Victron inverter/ batteries/ solar recommendations

[Silent Flight]

Happy Easter boaties, have read a few posts but haven’t seen anything specific to this.

 

So helping a friend planning a new install. He is refitting inverter and batteries.
 

Currently a Victron 12/3000/120 multi and 5 wet lead leisure batteries 110ah. Hoping he can up the potential power and storage without changing loads and hopefully hook up a solar panel at the same time. 

 

So advice and any links for the following would be great!

Ideally the inverter will be another Victron that is compatible with 5 AGM style batteries. 
 

With capability to run a solar panel (415w) without buying another unit. 

 

And is accessible by phone(Cerbo, GX?)

 

He will be using the standard 12/24v as much as possible for fridge etc. But still needs 230v for things like TV, Sound bar, sound system, Gaming consoles, Hifi. 
 

Usage of power would be short weekend trips and a couple of bigger journeys, but mainly on shore power in a marina.

 

He is aware of overload and discharging batteries. 
 

Doesn’t want to go lithium and doesn’t want to change all the wiring etc, in an ideal world!

Thanks!

 

 

[robtheplod]

can i ask why ditch the good victron invertor/charger.. is it faulty?

[PeterF]

If the inverter works OK and he wants to add solar then he just needs to get a Victron Smart MPPT solar controller which will connect to a phone via Bluetooth using the Victron Connect app. He could add a Bluetooth dongle on the inverter for basic monitoring on the inverter. Does he have a shunt and battery monitor to get a better idea of the state of the batteries. The Cerbo is a nice thing to have, I have one connecting my Victron gear together but not 100% necessary.

[Silent Flight]

40 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

can i ask why ditch the good victron invertor/charger.. is it faulty?

Yes it’s faulty and batteries, but knew that when planning the refit. Wants a new setup better than before kinda thing. 

 

19 minutes ago, PeterF said:

If the inverter works OK and he wants to add solar then he just needs to get a Victron Smart MPPT solar controller which will connect to a phone via Bluetooth using the Victron Connect app. He could add a Bluetooth dongle on the inverter for basic monitoring on the inverter. Does he have a shunt and battery monitor to get a better idea of the state of the batteries. The Cerbo is a nice thing to have, I have one connecting my Victron gear together but not 100% necessary.

Has Victron digital multi control but I’m unsure if can make it work to monitor from phone.
 

Don’t think has shunt and battery monitor.

 

The Cerbo being nice to have, is basically ticking boxes. After a setup that is capable of giving lots of power for all the mod cons and easy to monitor to look after it.

Might help anyone willing to give some advice, can I clarify that the knackered inverter would okay to switch to a much more powerful unit without changing a lot of cables throughout the boat? 
 

Also is Victron the best way to go?

[PeterF]

Putting a larger inverter in will probably need the DC cables increasing in size if you stayed at 12V, but in my view, the 3000 units is the max you should run at 12V, if you go to the 5000 unit then I would recommend 24V. If the boat is 12V now, then going 24V is going to probably need a dual voltage system plus some method of charging at 24V. The AC system will also need upgrading to handle higher current, new breakers, possibly new circuits.

 

Regarding kit, I used to have an old boat with a mix of cheaper inverter, battery charger and solar control, it all worked OK. I had a new boat built a few years ago, all Victron, all works together seamlessly via the Cerbo GX with good monitoring and I have not regretted the extra expense of the Victron gear.

[Tony Brooks]

46 minutes ago, Silent Flight said:

After a setup that is capable of giving lots of power for all the mod cons and easy to monitor to look after it.

 

Perhaps you need to look at how and when the batteries will be charged and if they can put back in about 150% of what was taken out since last charged. Solar is very good, but a 40 amp panel will not be much help in charging 5 x 110Ah batteries, supplying lots of power.

 

More lead acid batteries of any type are killed by persistent under charging and over discharging than anything else. Some boaters have been known to destroy a bank within a very few weeks. Study the battery primer pinned in the maintenance Seaton.

 

The inverter cable size is decided upon cable length and the maximum current flow, so a higher output inverter is very likely to require heavier cables.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 hours ago, Silent Flight said:

Currently a Victron 12/3000/120 multi and 5 wet lead leisure batteries 110ah. Hoping he can up the potential power and storage without changing loads and hopefully hook up a solar panel at the same time. 

 

If you intend to increase the inverter size then you will need to upgrade the battery bank size, and (probably) how you recharge the batteries.

 

The way to ensue the best FLA battery life vs cost is to not deplete them below 50% state of charge, (ie you have about  250 Ah to 'play with') and then recharge them fully as soon as possible - immediately if possible.

If you leave them partly discharged then they begin to lose capacity - even after just a few days.

 

Replacing that 250Ah with (say) a 70Amp alternator will require about 10 hours of engine running time. Obviousls Solar will assist but you will need several panels (size ??) and some gppd weather. Solar produces very little between October and March, and virtually nothing December, January and February

 

A 3000w inverter if being fully used will  be drawing about 300Ah, so you will take the batteries below the recommended "50% State if charge" in under one hours usage.

A 5000w inverter, will not only require heavier wiring, but it will take the batteries below the recommended "50% State if charge" in about 30 minutes usage.

 

If you are drawing these levels of current you will need to increase your battery bank size to (maybe) 8 or 10 x 110Ah batteries, or, get bigger batteries (I have 6x 210Ah batteries).

[blackrose]

15 hours ago, Silent Flight said:

Yes it’s faulty and batteries, but knew that when planning the refit. 

 

What's wrong with it? If the batteries are knackered how do you know that the inverter side of the combi (charger/inverter) is faulty?

 

16 hours ago, Silent Flight said:

15 hours ago, Silent Flight said:

...can I clarify that the knackered inverter would okay to switch to a much more powerful unit 

 

 

It would be unusual to have a bigger inverter than 3000w on a canal boat. Mine is only 2000w and I live aboard. What mains appliance is your friend trying to run that requires more than 3kW? Having a smaller output inverter just means you have to juggle and can't run the microwave while you're hoovering or running the washing machine for example - but hey it's a boat not a house. 

 

Also as others have said, large loads on battery banks (combined with no battery monitor) tends to lead to knackered batteries.

Edited April 1 by blackrose

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

What's wrong with it? If the batteries are knackered how do you know that the combi (charger/inverter) is faulty?

 

 

It would be unusual to have a bigger inverter than 3000w on a canal boat. Mine is only 2000w and I live aboard. What mains appliance is your friend trying to run that requires more than 3kW? Having a smaller output inverter just means you have to juggle and can't run the microwave while you're hoovering or running the washing machine for example - but hey it's a boat not a house. 

 

Also as others have said, large loads on battery banks (combined with no battery monitor) tends to lead to knackered batteries.

 

15 hours ago, Silent Flight said:

He will be using the standard 12/24v as much as possible for fridge etc. But still needs 230v for things like TV, Sound bar, sound system, Gaming consoles, Hifi. 

None of the 230V items there are huge power consumers. They could easily be run off a smaller inverter than is currently installed. 1000 to 2000W will have plenty of headroom. If this is what's planned to be run, then going over 3kW of the current inverter isn't needed. Why does the person with the boat want to increase the maximum mains power available? A microwave, toaster, mains hoover, automatic washing machine or other heavy power consumer aren't mentioned. Is this because they aren't going to be there, or have they been forgotten?

[Silent Flight]

https://www.bmstechnologies.co.uk/product/victron-energy-easysolar-ii-gx-24-3000-70-32-cep242307010/
 

Basically after something like this, and set it up to use AGM battery’s which can handle more discharge.
 

Only thing is this unit is 24/3000 where it was 12/3000 previously. Would that mean changing cables and a load of products? Isn’t a lot of products 12/24v anyways?

15 hours ago, PeterF said:

If the boat is 12V now, then going 24V is going to probably need a dual voltage system plus some method of charging at 24V. The AC system will also need upgrading to handle higher current, new breakers, possibly new circuits.

Presumably it all is 12v, as that was a 12v inverter/charger there before. He doesn’t want to have to add loads of extra stuff. Ideally pull out the old unit, and get an electrician to install a new smarter unit capable of monitoring battery’s to look after them. That also can hook up a panel or two 

15 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

The inverter cable size is decided upon cable length and the maximum current flow, so a higher output inverter is very likely to require heavier cables.

Okay so staying at 3000, doesn’t want to change lots of cables 

11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you are drawing these levels of current you will need to increase your battery bank size to (maybe) 8 or 10 x 110Ah batteries, or, get bigger batteries (I have 6x 210Ah batteries).

Yeah he was going to increase the battery size, and wanted to use the AGM glass mat style 

4 hours ago, blackrose said:

What's wrong with it? If the batteries are knackered how do you know that the inverter side of the combi (charger/inverter) is faulty?

He has been told the full details when getting the boat and during the survey etc. I’m not sure just took his word for it they are getting removed and need replacing 

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Silent Flight said:

Yeah he was going to increase the battery size, and wanted to use the AGM glass mat style 

 

 

Which are still lead acid batteries as the basic technology is the same basic charging / discharging rules still apply.

If you discharge a bit deeper - then it just means it takes longer to recharge each day. 

Solar is fine for 6+ months of the year, but will need suplementing with engine running early and late season and will be of virtually no use for 3 months of the year (or when it is raining and cloudy) so can (depending on your daily usage) require many hours of engine running each day.

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, Silent Flight said:

Only thing is this unit is 24/3000 where it was 12/3000 previously. Would that mean changing cables and a load of products? Isn’t a lot of products 12/24v anyways?

 

No new cables, but going to 24 volts will need changing a lot of stuff. When running at 24 volts for some things, you also need a voltage dropper (car radio). For 24 volts you need new bulbs, domestic equipment, the domestic alternator and if a single alternator boat new instruments and starter motor. Changing from 12 to 24 volts means the wiring can stay the same because for a given task 24 volts draw half the current (amps).

 

Edited to add that the battery wiring will need altering because you usually put 2 x 12V batteries in series to get 24V and then more pairs in parallel to get the required capacity.

21 minutes ago, Silent Flight said:

Yeah he was going to increase the battery size, and wanted to use the AGM glass mat style 

 

But so far he still seems to be ignoring the need to ensure that he can recharge the batteries fully and frequently.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 1 by Tony Brooks

[Silent Flight]

18 hours ago, Silent Flight said:

Usage of power would be short weekend trips and a couple of bigger journeys, but mainly on shore power in a marina.

From the original post, pretty sure his intended style of boating would make sure the battery’s would be discharged/recharged fine

16 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

For 24 volts you need new bulbs, domestic equipment, the domestic alternator and if a single alternator boat new instruments and starter motor

I see yeah that would be enough to put him off. 
 

The Victron unit I posted seemed spot on but doesn’t come in a 12/3000 option. Does come in a 12/1600 but he won’t want to be going down in power size inverter. And he won’t want to change loads of other things to go 24V! Shame as thought I’d found the answer got him

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Which are still lead acid batteries as the basic technology is the same basic charging / discharging rules still apply.

This is true, he didn’t want to go lithium still too expensive. There is the gel option also? He will be charging/discharging to look after correctly and wanted the smart option to make sure he is doing this right 

3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

A microwave, toaster, mains hoover, automatic washing machine or other heavy power consumer aren't mentioned. Is this because they aren't going to be there, or have they been forgotten?

Forgotten, let’s say he will be using some of these things aswell. He basically wants power on demand but is aware of discharge and overload etc 

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Silent Flight said:

He basically wants power on demand but is aware of discharge and overload etc 

 

Please take this as it is meant.

 

It is all well and good being 'aware' but the boat needs to be planned, built and wired correctly to suit the 'worse case' or meaaures included so that you cannot cause damage.

 

The ideal way would be to incorporate a 'proper' boat diesel generator (not a portable petrol generator) but that would have little change from £10,000.

 

Running a 'big' (main) engine for many hours a dau is not only expensive (wear and tear and fuel consumption) but antsocila if on moorings with any other boats around.

 

A 'poorer' option is a portable petrol generator (something like a Honda E2000), which is much quieter and will use less fuel - BUT - should only be run on the bankside downwind of the boat. It should not be run on the boat itself. You then have problems with storing the generator, which if it has fue in the tank must go into a secure locker (the same as your gas locker) and the storage of cans of petrol is the same.

 

Before considering any changes to the electrical system, and the number and type of appliance you plan to use, you should carry out an electrical audit AND BEFORE making any changes decide on how you are going to be able to charge your batteries to meet that demand.

 

Any fool can take electicity out of a battery but it takes skill, knowledge and planning to put it back in ready for the next day,

[Silent Flight]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Any fool can take electicity out of a battery but it takes skill, knowledge and planning to put it back in ready for the next day,

I agree, he will be on shore power for 5 days a week and hopefully cruising for the weekends in the better months of the year. 
 

Saying power on demand was probably bit OTT from me, but he does want to upgrade it and to be to smart. Doesn’t want generators but can see that would give power on demand 

 

[Tony Brooks]

24 minutes ago, Silent Flight said:

He will be charging/discharging to look after correctly and wanted the smart option to make sure he is doing this right 

 

Depends upon what he means by "smart", if he means he likes gizmos and wants to look at things on a mobile phone, then I am out of this conversation. If he means he just wants to effectively monitor his batteries, then all he needs is a decent voltmeter and ammeter, plus a little knowledge and brain power.

 

Although nowadays things are a bit better with certain manufacturers (not sure Victron is one of them) many battery monitors have been known to lie, especially those on solar controllers, and have been instrumental in destroying batteries on boats where the manual was not read, understood and the monitor reset and calibrated regularly. This is to do with how lead acid batteries behave and people believing a fancy display. I don't see how a phone display makes it any more accurate. Just tell him to be very wary and not to be taken in by technology and fancy displays.

 

If he wants to know how to monitor his batteries using a voltmeter and ammeter, he only has to ask. Knowledge and understanding beat fancy displays every time because the person with the knowledge can take far more things into account when inferring the battery needs.

[Silent Flight]

@Tony BrooksHe wants the displays on his phone, as he has mobility problems so wouldn’t be able to go down into the battery bank and check each one

 

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Silent Flight said:

@Tony BrooksHe wants the displays on his phone, as he has mobility problems so wouldn’t be able to go down into the battery bank and check each one

 

 

On the face of it, that sounds like a valid reason, but who ever said he had to go down into the battery bank to check them.  My ammeter and voltmeter were in the back cabin, but they could just as easily have been located in the living or sleeping area.

[Silent Flight]

So I guess I will have to recommend to him replace with the same multi 12/3000/120 unit, as can’t see any benefit of a multi plus 2. Or see anything with those specs as an all in one unit.

 

And then add a mppt and Cerbo GX.

 

Then advise to get the biggest/best battery’s you want to shell out for?

 

Cant find any alternatives to Victron or any other options in this specific situation 

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

My ammeter and voltmeter were in the back cabin, but they could just as easily have been located in the living or sleeping area.

Okay thanks will let him know the dials are a option too then 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Silent Flight said:

Okay thanks will let him know the dials are a option too then 

 

Don't use 'dials' you cannot read them accurately enough and even 0.1 volt makes a huge difference to how well charged your battery(s) is

Get a digital display.

 

Your friend also needs to know WHEN to read the battery voltage.

 

Table showing voltage vs State of Charge (look at the column  "V-open circuit 12v battery"

 

 

 

Edited April 1 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Silent Flight said:

Then advise to get the biggest/best battery’s you want to shell out for?

 

No good paying for premium batteries if it turns out you can't keep them more or less fully charged each day, they will sulphate just as easily as a cheaper battery. The cheaper battery will have less cyclic life but that tends to be less of a problem than sulphation because the charging is not understood.

 

13 minutes ago, Silent Flight said:

Okay thanks will let him know the dials are a option too then 

 

Only if they are accurate, and he knows how to use and interpret them.

 

I dispute Alan's table above. that looks like non-rested voltages straight off charge, not rested voltage, which is what you use to infer state of charge.

[Silent Flight]

Pretty sure that’s why he wanted it digital on the phone, so he can check the battery’s anytime from his pocket. Not used one myself but imagine if on the Victron app there would be notifications if went past a certian volt and then can act accordingly. 
 

And he favoured the closed battery’s like the glass mat/gel as topping up cells isn’t possible for him. Also the longer life doesn’t seem like a bad thing 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I dispute Alan's table above. that looks like non-rested voltages straight off charge, not rested voltage, which is what you use to infer state of charge.

 

That is entirely your 'right' but my batteries tend to be at the 12.7 - 12.8 after several hours off charge and the surface charge dissipated. If I was to take a reading when the charger was initially switched off it would be well up in the '13s' and, after an hour or two maybe still at 12.9.

 

 

I was using my Halfords 'battery boiler' one day to do an equalisation on a Tractor battery and forgot to turn it off, the next day it was it was 16+ volts.

After being turned off for over 24 hours it was still reading 15v (and still had 'water' in it).

 

Another source quoting similar figures :

 

https://www.batteryskills.com/

 

It is also important to remember that different types of lead-acid batteries have different fully charged and fully discharged voltages. For example, 12V sealed lead-acid batteries are fully charged at around 12.89 volts and fully discharged at around 12.23 volts (assuming 50% max depth of discharge).

12V flooded lead-acid batteries are fully charged at around 12.64 volts and fully discharged at around 12.07 volts (assuming 50% max depth of discharge).

Edited April 1 by Alan de Enfield

[blackrose]

6 hours ago, Silent Flight said:

I’m not sure just took his word for it they are getting removed and need replacing 

 

If "your friend" is asking you to find out what equipment to install then it sounds like he may not know much himself. So it might be worth asking him what exactly is wrong with the inverter before he removes and bins a perfectly good unit. Also ask him how he knows it's not working if the batteries feeding it are knackered? If it really isn't working then possibly it could be repaired rather than replaced.

[Silent Flight]

Yeah ‘my friend’ has asked about getting the inverter/charger repaired. Reading into it for him, often it gets shipped back to Holland which becomes expensive and then makes more financial sense to find a replacement with a 5 year warranty. I’ve found a couple of places that are Victron dealers. However he’s been told already before and after the survey it’s an issue on the boat, so it seems like flogging a dead horse.
 

I’m just trying to figure something out for an old pal, who wants to spend his days outside of four walls but has to have power for a certain level of care and comfort. He has a good budget to upgrade everything.

 

I was hoping for an easy answer but that’s boats I guess. My mistake that I showed him the Victron EasySolar as it does seem like a step in the right direction, but the numbers don’t add up. Shame they haven’t made that unit in 12v!