What might this mean? Inverter issue

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, wandering said:

Thanks for this. It went to 14.2 after I plugged it in for the first time using shore line with new batteries. Not seen it go that high yet with just the engine running. 

 

Unless this is an old alternator then that suggests the batteries MIGHT not be as well charged as you think they are. Even around 1988 the typical charging voltage from an alternator was quoted as 14.2 to 14.4, and they have gone up by up to 0.3V since then.

 

On alternators the flatter the batteries the higher the charging current and the lower the charging voltage, BUT it can take many hours to reach the maximum. If it stays sub 14V for hours on the alternator then it suggests an alternator fault (blown diode). Chargers are a law unto themselves and the maximum voltage reached would tend to depend upon how it is set up (see above). 14.2 could well be fine for certain battery types.

[wandering]

I bought new batteries then I started to have engine trouble so haven’t had the chance to run the new ones for 8+ hours with the engine yet. Have been teetering around 85-90%

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, wandering said:

I bought new batteries then I started to have engine trouble so haven’t had the chance to run the new ones for 8+ hours with the engine yet. Have been teetering around 85-90%

 

Have you taken onboard the bits where you were told to ignore that reading - on Battery monitors are solar controllers. Unless the monitor is set up correctly AND regularly resynchronised that % reading is fiction and the longer it is run without resynchronisation the bigger lies it tells encouraging you to ruin your new batteries faster. Solar controllers are never to be trusted % charge wise.

[wandering]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Have you taken onboard the bits where you were told to ignore that reading - on Battery monitors are solar controllers. Unless the monitor is set up correctly AND regularly resynchronised that % reading is fiction and the longer it is run without resynchronisation the bigger lies it tells encouraging you to ruin your new batteries faster. Solar controllers are never to be trusted % charge wise.

I have a number of a trusted electric person. I’ll phone and ask them to look at it for me. Hope they are available! 

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, wandering said:

I have a number of a trusted electric person. I’ll phone and ask them to look at it for me. Hope they are available! 

 

Rather than spending money, why not do as several of us have advised you that involves spending nothing. Use the two accurate scales on the gauge (for lead acid batteries which I think you have).

 

Voltage to tell you when to recharge - recharge at around 12.2 to 12.3 volts with nothing running

 

Current to tell you when to stop charging because the batteries area s well charged as you can get them - stop charging when the charging current is around 1% to 2% of battery capacity, so assuming 3 x 110Ah batteries (no idea what you have) that is around 3 to 6 amps, a bit more if you only have one alternator. This MUST be at 14.2V plus. It is no good doing this with a charger or solar when it has dropped to the lower float voltage. If wanting to check the charger/solar just run the engine to get the voltage up.

[wandering]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Rather than spending money, why not do as several of us have advised you that involves spending nothing. Use the two accurate scales on the gauge (for lead acid batteries which I think you have).

 

Voltage to tell you when to recharge - recharge at around 12.2 to 12.3 volts with nothing running

 

Current to tell you when to stop charging because the batteries area s well charged as you can get them - stop charging when the charging current is around 1% to 2% of battery capacity, so assuming 3 x 110Ah batteries (no idea what you have) that is around 3 to 6 amps, a bit more if you only have one alternator. This MUST be at 14.2V plus. It is no good doing this with a charger or solar when it has dropped to the lower float voltage. If wanting to check the charger/solar just run the engine to get the voltage up.

I have been doing what you suggested, I think. I have been looking at the voltage into the batteries and when it comes to 12.5 I charge it with the engine as best I can. That takes it to 12.90 then I stop and start the process again the day after. 

Recent engine trouble means it dropped to 12.33 until I got access to shoreline. 

[Tony Brooks]

I am sure that we have been through all this before. I am not trying to be rude, but you still seem not to understand.

 

You can NOT USE VOLTAGE TO TELL YOU WHEN TO STOP CHARGING.

 

You MUST USE CURRENT (AMPS) AT 14.2 PLUS VOLTS TO TELL YOU WHEN THE BATTERIES ARE FULLY CHARGED. Try to do this once a week if cruising does nor do it each day.

 

Recharging at 12.5 volts is fine, although you could let it drop a bit lower with minimal effect on battery life.

 

12.9 volts is nowhere near fully charged, so you are sulphating your batteries, even waiting for the voltage to get to 14.2V plus is not fully charged. It will need that voltage held for some hours before the current drops to 1 to 2% of battery capacity, so you can consider them fully charged.

 

Battery chargers and solar controllers make things very difficult for you because they drop to float voltage when they THINK the batteries are fully charge, and they usually do it too soon.  This will be between around 13.5 volts, so still higher than 12.9.

 

By all means ignore all this and do your own thing but do it in the knowledge that you will be reducing your battery capacity and life.

[wandering]

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am sure that we have been through all this before. I am not trying to be rude, but you still seem not to understand.

 

You can NOT USE VOLTAGE TO TELL YOU WHEN TO STOP CHARGING.

 

You MUST USE CURRENT (AMPS) AT 14.2 PLUS VOLTS TO TELL YOU WHEN THE BATTERIES ARE FULLY CHARGED. Try to do this once a week if cruising does nor do it each day.

 

Recharging at 12.5 volts is fine, although you could let it drop a bit lower with minimal effect on battery life.

 

12.9 volts is nowhere near fully charged, so you are sulphating your batteries, even waiting for the voltage to get to 14.2V plus is not fully charged. It will need that voltage held for some hours before the current drops to 1 to 2% of battery capacity, so you can consider them fully charged.

 

Battery chargers and solar controllers make things very difficult for you because they drop to float voltage when they THINK the batteries are fully charge, and they usually do it too soon.  This will be between around 13.5 volts, so still higher than 12.9.

 

By all means ignore all this and do your own thing but do it in the knowledge that you will be reducing your battery capacity and life.

I’m not ignoring you.  I am actually trying to do as you say but failing, evidently.
 

I told you this is very hard for me to grasp. I’m not this stupid in other areas of my life I promise lol. I do not want to ‘do my own thing’ or willingly ruin new batteries I bought just days ago, that’s nonsense. 

I’ve been plugged in since yesterday afternoon and the readings are thus in the monitor in my bedroom:

 

SOC - 100%
CE - 0.0ah

I - 0.31

VS - 13.15%
V - 13.36%
 

lights are both green in the sine inverter and the charger has the float light on. 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by wandering

[GUMPY]

Turn the charger off count to 20 then turn it back on again and wait for it to go into float. Then your batteries may be getting near 100% 

Victron chargers use a system called Adaptive charging this has been shown not to get the batteries to 100% on more than one occasion.

Gibbo wrote a thesis as to why it doesn't  but I can't find it at the moment 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, wandering said:

I’ve been plugged in since yesterday afternoon and the readings are thus in the monitor in my bedroom:

 

But as has been explained, the 'monitors' do not work and 'tell lies' making you think your batteries are fully charged.

 

You need a Voltmeter and an ammeter.

You are aiming for a current measurement of between 1% and 3% of battery capacity (as Tony explained above)

 

With nothing drawing from the battery (everything switched off)

 

Charge the batteries until the voltage at the battery read 14.2 volts.

Take the current measurement.

 

Check (say) an hour later, voltage should still be at 14.2 (or higher is better)

Note the current measurement

Has the current remained the same or is it lower ?

 

Keep repeating every (say) hour until the current is between 1% and 2% of capacity (with the voltage at 14.2 volts or higher) and doesn't change for at least an hour.

 

Ths gives you a 99.99% state of charge.

 

You should ideally repeat and recharge your batteries every day (and as you can see it can take many hours) but in reality if you can get 'close' every couple of days and then do a (say) 8+ hour charge at the weekends you will not cause a huge amount of damage to the batteries.

 

The less frequently you charge to 100% SoC the quicker you kill the batteries - it is quite possible to kill then within a matter of weeks.

[Tony Brooks]

26 minutes ago, wandering said:

I’m not ignoring you.  I am actually trying to do as you say but failing, evidently.
 

I told you this is very hard for me to grasp. I’m not this stupid in other areas of my life I promise lol. I do not want to ‘do my own thing’ or willingly ruin new batteries I bought just days ago, that’s nonsense. 

I’ve been plugged in since yesterday afternoon and the readings are thus in the monitor in my bedroom:

 

SOC - 100%
CE - 0.0ah

I - 0.31

VS - 13.15%
V - 13.36%
 

lights are both green in the sine inverter and the charger has the float light on. 

 

 

Without the manual I don't know what Vs and CE is, but:

 

SOC = 100% is almost certainly a lie unless the meter has been recently set up for the new batteries and has been recalibrated, so best ignored. The setting up and recalibration needs doing every month or two if you must use the SOC reading. This will involve you understanding the manual.

 

I = 0.31suggest a 0.31 amp charge from some source, probably the battery charger that is on float.

 

V = 13.36 looks like the charger is in float mode at 13.36 volts but remember they often go to float too soon.

 

These readings give no indication of the batteries state fo charge.

 

 

Ruining batteries by stopping charging at 12.9 volts is not nonsense, they will not be fully charged and will thus be sulphating, reducing their capacity. I agree you are unlikely to be trying to destroy them deliberately, but if you keep on with the 12.9 volts that is what you will be doing.

 

The only reason I have persisted with this is because of your problem with understanding instructions, in most cases i would have left a poster who seemed to be ignoring the advice of several other members to their fate.

 

[MtB]

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You need a Voltmeter and an ammeter.

 

The OP already has both in their Victron BMV602. 

 

 

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/117954-inverter-is-on-the-fritz-maybe/#comment-2915388

 

 

 

Assuming a BMV602 incorporates current and voltage, which seems highly likely.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by MtB
Clarify.

[nicknorman]

50 minutes ago, wandering said:

I’m not ignoring you.  I am actually trying to do as you say but failing, evidently.
 

I told you this is very hard for me to grasp. I’m not this stupid in other areas of my life I promise lol. I do not want to ‘do my own thing’ or willingly ruin new batteries I bought just days ago, that’s nonsense. 

I’ve been plugged in since yesterday afternoon and the readings are thus in the monitor in my bedroom:

 

SOC - 100%
CE - 0.0ah

I - 0.31

VS - 13.15%
V - 13.36%
 

lights are both green in the sine inverter and the charger has the float light on. 

 

 

In an ideal world you would plug in your charger to the mains and everything would be hunky dory. Unfortunately the world isn’t ideal. There are a few pitfalls that can cause people (plenty of people, not just you!) to have problems. This forum is littered with people who have battery problems because they (not unreasonably) think the things should just work

properly. Unfortunately that often isn’t the case.

 

Firstly for some inexplicable reason, battery charger manufacturers don’t seem to be very good at making chargers that fully charge a battery without overcharging it. It’s a bit like your flashing orange light - why would someone design that to happen!?

 

Well to be fair, a problem is that in order for the charger to charge correctly it needs to know the capacity of the battery it’s charging. Normally it doesn’t, and so it has to guess. Bearing in mind the huge range of possible battery capacities, that guess can be way out. And quite often they err on the side of caution and so the battery is routinely under charged because the charger goes to float voltage too early.

 

Lead acid batteries are a pain, because the closer you get to 100% charged the slower they will accept charge. Which is why it takes 8 hrs or more to properly fully charge a battery to ward off sulphation.

 

What is needed is to hold the charging voltage up around 14.4v or so until the battery is only taking about 1 % of its Ah capacity in current. Then go to float.

 

You have the capability to monitor this it seems, judging by your report of monitor values. I think V is the battery voltage (Vs being the starter battery voltage) and I is the battery current. So you can monitor the voltage and current to make sure the charger is fully charging the batteries. In other words, the I (current) has fallen to about 1 or 2% of the total leisure battery capacity before the voltage V goes back to a float value of around 13.3v.

 

It may be that this is all fine, the guys on here are just concerned because experience has shown that quite often it isn’t fine.

 

I think the major point for you to take on board is charging via the engine alternator once you set off again. 12.9v represents a well charged battery once the charge source has been turned off for several hours. When the charge voltage hits 12.9 during charge, the battery is way, way off being fully charged. If you only charge until the voltage reaches 12.9 you will ruin the batteries quickly. So key point is to charge until the current has fallen to a few % of capacity. Unfortunately this can take a long time, but there is no escaping it for lead acid batteries if you want them to last more than a few months.

[MtB]

To summarise it into a simple rule, Wondering should read the BMV602 whilst charging and watch these two values:

 

1) The voltage in Volts, and at the same time

2) The current in Amps

 

When charging, the voltage will very slowly rise, and the current will very slowly fall.

 

The rule is: "The batteries are fully charged when the voltage gets up to 14.4V, and at the same time, the current has fallen to between 3A and 6A."

 

 

 

(This makes the assumption that the three new batteries fitted recently are approx 100AH each in capacity.)

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, MtB said:

To summarise it into a simple rule, Wondering should read the BMV602 whilst charging and watch these two values:

 

1) The voltage in Volts, and at the same time

2) The current in Amps

 

When charging, the voltage will very slowly rise, and the current will very slowly fall.

 

The rule is: "The batteries are fully charged when the voltage gets up to 14.4V, and at the same time, the current has fallen to between 3A and 6A."

 

 

 

(This makes the assumption that the three new batteries fitted recently are approx 100AH each in capacity.)

 

Or to make it even simpler perhaps, and as Alan alluded to a few posts up.

 

 

Keep charging with the ALTERNATOR until the current has stopped falling over an hour or so, but ensure the voltage is 14.2 or more.

 

You can't really do it from solar, charger, or if you have a fancy "charge enhancer" fitted because all are likely to drop into a lower float voltage.

 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Or to make it even simpler perhaps, and as Alan alluded to a few posts up.

 

 

Keep charging with the ALTERNATOR until the current has stopped falling over an hour or so, but ensure the voltage is 14.2 or more.

 

You can't really do it from solar, charger, or if you have a fancy "charge enhancer" fitted because all are likely to drop into a lower float voltage.

 

 

Yes, only really works when using the alternator.

 

I guess my point was the OP can use the rule I drafted to recognise when their batteries are NOT being fully charged, despite what the charger might be telling them.