Wi-Fi

[Paul C]

Phone backup can sometimes be good, and sometimes be completely useless because within the boat (Faraday cage) or even by a window, it sometimes achieves (almost) no decent signal. And would you leave your phone in a flowerpot on the roof? Or take the SIM out and put it into the mifi router?

 

I've seen bizarre stuff with mobile phone signals - like terrible data speeds on one side of Telford's basin (next to the student flats) but reasonable on the other side; or the phone getting high speed within the boat and the mifi with external aerial almost nothing; then vice versa at a few miles down the canal.

[magnetman]

I use a Zopkins 4G CCTV camera. It takes a data sim and as well as being a remote viewing camera via phone app it also creates a wifi hotspot which is programmed via an IP and login. 

 

Works for me but I have pretty low scale internet use. One advantage is it is IP67 so can be mounted outdoors anywhere and just needs a 12v feed. 

 

 

Of course as it is a wifi the signal will be affected by the boat steelwork so it depends where you use the device inside compared with where the camera/aerial is mounted. 

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Phone backup can sometimes be good, and sometimes be completely useless because within the boat (Faraday cage) or even by a window, it sometimes achieves (almost) no decent signal. And would you leave your phone in a flowerpot on the roof? Or take the SIM out and put it into the mifi router?

 

I've seen bizarre stuff with mobile phone signals - like terrible data speeds on one side of Telford's basin (next to the student flats) but reasonable on the other side; or the phone getting high speed within the boat and the mifi with external aerial almost nothing; then vice versa at a few miles down the canal.

 

Especially where there are a lot of reflections (multipath signals) signal level can vary quite drastically over short distances (several metres or even a few inches) as the signals add or subtract -- this is one of the things that a MIMO antenna helps with, so long as the separate antennae are far enough apart the chances are that one will have better signal if the other is in a null. The small MiFi window-mounted units (or phones, or small routers with internal antennas) are often not big enough for this to be effective.

 

Steel boat cabins are very good signal reflectors so this can be a particular problem, especially with an external antenna (like the Poynting ones) that is intended to be mounted well clear (>1m - 2m?) of any big metal reflectors (e.g. boat roof), and this can give poor/inconsistent performance unless they're mounted on a mast -- and extra height also increases signal level. The alternative is an external antenna intended for mounting on a metal ground plane (e.g roof of a truck) which avoids this problem, this is what I went for but they tend to be expensive... 😞

 

An external MIMO antenna on a (steel-hulled) boat will almost always be better than anything inside the boat; if the boat itself is in a dead spot, moving even a few metres (or tens of them) can make a big difference too.

Edited October 27, 2023 by IanD

[Tony1]

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Some of the piggybacking providers (MVNOs) have exactly the same coverage and features as the parent network (e.g. 1pmobile on EE), some have (often well-hidden...) limitations such as not using all available bands which reduces coverage in remote areas (e.g. Lyca Mobile on EE), and it's often not easy to find out about these limitations -- see here for some examples:

 

https://www.simsherpa.com/networks/ee/virtual-providers-on-ee

 

What the MVNOs often are is cheaper and with no long-term contracts to lock you in (usually 1 month only), so if you can find one that suits you (e.g. 1pmobile, Smarty) they're almost always a better deal than the parent network provider (e.g. EE, Three).

 

Thanks, that's useful info. 

I imagine that most boaters could live with a cheap piggybacker provider, if the only penalty was that it gave slightly slower service than the parent provider.

But patchy rural coverage (like the Lycamobile setup) probably wouldn't be considered very useful for many boaters.

So the devil really is in the detail with these things. 

 

23 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Phone backup can sometimes be good, and sometimes be completely useless because within the boat (Faraday cage) or even by a window, it sometimes achieves (almost) no decent signal. And would you leave your phone in a flowerpot on the roof? Or take the SIM out and put it into the mifi router?

 

 

Nowadays I keep a SIM-remover mini poker thingy close to the router for this very reason. Trying to find one of these tiny tools- even if you can remember where you last put it-  can be a right pain. 

 

I've been in a few places where the O2 SIM didnt work even with the mast, but the EE SIM  in my phone still got some signal, when outside the boat.

So yes, I have left the phone on the roof wrapped in a plastic bag (usually under a solar panel), or out in the cratch.

I wouldn't do it in a place with heavy footfall on the towpath, and never in a built up area, but in quiet/rural places I have risked putting the phone on the roof! 

If thats not enough, I then try the EE SIM in the router, so that it gets the extra help from the mast.

The things we do for a bit of internet....

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Tony1

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks, that's useful info. 

I imagine that most boaters could live with a cheap piggybacker provider, if the only penalty was that it gave slightly slower service than the parent provider.

But patchy rural coverage (like the Lycamobile setup) probably wouldn't be considered very useful for many boaters.

So the devil really is in the detail with these things. 

 

 

It is indeed. It's also worth noting that networks -- Three in particular -- who offer lots of cheap unlimited data deals (including via MVNOs) are also the first choice of people who want to download/stream massive amounts of data, and often suffer from bad congestion (low data rates) especially at peak times and in crowded areas as a result, so the promised "Unlimited fast 5G data" may not always be delivered... 😉

[Tony1]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

It is indeed. It's also worth noting that networks -- Three in particular -- who offer lots of cheap unlimited data deals (including via MVNOs) are also the first choice of people who want to download/stream massive amounts of data, and often suffer from bad congestion (low data rates) especially at peak times and in crowded areas as a result, so the promised "Unlimited fast 5G data" may not always be delivered... 😉

 

The thing is though, I bet many boaters would grudgingly put up with a slow service, as long they can get something. So at least you can read emails for example, and maybe watch a bit of video.  

Its the total absence of any usable signal that is the deal breaker for me. So when the time comes, I wont be put off using Three, as long as I'm satisfied they have good rural coverage. But Lycamobile sounds like it'll be no use at all to me. 

I have pondered dropping O2 and using EE in the router as well as in my phone, but in the Anderton area I would have been scuppered if I'd done that- so for me, there is still case for O2 (or perhaps Three) as a backup to EE.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Tony1

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

The thing is though, I bet many boaters would grudgingly put up with a slow service, as long they can get something. So at least you can read emails for example, and maybe watch a bit of video.  

Its the total absence of any usable signal that is the deal breaker for me. So when the time comes, I wont be put off using Three, as long as I'm satisfied they have good rural coverage. But Lycamobile sounds like it'll be no use at all to me. 

I have pondered dropping O2 and using EE in the router as well as in my phone, but in the Anderton area I would have been scuppered if I'd done that- so for me, there is still case for O2 (or perhaps Three) as a backup to EE.

 

 

Of course, it all depends on your requirements. But with more and more people (like me) giving up using a TV aerial and relying on streaming (iPlayer etc) to watch TV, being unable to do this becomes an increasing problem -- and (sadly?) reasonable internet access is becoming a fundamental life requirement for more and more people. One solution is a dual-SIM router which can switch networks, but as well as the router being more expensive (and limited choice) this increases your SIM cost.

 

Anderton is pretty much the worst place I've found for EE (outdoor 4G only, see snapshot from BIDB), so it's a good job I don't spend much time on the boat there... 😉

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by IanD

[Mac IV]

Just want to say you’ve been amazing, a big thank you to everyone. 

[Paul C]

Just now, IanD said:

 

 

 

Anderton is pretty much the worst place I've found for EE, so it's a good job I don't spend much time on the boat there... 😉

 

The information for Anderton was already there - I posted a few months ago, a detailed comparison around the NW: 

 

Note that Anderton is wildly variable, according to time of day - probably an effect of an 'overloaded' service being sliced up (limited) in busy times, but then quiet times getting the full speed subject to other technical limits.

 

Put simply: for Anderton, use Vodaphone.

[Tony1]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Of course, it all depends on your requirements. But with more and more people (like me) giving up using a TV aerial and relying on streaming (iPlayer etc) to watch TV, being unable to do this becomes an increasing problem -- and (sadly?) reasonable internet access is becoming a fundamental life requirement for more and more people. One solution is a dual-SIM router which can switch networks, but as well as the router being more expensive (and limited choice) this increases your SIM cost.

 

Anderton is pretty much the worst place I've found for EE, so it's a good job I don't spend much time on the boat there... 😉

 

I'm very similar- I don't watch any normal TV, only via the internet. 

I ruled out a dual-SIM on cost grounds tbh- I can use my EE phone as a backup SIM and hotspot if needed. 

But once we are into November and the visitor moorings switch to 14 days, I may well spend a week opposite Anderton marina, and without my O2 SIM that wouldn't be an option for me, since i get almost nothing from EE as you know. 

Having the second SIM occasionally allows that flexibility to moor in locations that you would otherwise cruise past, but whether it can be justified is down to the individual. 

In your shoes I might be temped to try a PAYG SIM from Vodafone (or maybe O2 or Three) in the router, so that if you do spend the odd night on board (ie before starting a cruise next morning), you'll have some internet.

It's either that or go out throttling squirrels in the woods for entertainment. 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Tony1

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

The information for Anderton was already there - I posted a few months ago, a detailed comparison around the NW: 

 

Note that Anderton is wildly variable, according to time of day - probably an effect of an 'overloaded' service being sliced up (limited) in busy times, but then quiet times getting the full speed subject to other technical limits.

 

Put simply: for Anderton, use Vodaphone.

 

You didn't try EE though? Would presumably have been pretty bad going by my experience... 😞

[Paul C]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

You didn't try EE though? Would presumably have been pretty bad going by my experience... 😞

 

No, I tried to try all 4 networks - but the Keepgo multi-network eSIM showed odd results and clearly wasn't able to properly use all four. That's why I'm encouraging others to not limit themselves to 1 or even 2 networks when evaluating data speeds and other factors (such as consistency, whether they can actually stream telly okay, etc).

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I'm very similar- I don't watch any normal TV, only via the internet. 

I ruled out a dual-SIM on cost grounds tbh- I can use my EE phone as a backup SIM and hotspot if needed. 

But once we are into November and the visitor moorings switch to 14 days, I may well spend a week opposite Anderton marina, and without my O2 SIM that wouldn't be an option for me, since i get almost nothing from EE as you know. 

Having the second SIM occasionally allows that flexibility to moor in locations that you would otherwise cruise past, but whether it can be justified is down to the individual. 

In your shoes I might be temped to try a PAYG SIM from O2 or say Three in the router, so that if you do spend the odd night on board (ie before starting a cruise next morning), you'll have some internet.

It's either that or go out throttling squirrels in the woods for entertainment. 

 

 

I did think of a cheap PAYG non-EE SIM, but the SIM socket on the router is not easy to access and has a reputation for becoming unreliable with a lot of insertions.

 

Even in the marina I do get slow internet access most of the time which is OK for emails and web browsing, just not enough for TV. Squirrel-throttling it is then... 😉

 

(but then I don't plan to spend many nights in the marina, I'll usually drive up there in the morning and set off cruising in the afternoon, and the reverse coming back -- or moor overnight for food/beer at the Stanley Arms like I did this time and move into the marina in the morning)

 

If I did spend much time onboard at Anderton then I'd definitely need another solution.

Edited October 27, 2023 by IanD

[robtheplod]

Just out of interest, does anyone else use Vodafone - I feel all alone.....

[Paul C]

Just now, robtheplod said:

Just out of interest, does anyone else use Vodafone - I feel all alone.....

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

No, I tried to try all 4 networks - but the Keepgo multi-network eSIM showed odd results and clearly wasn't able to properly use all four. That's why I'm encouraging others to not limit themselves to 1 or even 2 networks when evaluating data speeds and other factors (such as consistency, whether they can actually stream telly okay, etc).

 

Given your slow results at Anderton on all the networks you managed to connect on, I'm not at all surprised if you couldn't get any connection on EE, it's clearly the weakest there. Even my setup struggled, and that's 4x4 MIMO with maybe 6dB higher gain (including cabling) than the commonly-used Poynting XPOL omni antenna... 😞

 

Apart from at Anderton, typical rates I saw were around 30M/15M download/upload across various locations -- the best was about 200M/50M, the worst about 4M/2M under trees on the wilds of the Rochdale -- and Murphy's law said this was where we had to stop while my sons GF had a video interview. Still just about worked though...

Edited October 27, 2023 by IanD

[Paul C]

Just now, IanD said:

 

Given your slow results at Anderton on all the networks you managed to connect on, I'm not at all surprised if you couldn't get any connection on EE, it's clearly the weakest there. Even my setup struggled, and that's 4x4 MIMO with maybe 6dB higher gain (including cabling) than the commonly-used Poynting XPOL omni antenna... 😞

 

I think that's a very risky thing to do - to try and extrapolate what an untested network's performance will be, based on other networks. It might work if there's an obvious physical or geographic feature, like being in a valley.

 

I too would have been disappointed if a 4x4 MIMO aerial and router costing £400 didn't allow streaming. Thus, I will be mildly disappointed with a £50 router/aerial, but will always wonder "what if"!!!

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

I think that's a very risky thing to do - to try and extrapolate what an untested network's performance will be, based on other networks. It might work if there's an obvious physical or geographic feature, like being in a valley.

 

I too would have been disappointed if a 4x4 MIMO aerial and router costing £400 didn't allow streaming. Thus, I will be mildly disappointed with a £50 router/aerial, but will always wonder "what if"!!!

 

I'm not extrapolating anything, just comparing the antenna gain (including cable loss) of different setups, and looking at the reported signal levels from BIDB. All networks have good and bad areas, just because one (e.g. EE) is best on average across the UK doesn't mean it's the best everywhere -- certainly not at Anderton 😞

 

So if people are spending a lot of time moored in one place, they should try different networks and choose whichever is best there.

 

As I said in the advice thread I linked to, different people have different needs and budgets, there's no one "best solution" for everybody -- I've chosen one which suits me, others may come to a different conclusion 🙂

 

(but the usual tradeoff of "you get what you pay for" also applies -- if a cheap solution isn't good enough for your needs, you'll probably need to spend more money to get one that is...)

Edited October 27, 2023 by IanD

[jonathanA]

1 hour ago, robtheplod said:

Just out of interest, does anyone else use Vodafone - I feel all alone.....

Yes  I have a proper voice/text/data sim 140gb month for just over £11 quid a month. Who are we b535 and two cheap mag mount 1/4 wave  external aerials. Seems to work everywhere we've been and in valley bottom mooring. 

 

Vodaphone typically have good backhaul from their mast sites. They also mast share with O2 for 4G.

From early next Year three and voda will merge in the UK. Subject to regulator approving

Be careful with unlimited data deals. Read the small print. Voda limit your download speed on unlimited whereas my 140Gb has no speed cap. I assume other providers do the same. 

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, jonathanA said:

Yes  I have a proper voice/text/data sim 140gb month for just over £11 quid a month. Who are we b535 and two cheap mag mount 1/4 wave  external aerials. Seems to work everywhere we've been and in valley bottom mooring. 

 

Vodaphone typically have good backhaul from their mast sites. They also mast share with O2 for 4G.

From early next Year three and voda will merge in the UK. Subject to regulator approving

Be careful with unlimited data deals. Read the small print. Voda limit your download speed on unlimited whereas my 140Gb has no speed cap. I assume other providers do the same. 

That's just a voda thingy on my smarty phone  sim I get 2-300mbs where there is 5g the same as my 3 sim in the  Router.

Be interesting to see what happens with 3/voda   I run a couple of pay upfront Three sims one at home and one in the van valid until Dec 2025

[Paul C]

24 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

That's just a voda thingy on my smarty phone  sim I get 2-300mbs where there is 5g the same as my 3 sim in the  Router.

Be interesting to see what happens with 3/voda   I run a couple of pay upfront Three sims one at home and one in the van valid until Dec 2025

 

I've had 200mbps+ on my phone (Lebara, MVNO using Vodaphone).

[Flipflop]

I’m not sure what you want to pay but many years ago my son got me a mobile router from his place of work network rail for my caravan we had good internet before most they used them in mobile locations for the signals department out on the tracks but you were looking in the region of £2000 that was then but technology has improved since then and of course price 

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

I've had 200mbps+ on my phone (Lebara, MVNO using Vodaphone).

 

In good signal conditions where there's a 5G service most modern phones (or routers) can reach hundreds of Mb/s when the network isn't congested -- though TBH this is mainly bragging rights, for most boaty purposes anything above 50Mb/s makes very little difference in actual use, even streaming UHD (4k) video.

 

The big difference comes when signal levels are poor and especially out in the sticks, when a better setup (with external antenna(s)) can make the difference between usable data rates and no connection at all.