Purchased a canal boat with incorrect history - help!

[David Mack]

7 hours ago, magnetman said:

Why would boat material make any difference to what the index number plate should be made of ? 

My recollection is that when index numbers were first introduced it was a vinyl sticker for boats up to 20 feet ( most likely to be cruisers) and pressed aluminium plates for longer craft (mostly narrow boats). At the time many nbs had wooden cabins so screw on plates were easily attached. I believe you could have vinyl in lieu of aluminium or vice versa if you requested it on your application (I.e. before the number had been allocated).

[magnetman]

That makes sense as I know at least one b

oat about 30ft which is GRP and has pressed aluminium index number plates. 

The craft is from approximately 1976. It is an ex BW boat so could have had special dispensation and the number is 60000.

[enigmatic]

23 hours ago, MtB said:

Are you keen to find out more simply out of curiosity or are you planning to go back to the seller and ask for a refund based on misrepresentation? 

 

If the latter I think you'll face an uphill struggle. 

tbf, if they provided a copy of a fake survey and knowingly lied in writing about the age, the theoretical threat of a fraud case might get the original vendor to back down (not gonna get anyway if it was all a conversation)

 

And as @Arthur Marshall pointed out, the 9.6mm base plate reading may actually be a genuine survey of a 6mm hull that has been overplated, and it may also have a 90s or later engine type retrofitted even if it is from the 70s (dead giveaway if it doesn't and it isn't "vintage" either!), and whilst most narrowboaters could tell the difference between a typical 70s boat and typical 90s boat by looking at the hull and the spec, not all boaters know much about their boats.

[magnetman]

I don't think an ultrasonic thickness gauge would register the combined thickness of overplating and original steel. There will be an air gap and one thing a UTG hates is air. You might be able to get it to read both if you measured exactly where there was a weld..

 

If it has a 10mm base it is either incredibly inappropriately rebottomed or not very old. 

In my Opinion. 

[Grassman]

23 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes there are gaps and inconsistencies but if your boat registration number appears on this list it gives you a rough idea of its age (unless it spent its early years somewhere else and only got its reg-number when it came onto BW / C&RT waters)

 

Boat Registration Number By Date

 

Reg number: Date first registered with B.W:
60011 to 70561 1980/1*
77500 to 77599 1980/1*
77700 to 79999 1980/1*
76000 to 77499 1982
77600 to 77699 1982
73000 to 73099 1983
75000 to 75399 1983
70562 to 71580 1984
71581 to 72567 1985
72568 to 72599 1986
73100 to 73800 1986
72600 to 72999 1987
73801 to 74856 1987
45501 to 45505 1988
74857 to 74999 1988
75400 to 75999 1988
45506 to 47299 1989
47300 to 49586 1990
49587 to 51320 1991
51321 to 52606 1992
52607 to 53554 1993
53555 to 54394 1994
54395 to 55000 1995
500010 to 500398 1995
500399 to 501364 1996
501365 to 502357 1997
502358 to 503369 1998
503370 to 504424 1999
504425 to 2000
* = System first launched for 1980/1 so boats listed as this will include craft built before this date

 

Thanks for this. But I thought there were some boats with 6 digit numbers that pre-date my 1995 boat???

[ionayes]

On 27/03/2023 at 18:17, Mike Tee said:

Ask the surveyor whose survey you looked at - you did get a copy?

No, I looked at it when I viewed the boat and the seller told me it was in a drawer when I picked her up. I didn't check at the time and it turns out he had taken it along with all other docs and he's now disconnected his phone. I'm clearly a bit naive! It would have been a good idea though.

[ionayes]

On 27/03/2023 at 18:33, David Mack said:

Teddesley Boat Co were building boats in the 70s and possibly into the 80s, but I'm pretty sure they stopped long before the 90s. 6mm baseplate would be the norm for a boat of that age. 

Teddesley's boats had steel hulls and fibreglass cabins. So is your cabin fibreglass? If its steel that could have been put on in the 90s when the boat was refitted.

Was the survey commissioned by you, or is it an earlier one shown to you by the vendor? Do you have a copy of the survey or the name of the surveyor? Was this a private sale or from a broker/boatyard?

If you post a picture or two folks here can give you better advice.

My cabin is fibreglass with a steel hull, yes! 

The survey was commissioned by the seller in Sept 2021, I didn't get one before purchase.

It was a private sale and I don't have a copy of any documentation, He said he had left it on the boat but it's not there and now his phone is disconnected.

Yes, hopefully it was re-plated when it was refitted and the survey is correct. I'll take some pictures tomorrow as well as a pic of the company that refitted it and post it on here too. 

 

Thank you so much for all your advice on this thread, I really appreciate it. 

[ionayes]

On 28/03/2023 at 18:21, enigmatic said:

tbf, if they provided a copy of a fake survey and knowingly lied in writing about the age, the theoretical threat of a fraud case might get the original vendor to back down (not gonna get anyway if it was all a conversation)

 

And as @Arthur Marshall pointed out, the 9.6mm base plate reading may actually be a genuine survey of a 6mm hull that has been overplated, and it may also have a 90s or later engine type retrofitted even if it is from the 70s (dead giveaway if it doesn't and it isn't "vintage" either!), and whilst most narrowboaters could tell the difference between a typical 70s boat and typical 90s boat by looking at the hull and the spec, not all boaters know much about their boats.

Thank you - this is really helpful. The seller has disconnected his phone, but even if I could contact him I would only want information - I am where I am now with the purchase.

 

I will take a picture of the exterior and the engine bay tomorrow and post it on here as it sounds like that might indicate the age. I am certainly a novice boater who's having to quickly learn! 

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, ionayes said:

Thank you - this is really helpful. The seller has disconnected his phone, but even if I could contact him I would only want information - I am where I am now with the purchase.

 

 

 

My gut feeling with all this is you've been stitched up a treat by a dishonest seller. I think you may as well start from scratch and piece together whatever you can from what you have. Him disconnecting his phone after completing the deal is as fishy as F. 

 

Firstly, do you have a receipt for the purchase, or any other proof the boat is yours? Does it have a name and hopefully, an address on it? 

 

Secondly the fibreglass top pretty well confirms the boat is from the 1970s or earlier. 

 

Thirdly have you registered it with CRT as yours yet? Any problems?

 

I think you may as well just get on with using it as there is no way back with this purchase. Maybe get it docked this summer and at least have a hull survey so you know exactly what you have.

 

 

[Mike Tee]

Reading what you say about the seller going 'dark', and all the lies he seems to have told you,I now wonder if it was his boat to sell.

[enigmatic]

56 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Reading what you say about the seller going 'dark', and all the lies he seems to have told you,I now wonder if it was his boat to sell.

 

It's certainly worth making enquiries, especially if the seller hasn't advised about changing the boat's registration with the CRT...

 

Then again, there are plenty of people who do have boats to sell that'll happily tell a pack of lies for extra cash, or just to sell the boat quicker. I've seen ads for Springers where the vendor has gone back and edited the boatbuilder a couple of weeks later.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

It's certainly worth making enquiries, especially if the seller hasn't advised about changing the boat's registration with the CRT...

 

Or to spell it out, if the 'seller' could not advise CRT because they are not the registered owner. 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

As the CRT registration doesn't move with the boat, CRT would surely advise if there's a problem when the current owner registers his mooring (assuming he's not CC) and gets a licence for it. It may just be the previous owner hadn't licenced it, licence had expired or there may be nothing untoward at all.

All I ever got on my purchase was an undated receipt typed on a scap of paper, no other documentation at all. Many were sold then on a handshake, one on my mooring got bought when the buyer just presented the owner with a briefcase full of tenners. And I changed my phone number after a house sale once as I didn't want the new owner to pester me with daft questions! As there's no real documents for a boat, you do have to take a lot on trust.