Drift Diary: An app for Continuous Cruisers to log and prove their distance travelled

[Tasemu]

Hi all, been a while since I've posted here and i've decided to take a break from my usual begging for engine help to sit down and write something that I believe might help the boater community. I posted this on my Kennet and Avon facebook group earlier but thought it might be prudent to post it up here too. I wrote a snazzy intro i've copied below, but anyway I hope some of you might find it interesting.

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Hello everyone! 👋

As a solo software developer and fellow boater, I've been working on a solution that I believe could help us all: an app called Drift Diary.
Drift Diary is designed to track the distance we travel on our beloved rivers and canals over the course of a license year by allowing us to log photos with geotagging data, creating a digital diary of our journey. Even better, it can generate PDF reports to verify travel distance with the Canal & River Trust should they decide that we haven't gone far enough, or missed us while logging boat numbers.

But to make this app truly effective and user-friendly, I need your help. I am seeking volunteers from this group to participate in the first round of closed alpha testing for Drift Diary. This would involve using the app and providing feedback on any issues you encounter and your overall experience.

Your privacy and data are important, so rest assured, the data collected is yours and yours only, also this app will be, and will remain free for all.

It would mean a lot to have your input on this project. I believe together we can shape Drift Diary into a tool that genuinely benefits our community. If you're interested in participating or want to learn more, please let me know!

The app has been submitted to the Google Play Store for review for a closed testing run and hopefully should be approved by the end of the week. If you are interested in testing this and own an Android phone then please DM me your email so I can add you to the list, once the app is approved then an email should be sent to you and you will be able to install the app. 

There are plans to support iphones too in the future, but Apple make this prohibitively hard/expensive for me to do at this time.
Thanks in advance for your time and consideration. Happy cruising!

 

 

God those are some huge screen-shots... 😕

[IanD]

As a serious question, how do you prove that this shows where the boat has travelled as opposed to where the phone has travelled?

 

(we had this discussion on another thread recently where I suggested pretty much this solution...)

Edited July 31, 2023 by IanD

[Tasemu]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

As a serious question, how do you prove that this shows where the boat has travelled as opposed to where the phone has travelled?

 

(we had this discussion on another thread recently...)

 

My thought process was by collating a few things, one being the actual picture of the boat with the licence number showing, ideally in a recognisable area. Then it would take the metadata which is attached to the picture at the time it was taken. The latitude, longitude and the date. So if CRT for example wanted to verify that the boat was indeed there, they could visually match the area in the photo to the lat/lng supplied.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

 

My thought process was by collating a few things, one being the actual picture of the boat with the licence number showing, ideally in a recognisable area. Then it would take the metadata which is attached to the picture at the time it was taken. The latitude, longitude and the date. So if CRT for example wanted to verify that the boat was indeed there, they could visually match the area in the photo to the lat/lng supplied.

 

That was my suggestion too -- and I don't think the area needs to be recognisable so long as the geotagging metadata can't be faked, which means not just saving the photo but storing/uploading it securely so it can't be changed afterwards... 🙂

 

Just be warned that there were strident objections from people saying they didn't have a smartphone and weren't going to get one just to keep CART happy, and (wrongly!) that it was CARTs problem to prove that they hadn't moved far enough, not theirs to prove that they had... 😉

Edited July 31, 2023 by IanD

[Tasemu]

Just now, IanD said:

 

That was my suggestion too... 🙂

 

Just be warned that there were strident objections from people saying they didn't have a smartphone and weren't going to get one just to keep CART happy, and (wrongly!) that it was CARTs problem to prove that they hadn't moved far enough, not theirs to prove that they had... 😉

 

I totally agree actually, this is an option tool for those who want to be able to back it up if they know they're doing their distance. The idea has come from a few friends who got stung because the spotters were out as they were moving, or there was a mix up. I've had it once myself and was lucky i took a picture at the time.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

 

I totally agree actually, this is an option tool for those who want to be able to back it up if they know they're doing their distance. The idea has come from a few friends who got stung because the spotters were out as they were moving, or there was a mix up. I've had it once myself and was lucky i took a picture at the time.

 

See my edit -- just storing the photo (with metadata) isn't strong enough proof because there are tools that can edit metadata to fake the location, which would no doubt be known about and used by CMers, like "coots-nesting-in-my-tyre-fender".

 

The photo and metadata need to be securely encrypted by the app at the time they're taken, and preferably uploaded to a server database to store them -- this can be delayed if there's no internet available. It's also likely that the app would have to be verified (or provided by) CART to remove the possibility of it having a back-door location-hacking method...

 

Proof-of-location isn't as simple as just taking a photo... 😉

Edited July 31, 2023 by IanD

[Tasemu]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

See my edit -- just storing the photo (with metadata) isn't strong enough proof because there are tools that can edit metadata to fake the location. The photo and metadata need to be securely encrypted by the app at the time they're taken, and preferably uploaded to a server database to store them -- this can be delayed if there's no internet available. Proof-of-location isn't as simple as just taking a photo... 😉

 

This is all done already, but you're right it can be faked. However I believe that this could prove a useful tool and i've personally seen many instances of CRT disputing a CC'ers journey and then accepting proof that was magnitudes of times less thorough than this.

 

Also i believe this to be a tool useful for sorting out misunderstandings, not something to try to use to force CRT to take your word for it. If they don't trust you or think you're bullshitting and you are, this wont save you. 😆

Edited July 31, 2023 by Tasemu

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

 

This is all done already, but you're right it can be faked. However I believe that this could prove a useful tool and i've personally seen many instances of CRT disputing a CC'ers journey and then accepting proof that was magnitudes of times less thorough than this.

 

It's a great idea, but I suspect that if it became widely used by boaters as proof that they were meeting the CC rules -- which it should be! -- then CART would start looking closely at how easy to fiddle it was.

 

Even more so if it became the quick and easy de-facto way to prove this "as accepted by CART" -- you might even consider getting in touch with CART now and raising these issues, to see if you can do things to make it more believable to them in case of any dispute... 😉

Edited July 31, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

Just now, Tasemu said:

 

This is all done already, but you're right it can be faked. However I believe that this could prove a useful tool and i've personally seen many instances of CRT disputing a CC'ers journey and then accepting proof that was magnitudes of times less thorough than this.

 

Its a good idea, and I wouldnt get too hung up about and concerns about faking and hacking.

 

And being entirely voluntary any concerns about not having a smartphone are pretty irrelavent really.

 

Had we still had a boat I would have given this a go.

[Arthur Marshall]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

It's a great idea, but I suspect that if it became widely used by boaters as proof that they were meeting the CC rules -- which it should be! -- then CART would start looking closely at how easy to fiddle it was.

 

Even more so if it became the quick and easy de-facto way to prove this "as accepted by CART"... 😉

I don't think that matters too much. CRT generally accept a phone call or email with no evidence at all as long as that ties in with the boat's general history - they know their spotting is sporadic and not comprehensive. This is just useful additional evidence without having to go to all the trouble of collating it oneself. Looks good to me.

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't think that matters too much. CRT generally accept a phone call or email with no evidence at all as long as that ties in with the boat's general history - they know their spotting is sporadic and not comprehensive. This is just useful additional evidence without having to go to all the trouble of collating it oneself. Looks good to me.

I agree, it's a great idea. But at the moment CART rely on (expensive, unreliable) towpath checkers to verify boat movements, with things like this being used as a backup. The suggestion was that if this was the "official" method of proving movement -- and a much better one than towpath checkers! -- then CART could spend the money on something more directly useful to boaters like maintaining locks and paddles... 😉

Edited July 31, 2023 by IanD
typos

[ditchcrawler]

21 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't think that matters too much. CRT generally accept a phone call or email with no evidence at all as long as that ties in with the boat's general history - they know their spotting is sporadic and not comprehensive. This is just useful additional evidence without having to go to all the trouble of collating it oneself. Looks good to me.

That doesn't seem to be the case at the moment with boaters posting on FB they have been put on a 6 month licence with no discussion. It could be of course the boaters in question don't engage with CRT to discuss.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

That doesn't seem to be the case at the moment with boaters posting on FB they have been put on a 6 month licence with no discussion. It could be of course the boaters in question don't engage with CRT to discuss.

Or that they're CMers who never move any great distance and know full well that they're flouting the CC rules... 😉

Edited July 31, 2023 by IanD

[Higgs]

I keep a log. About to renew full-year licence after a year CCing. I'd much rather keep some people in work than support the app.

 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Higgs said:

I keep a log. About to renew full-year licence after a year CCing. I'd much rather keep some people in work than support the app.

 

 

 

How exactly does having an electronic log rather than a paper record like yours put people out of work?

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, M_JG said:

 

How exactly does having an electronic log rather than a paper record like yours put people out of work?

People print and write the books for payment, I guess this app is being offered free and I think a lot of boaters may find it useful for recording their travels, I record mine using Waterwayroutes to plot the route with Memory Maps  

[Higgs]

Just now, M_JG said:

 

How exactly does having an electronic log rather than a paper record like yours put people out of work?

 

It doesn't put them out of work, keeping a personal log. It puts people out of work when they become redundant and not needed, if the app becomes the mainstay of tracking.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

It doesn't put them out of work, keeping a personal log. It puts people out of work when they become redundant and not needed, if the app becomes the mainstay of tracking.

 

I cant realisticly see that happening. It would need all boaters to have a smart phone and as discussed on the other thread this is just not going to happen. Even more it doesnt currently work on iPhones anyway so iPhone users would have to switch to android unless its available on Apple devices too.

 

It surely is just a useful way of recording your cruising pattern rather than use a paper system which people like you will be free to continue doing.

[Tasemu]

I don't think i'd want that. I already have a job, not after a second one.

[magnetman]

Section 17 says you need to satisfy the Board. It seems to me it is up to the Board (now known as the Trust) how easy they arrr to satisfy. If they become less tolerant of people bending the rules then thats up to them. On the other hand if they are satisfied by an online record with geotagged photos then that would be fine. 

 

It is interesting and the obvious solution. 

 

 

"

(ii)the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances."

 

 

[Higgs]

Just now, M_JG said:

 

I cant realisticly see that happening. It would need all boaters to have a smart phone and as discussed on the other thread this is just not going to happen. Even more it doesnt currently work on iPhones anyway so iPhone users would have to switch to android unless its available on Apple devices too.

 

It surely is just a useful way of recording your cruising pattern rather than use a paper system which people like you will be free to continue doing.

 

Can't see the point in it, if it's for somewhere to record your movements, for a convenience.  I'm quite happy to keep a log for my own benefit. 

 

 

[Guest]

Just now, Higgs said:

 

Can't see the point in it, if it's for somewhere to record your movements, for a convenience.  I'm quite happy to keep a log for my own benefit. 

 

Then err carry on.

 

Strike 2.

[Higgs]

Just now, M_JG said:

 

Then err carry on.

 

Strike 2.

 

Do you have to be so childish?

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

Do you have to be so childish?

 

 

 

Strike 3 and you're out.

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by M_JG

[magnetman]

It would be a fun statistic to compare smartphone market penetration amongst owners of canal boats in Englandland versus everyone in Englandland. 

 

Maybe it is something like 50 percent versus 90 percent +. 

 

Or not. 

 

 

 

Of course there is an age factor. 

Maybe it actually IS 50 percent because of luddite/old gittery. 

 

 

 

 

Fuddy duddies probably hate smart phones.