rpm 15.9" x 10.4"

 

So yes you can put a bigger prop on it to get lower rpm and noise, but only by sacrificing a lot of the (already small) power output -- and I'm fairly sure 10hp maximum output isn't going to be what most sensible narrowboaters are looking for... 😉 

Edited December 13, 2024 by IanD