Incident with bridge keeper-Licence suspended

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Markblox said:

I had an altercation with a bridge keeper recently, one where I received abuse, sent some back and moored up to ask why etc and then was assaulted and defended myself.  It was six of one and half a dozen of the other TBH.  That's all the details that are needed

 

It always bothers me when I read or hear this from someone seeking support. 

 

It gives the impression there are further details being withheld which probably damage the case. 

[Paul C]

9 minutes ago, Markblox said:

Yes thank you, If anyone replies can you just read my carefully worded questions and if you can offer advice please do. Appreciated.

Yes, I have also found them good in the main too.  

I have been told the police were called and the CRT has said they will talk to me but I haven't heard from them.

The allegations are against the T&C's

 

Thank you for the update. At this point I will duck out, I don't its my place to judge.

 

Orwellian - thank you for the quote, somehow I missed the "....risk to......safety" wording, which could be used here.

 

In which case, the suspension is valid and you ought to stay put, to not cause further issues.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

Looks like CRT have invoked clause 12.3 of their T&Cs viz:-

 

 

12.3. If You repeatedly breach these Conditions, fail to pay for the Licence or We reasonably believe that there is serious risk to people's health and safety, or of damage to any property or pollution, We may do one of the following: 12.3.1. immediately suspend Your Licence. We will investigate to decide whether the breach can be put right. Whilst Your Licence is suspended You may not use the Boat to navigate on Our Waterways. The Boat must remain moored where We tell You whilst We investigate.  We will tell You when and if the Boat can leave this mooring location.  You may move the Boat before We complete Our investigation if You remove it from Our Waterways; or 12.3.2. terminate Your Licence immediately. This can happen if We decide the breach cannot be put right. We will also terminate the Licence when the number of repeated breaches is unreasonable and/or likely to risk the health and safety of others. We will not refund any suspension period or remaining licence period if the Licence is terminated under this Condition 12.3.

 

 

That looks pretty clear and unambiguous - 'you' accepted their T&Cs when you bought your licence and stating that you did not read them is not acceptable in law (no defence).

 

It would look as if the OP has two options :

 

1) Make humble apologies to C&RT and the bridge operative, and hope they are feeling charitable, or

2) See if you can get a Judge to rule that this 'rule' affects your 'Human rights' and is not enforcable - but, in light of the cases of C&RT employees being beaten up, and in one case being killed, it may not be a very strong argument.

[Markblox]

2 minutes ago, Peanut said:

I very much doubt that anyone on here can give you any definitive answers you're maybe looking for. The ball is in their court, and you have to wait and see how they play it.

I think you are right, I have had a few great answers but predictably most answers are not very helpful.  I suppose I have to wait until they decide to end the suspension which has been changed date wise.  I need diesel, food, water, gas and a black tank and will need sorting at some point and it's a bit cruel when the conduct of their employee was so poor in the first instance, My reaction was also poor and I was then assaulted which I then defended myself.  I won't give any more details on that because that is not pertinent to my post. They have pre judged this and not even asked for my account before suspending my licence.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Markblox said:

My reaction was also poor and I was then assaulted which I then defended myself.

 

How could the bridge operative have assaulted you if you hadn't stoped, moored up, and walked back to 'ave a word or two'. That looks as if you were spoiling for a fight.

[Markblox]

10 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

Looks like CRT have invoked clause 12.3 of their T&Cs viz:-

 

 

12.3. If You repeatedly breach these Conditions, fail to pay for the Licence or We reasonably believe that there is serious risk to people's health and safety, or of damage to any property or pollution, We may do one of the following: 12.3.1. immediately suspend Your Licence. We will investigate to decide whether the breach can be put right. Whilst Your Licence is suspended You may not use the Boat to navigate on Our Waterways. The Boat must remain moored where We tell You whilst We investigate.  We will tell You when and if the Boat can leave this mooring location.  You may move the Boat before We complete Our investigation if You remove it from Our Waterways; or 12.3.2. terminate Your Licence immediately. This can happen if We decide the breach cannot be put right. We will also terminate the Licence when the number of repeated breaches is unreasonable and/or likely to risk the health and safety of others. We will not refund any suspension period or remaining licence period if the Licence is terminated under this Condition 12.3.

No, it's 8 and 13.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Markblox said:

My questions to you:

Can I move the boat to get food, water gas, diesel black tank etc, possibly under the ECHR article 8 because I don't intend to die of thirst, starvation or hypothermia?

 

I'd suggest no, assuming you are fit and able to walk and carry stuff. If you are disabled then I'd say CRT are on thin ice with this. 

 

(Seeing as no-one has addressed this question specifically.)

[Orwellian]

3 minutes ago, Markblox said:

No, it's 8 and 13.

Eh? 8 deals with Payment and 13 with Navigation Stoppages and Closures.

[Markblox]

Anyone have any idea how long it takes for the CRT to get a court order as we live aboard and that is required?  I don't want to be on the CRT waterways and I can either get the boat transported by lorry or if they will allow could cruise out at the end of the winter.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Markblox said:

No, it's 8 and 13.

 

Are you sayning they have suspended your licence for reasons listed in the Licence T&Cs - clauses 8 and 13 ?

 

Your description of events would suggest that you have done something else as Clauses 8 & 13 are not relevant.

 

Are you sure ?

 

8. Payment

8.1. You shall pay the Licence Fee to the Trust as set out in these Conditions, and Schedule 2. Further useful guidance on the Licence Fee can be found in Schedule 2 and 3, also at www.canalrivertrust.org.uk/licensing

8.2. The price of the Licence Fee is published and revised each year from 1st April and You agree to pay the amount due (including, if appropriate, any late payment charges). Schedule 2 sets out further details on the Licence Fees and Schedule 2 sets out further details on the payment terms. 8.3. The prompt payment rate applies for qualifying applications. The qualifying criteria are set out in Schedule 2.

8.4. A late payment charge of £150 applies for any boat which is on the Waterway unlicensed for more than one calendar month without a valid licence. If the Boat was not on the Waterway for the unlicensed period, You must provide satisfactory evidence of this. The late payment charge will be payable in addition to the Licence Fee, which will be backdated to either the correct date that the Licence was needed or the end of the previous licence. The late payment charge is a fair reflection of the additional cost incurred by the Trust in collecting overdue licence fees.

8.5. If the Boat remains unlicensed on the Waterway for any period, including when the licence has expired or been terminated, We may charge You the pro rata equivalent of the Licence Fee for that period. This does not affect any other rights or claims We may have against You including any rights We may have for breach of these Conditions.

8.6. We may recover from You any reasonable costs, charges and/or expenses We may incur as a result of Your failure to comply with the Conditions. Examples of what We may recover from You include but are not limited to: 8.6.1. legal costs; 8.6.2. daily charges for staying longer than the maximum time allowed at any particular location; 8.6.3.other administrative charges. These are costs for Our and any of Our Contractors' time spent enforcing the Conditions, including costs for moving the Boat on the Waterway or removing the Boat from the Waterway; General Terms and Conditions 1.10.21 v3 Page 9 of 26 8.6.4. all costs resulting from any third-party claims made against Us as a result of Your breach of the Conditions

 

 

 

13. Navigation Stoppages and Closures

13.1. The Licence fee allows the correctly licensed Boat to be on Trust Waterways. The Licence is not a guarantee of access or availability of the Waterway.

13.2. We will do our best to keep the Waterways open for navigation. We might need to put Closures in place because of unforeseen events or essential maintenance and repair work. Except in emergencies or when it is unavoidable, we will try to plan maintenance work to cause You the least disruption. When we can, we will advertise closures and how long we think they will be in place for. This will allow You to plan Your cruising around closures. There may be times beyond our reasonable control when closures over-run. We will advertise delays as quickly as possible. There may be other times beyond our reasonable control, when we must close part or, exceptionally, all of the Waterway.

13.3. If We must close the Waterway as described in Condition 13.2, We will not refund any of Your licence fee, where the Boat remains on the Waterway.

13.4. We are not liable for any damages or loss caused by closure of the Waterway unless We are negligent and cause personal injury or death

 

 

[Markblox]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

How could the bridge operative have assaulted you if you hadn't stoped, moored up, and walked back to 'ave a word or two'. That looks as if you were spoiling for a fight.

He couldn't have obviously but have a word or two(your phrase) doesn't give hime the right to assault me.  

[Orwellian]

3 minutes ago, Markblox said:

Anyone have any idea how long it takes for the CRT to get a court order as we live aboard and that is required?  I don't want to be on the CRT waterways and I can either get the boat transported by lorry or if they will allow could cruise out at the end of the winter.

 

Required for what?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Markblox said:

Anyone have any idea how long it takes for the CRT to get a court order as we live aboard and that is required?  I don't want to be on the CRT waterways and I can either get the boat transported by lorry or if they will allow could cruise out at the end of the winter.

 

 

A court order is NOT required because you are a liveaboard, C&RT generally do go to a Judge prior to removing liveboards and request a Court Order but that is  just to satisfy themselves they are acting lawfully in the circumstances.

[Markblox]

5 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

Eh? 8 deals with Payment and 13 with Navigation Stoppages and Closures.

Section 8 & 13 of the British Waterways Act.

 

2 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

Required for what?

If they revoke a licence you have 28 days to remove the boat from their waters unless you live aboard in which case they need a court order.

 

[Tony Brooks]

35 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

I find it strange that the op stopped and got off his boat as there is no need to leave the boat at any bridges on the G&S.  This gives the impression of an act of aggression.

 

Well, having been shouted at by a bridge keeper who was not showing any light on the traffic lights, I can well understand why someone may wish to get off the boat to a complaint without shouting.

[nicknorman]

The CRT Ts and Cs have no legal standing.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Markblox said:

If they revoke a licence you have 28 days to remove the boat from their waters unless you live aboard in which case they need a court order.

 

Can you provide evidence of that, as I can find nothing in C&RTs section 8 process that explains that they need to -  or -  is it just a 'wish' ?

[Orwellian]

3 minutes ago, Markblox said:

Section 8 & 13 of the British Waterways Act.

 

If they revoke a licence you have 28 days to remove the boat from their waters unless you live aboard in which case they need a court order.

 

You originally said the licence had been suspended not revoked. Make your mind up.

[Markblox]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A court order is NOT required because you are a liveaboard, C&RT generally do go to a Judge prior to removing liveboards and request a Court Order but that is  just to satisfy themselves they are acting lawfully in the circumstances.   That is incorrect.  Their letter says as I described.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Markblox said:

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A court order is NOT required because you are a liveaboard, C&RT generally do go to a Judge prior to removing liveboards and request a Court Order but that is  just to satisfy themselves they are acting lawfully in the circumstances.   That is incorrect.  Their letter says as I described.

 

Your teminology seems to change as the thread evolves.

 

Why not take a picture of the letter, remove any personal details and let us see what it actually says.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Markblox said:

He couldn't have obviously but have a word or two(your phrase) doesn't give hime the right to assault me.  

 

Unless he felt threatened and felt the need to defend himself.

[matty40s]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Can you provide evidence of that, as I can find nothing in C&RTs section 8 process that explains that they need to -  or -  is it just a 'wish' ?

CRT use sections 8 and 13 as a matter of course in virtually all instances of "getting rid of a boater off our wayerways". It is not the best way, as highlighted by Nigel Moore RIP, and is a blunt tool to achieve an end that can immediately be overturned if the boater reapplies for a licence having satisfied the insurance, BSS and payments side of things.

[Markblox]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Can you provide evidence of that, as I can find nothing in C&RTs section 8 process that explains that they need to -  or -  is it just a 'wish' ?

t say if the licence is revoked:

If you do not remove your boat these 28 days, the trust will either:

a) remove your boat from its waterways (where you do not live on your boat); or

b) start court proceedings to obtain an order that enables us to remove your boat from its waterways (where the boat is your home).

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Your teminology seems to change as the thread evolves.

 

Why not take a picture of the letter, remove any personal details and let us see what it actually says.

Tried to do that but the file is too big.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, matty40s said:

CRT use sections 8 and 13 as a matter of course in virtually all instances of "getting rid of a boater off our wayerways". It is not the best way, as highlighted by Nigel Moore RIP, and is a blunt tool to achieve an end that can immediately be overturned if the boater reapplies for a licence having satisfied the insurance, BSS and payments side of things.

 

Yes I was aware of that, my question was more what evidence has he that C&RT are obliged to go for a court order if the boater is a liveaboard.

 

I can find nothing in the various Acts, or in C&RT's process paperwork that support that.

[Markblox]

11 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

You originally said the licence had been suspended not revoked. Make your mind up.

Pay attention, the licence is currently suspended but IF they revoke, that is the next step.