Batteries not charging as expected

[MtB]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Yes candles are fantastic. New fangled electric lights are so complicated, expensive and totally pointless.

 

On the other hand, making your own candles in the coming post-nuclear winter will be a darned sight easier than constructing a generator, mining some copper, making the light bulb etc. Just catch yourself a pig....

 

[DShK]

I will say I am enjoying the benefits of lithium already - not having to worry about partial state of charge when the solar hasn't pulled enough in to top them up over a few days, being able to turn on the electric immersion for hot water on sunny days.

 

Not really getting the fast charging with these unfortunately, as my absorption time is quite long at 13.8V....

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

In the not too distant future, there will be ready built commercial charging systems for Li batteries that do make them simple rather than a string of repurposed equipment or an odd home brew. Until then, I think many will stack with LA batteries.

 

I bet when we changed from three brush to two brush dynamos, people said the regulator made them complicated, but they got accepted. Ditto the change from dynamo to alternators, especially the 10 & 11 AC range with separate regulator, warning light control and energisation relay. They got simplified as well into the ACR range.

 

There are already properly-designed BMS/charging systems available that do just that. However these cost more than cheap rubbish ones (or off-the-shelf drop-in LFP batteries with who-knows-what inside), so guess what most people go for?

 

Even with drop-in LFP batteries there are good more expensive ones (properly built, matched cells, good BMS with active balancing, high current ratings, comms to external world) and bad cheap ones (poorly built, mismatched cells, rubbish BMS, low current ratings, no comms). Again, guess which most people buy?

 

The simple problem is that LFP cells *need* a properly designed system wrapped round them to be as safe and reliable and long-life as promised, and it's cheaper not to do this properly and cut corners -- and so long as people buy just on price with the wool pulled over their eyes by exaggerated or just plain false advertising, they'll carry on getting their fingers burned -- sometimes literally... 😞

Edited June 2, 2023 by IanD

[DShK]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

There are already properly-designed BMS/charging systems available that do just that. However these cost more than cheap rubbish ones (or off-the-shelf drop-in LFP batteries with who-knows-what inside), so guess what most people go for?

 

Even with drop-in LFP batteries there are good more expensive ones (properly built, matched cells, good BMS with active balancing, high current ratings, comms to external world) and bad cheap ones (poorly built, mismatched cells, rubbish BMS, low current ratings, no comms). Again, guess which most people buy?

 

The simple problem is that LFP cells *need* a properly designed system wrapped round them to be as safe and reliable and long-life as promised, and it's cheaper not to do this properly and cut corners -- and so long as people buy just on price with the wool pulled over their eyes by exaggerated or just plain false advertising, they'll carry on getting their fingers burned -- sometimes literally... 😞

The problem is these systems are a completely different ball park cost wise. 400ah of cheap lithium batteries cost around £2000, the equivalent victron batteries cost £6000+. And I know nordkyn design don't think victron really know how to look after lithium properly too.

 

You do have to take into account the economy of it.... You could go through 10 sets of LA batteries for the price of just the victron batteries, without the extra equipment. So you could just treat a dozen sets of LA like trash, like they were lithium, and get the same economy out of them. 

 

So there's the halfway point of getting the most (but perhaps not perfect) out of cheaper batteries. Safety I do think comes into the equation though, but I don't think you need to spend £10k on a system to get a decent level of that. Safety is of course a balancing game, otherwise we'd all just stay indoors!

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, DShK said:

The problem is these systems are a completely different ball park cost wise. 400ah of cheap lithium batteries cost around £2000, the equivalent victron batteries cost £6000+. And I know nordkyn design don't think victron really know how to look after lithium properly too.

 

You do have to take into account the economy of it.... You could go through 10 sets of LA batteries for the price of just the victron batteries, without the extra equipment. So you could just treat a dozen sets of LA like trash, like they were lithium, and get the same economy out of them. 

 

So there's the halfway point of getting the most (but perhaps not perfect) out of cheaper batteries. Safety I do think comes into the equation though, but I don't think you need to spend £10k on a system to get a decent level of that. Safety is of course a balancing game, otherwise we'd all just stay indoors!

 

There are other good-quality vendors who are cheaper than Victron, if not as cheap as the "dirt-cheap LFP" vendors -- who are probably using/selling rejected cells from the back doors of the Chinese factories, which is *why* they're so cheap. Same with BMS, there are well-regarded ones but they do cost at least double the cheapo ones because they cost more to build -- however they're still a lot cheaper than the cells, so penny-pinching on BMS is a false economy.

 

As you say there's a "sweet spot" between the cheap rubbish and the most expensive gear from suppliers like Victron, and there are both components (cells, BMS) and drop-in LFP batteries available in this space, and from suppliers with some knowledge and expertise who can support them -- which also costs money, so they're not the absolute cheapest in the market.

 

But many people buy the cheapest gear from the cheapest supplier who knows nothing, and then complain when it doesn't work properly. I'm shocked, *shocked* I tell you...

Edited June 2, 2023 by IanD

[DShK]

Do you have a brand you recommend? Worth investigating if I can get a refund on these sterling batteries. Otherwise I might try the fogstar batteries, at least they have a better BMS. Only difficulty there is they need to be pre-ordered. Not sure what I'd do without batteries, especially as I want to finally go for a proper long cruise.

 

I had assumed that as Sterling are a well known brand, they would want to uphold a reputation of selling decent equipment. But it seems to me that their customer base is probably people who just plop them in as straight replacements and call it done. And anyone like myself who pipes up, they hope they can fob off with excuses. What a shame!

[rusty69]

42 minutes ago, DShK said:

Do you have a brand you recommend? Worth investigating if I can get a refund on these sterling batteries. Otherwise I might try the fogstar batteries, at least they have a better BMS. Only difficulty there is they need to be pre-ordered. Not sure what I'd do without batteries, especially as I want to finally go for a proper long cruise.

 

I had assumed that as Sterling are a well known brand, they would want to uphold a reputation of selling decent equipment. But it seems to me that their customer base is probably people who just plop them in as straight replacements and call it done. And anyone like myself who pipes up, they hope they can fob off with excuses. What a shame!

Lots of people on facebook recommend lifebatteries. They contain the same Eve cells as fogstar iirc, but with a shorter warranty period.Both use the JBD BMS.

 

https://www.lifebatteries.co.uk/shop

 

https://www.fogstar.co.uk/

 

I can't personally recommend them, as I use summit else.

 

If you want to build your own, buy individual grade A matched cells from same source and add BMS of your choice.

 

Winston(Thundersky) are still available from:

 

https://eveurope.eu/en/product-category/lithium-accus-en/

 

Or go direct to china through Aliexpress. Calb cells are sposed to be good too. Also worth looking at the american (Will prowse) and australia guy (Offgrid garage) on youtube for lots of advice.

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by rusty69

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, DShK said:

Do you have a brand you recommend? Worth investigating if I can get a refund on these sterling batteries. Otherwise I might try the fogstar batteries, at least they have a better BMS. Only difficulty there is they need to be pre-ordered. Not sure what I'd do without batteries, especially as I want to finally go for a proper long cruise.

 

I had assumed that as Sterling are a well known brand, they would want to uphold a reputation of selling decent equipment. But it seems to me that their customer base is probably people who just plop them in as straight replacements and call it done. And anyone like myself who pipes up, they hope they can fob off with excuses. What a shame!

 

Fogstar are new to the market and look good (and well-priced), but what they're actually like inside (design and build quality) remains to be seen, AFAIK nobody has tested or looked inside one yet.

 

The marinehowto site makes some recommendations but it's US-centric, don't know about UK availability (the Epoch one is sold by Fogstar in the UK at £400 for 12V 100Ah but they're out of stock):

 

https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/

 

Here's a test of batteries available in the UK but it's 2 years old and the market has moved on since -- they recommended Sterling (more expensive range?) but only tested capacity, didn't look a cell imbalance:

 

https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/lithium-batteries-for-boats-reviewed-12-of-the-best-lithium-boat-batteries-tested-62244

 

Sterling generally are a well-known but low-end supplier, their gear is well-priced but there have been numerous complaints from customers about problems or failures. Whether this is worse than other similar brands is difficult to say because you only ever hear about bad experiences not good ones... 😉

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Fogstar are new to the market and look good (and well-priced), but what they're actually like inside (design and build quality) remains to be seen, AFAIK nobody has tested or looked inside one yet.

 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Lots of people on facebook recommend lifebatteries. They contain the same Eve cells as fogstr iirc, but with a shorter warranty period.Both use the JBD BMS.

 

https://www.lifebatteries.co.uk/shop

 

https://www.fogstar.co.uk/

 

I can't personally recommend them, as I use summit else.

 

If you want to build your own, buy individual grade A matched cells from same source and add BMS of your choice.

 

Winston(Thundersky) are still available from:

 

https://eveurope.eu/en/product-category/lithium-accus-en/

 

Or go direct to china through Aliexpress.

 

 

I agree with everything except the last line -- going direct to China is a minefield unless you really know what you're doing and which suppliers to use, and even then there are reports of substandard products.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

I agree with everything except the last line -- going direct to China is a minefield unless you really know what you're doing and which suppliers to use, and even then there are reports of substandard products.

Thats true, and a lot of the risk is now taken by companies like fogstar and lifebatteries, so probably not worth the risk these days. When I was looking,not that long ago, these small companies didn't exist.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

 

 

OK, I agree they do look pretty good 🙂

[nicknorman]

47 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

OK, I agree they do look pretty good 🙂

I do quite like the idea of the automatic heating - you put it on charge and if it’s too cold, the charge goes to the heater. That said, we have never had the batteries go below zero. We do have manually activated heating but I’ve never really needed to use it.

[Naughty Cal]

12 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I do quite like the idea of the automatic heating - you put it on charge and if it’s too cold, the charge goes to the heater. That said, we have never had the batteries go below zero. We do have manually activated heating but I’ve never really needed to use it.

Only once has the Sterling Amps battery in the van been below zero when we have wanted to use the van and that was on probably the coldest night of last winter.

The BMS did it's job and stopped the battery accepting charge until the battery was warmed through again. 

1 hour ago, DShK said:

Do you have a brand you recommend? Worth investigating if I can get a refund on these sterling batteries. Otherwise I might try the fogstar batteries, at least they have a better BMS. Only difficulty there is they need to be pre-ordered. Not sure what I'd do without batteries, especially as I want to finally go for a proper long cruise.

 

I had assumed that as Sterling are a well known brand, they would want to uphold a reputation of selling decent equipment. But it seems to me that their customer base is probably people who just plop them in as straight replacements and call it done. And anyone like myself who pipes up, they hope they can fob off with excuses. What a shame!

We have been very happy with our Sterling Amps battery. It has been installed in the van for over 18 months now with no problems at all (despite being told by many people that it wouldn't work with our set up)

 

The cells stay very well balanced. The screenshot below is how they are typically:

 

 

(No idea why that has inserted so large!!)

 

Maybe we have been lucky and got a box with well matched cells, but we are not the only ones. We know a few people with these batteries fitted and none of them seem to be having imbalance issues. 

 

We need to get another few years from this battery for it to have been worth the outlay over two sets of FLA batteries. I guess only time will tell if the longevity is as good as is claimed. So far we are very impressed with how it performs. It certainly is a game changer over FLA.

 

[IanD]

20 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I do quite like the idea of the automatic heating - you put it on charge and if it’s too cold, the charge goes to the heater. That said, we have never had the batteries go below zero. We do have manually activated heating but I’ve never really needed to use it.

Batteries sitting on the baseplate in a steel narrowboat -- like mine -- are unlikely to ever get below zero even in the coldest weather, because they're sitting on top of a metal plate held around +4C by the water two feet down -- water colder than this rises and freezes on the surface.

[MtB]

27 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I do quite like the idea of the automatic heating - you put it on charge and if it’s too cold, the charge goes to the heater. That said, we have never had the batteries go below zero. We do have manually activated heating but I’ve never really needed to use it.

 

I have one of the Lifebatteries that does this. 

 

There are three temperature sensors in the battery and the JBD BMS displays all their readings. 

[rusty69]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

The marinehowto site makes some recommendations but it's US-centric, don't know about UK availability (the Epoch one is sold by Fogstar in the UK at £400 for 12V 100Ah but they're out of stock):

Interestingly, there is a comment on the 12V facebook group today referencing, I assume the guy who writes the marine how too articles, suggesting that he does not advocate the use of different type battery chemistires connected in series or parallel because they do not comply with acceptable safety standards.

 

I assume this guy is from the US.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Interestingly, there is a comment on the 12V facebook group today referencing, I assume the guy who writes the marine how too articles, suggesting that he does not advocate the use of different type battery chemistires connected in series or parallel because they do not comply with acceptable safety standards.

 

I assume this guy is from the US.

 

Yes he is, and he helped write the ABYC safety standards for LFP batteries on boats which the US marine industry (including insurers) is now using -- I believe the EU has a similar standard but I'm not sure if it's law yet or just advisory.

 

As far as the UK is concerned, who knows... 😉

Edited June 2, 2023 by IanD

[GRLMK38]

15 hours ago, IanD said:

As far as the UK is concerned, who knows... 😉

 

A technical specification is being reviewed, pending ratification by ISO. Its reference number is CEN ISO/TS 23625 (August 2022) "Small Craft - Lithium Batteries".  It is already prevalent in the UK amongst organisations associated with the safety and insurance of inland craft. I believe conversion to a full ISO standard is expected shortly.  How it will be adopted in the UK remains to be seen e.g. RCR, mandated by insurers etc....

 

The quote that some may have seen on Facebook (dismissed as b******s by some) was an extract from the TS.

[IanD]

4 hours ago, GRLMK38 said:

 

A technical specification is being reviewed, pending ratification by ISO. Its reference number is CEN ISO/TS 23625 (August 2022) "Small Craft - Lithium Batteries".  It is already prevalent in the UK amongst organisations associated with the safety and insurance of inland craft. I believe conversion to a full ISO standard is expected shortly.  How it will be adopted in the UK remains to be seen e.g. RCR, mandated by insurers etc....

 

The quote that some may have seen on Facebook (dismissed as b******s by some) was an extract from the TS.

What will really set the cat amongst the pigeons is if insurers start making how lithium batteries are installed a condition of insurance cover, which is what has happened in the US.

 

For example I'm pretty sure this excludes paralleling LFP and LA, and requires that the BMS has to warn the boater when disconnection has occurred e.g. via CANbus or Bluetooth, and even sometimes that the batteries have to be professionally installed -- or at least, certified by a professional as safe.

[GRLMK38]

15 minutes ago, IanD said:

What will really set the cat amongst the pigeons is if insurers start making how lithium batteries are installed a condition of insurance cover

 

Expect to have to provide evidence of installation by a suitably qualified person if insurers make it policy... (I mean generally, not you personally)

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

What will really set the cat amongst the pigeons is if insurers start making how lithium batteries are installed a condition of insurance cover, which is what has happened in the US.

 

For example I'm pretty sure this excludes paralleling LFP and LA, and requires that the BMS has to warn the boater when disconnection has occurred e.g. via CANbus or Bluetooth, and even sometimes that the batteries have to be professionally installed -- or at least, certified by a professional as safe.

It’s a shame they don’t differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li chemistries. That shows they don’t really understand it! My own system does all the things they mention but of course it has never been tested to one of the standards mentioned, and I doubt very much whether many or any commercial BMSs have either.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

It’s a shame they don’t differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li chemistries. That shows they don’t really understand it! My own system does all the things they mention but of course it has never been tested to one of the standards mentioned, and I doubt very much whether many or any commercial BMSs have either.

I haven't read the standards, but AFAIK they *do* distinguish between LFP and other more dangerous lithium chemistries -- that was certainly what Rod Collins (the marinehowto guy) implied...

 

I also don't believe the standards say "this is exactly how you must install the batteries", they specify some things that are not acceptable (e.g. parallel connection of LA and LFP?) but otherwise say they have to be either installed or inspected/passed by a suitably qualified professional, especially in the case of DIY installations. A remote alarm to the boater for disconnection/overvoltage is (I believe) mandatory.

3 hours ago, GRLMK38 said:

 

Expect to have to provide evidence of installation by a suitably qualified person if insurers make it policy... (I mean generally, not you personally)

Or that the installation has been checked over and passed as good by a suitably quilified person -- otherwise all DIY installations would be banned...

[MtB]

I suspect this will only apply to comprehensive insurance.

 

I effectively self-insure. I only buy the cheapest third party I can find in order to get a license, so will probably be able to continue with my LA/LFP parallel installations which work Just Fine. 

 

 

[nicknorman]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

I haven't read the standards, but AFAIK they *do* distinguish between LFP and other more dangerous lithium chemistries -- that was certainly what Rod Collins (the marinehowto guy) implied...

 

I also don't believe the standards say "this is exactly how you must install the batteries", they specify some things that are not acceptable (e.g. parallel connection of LA and LFP?) but otherwise say they have to be either installed or inspected/passed by a suitably qualified professional, especially in the case of DIY installations. A remote alarm to the boater for disconnection/overvoltage is (I believe) mandatory.

Or that the installation has been checked over and passed as good by a suitably quilified person -- otherwise all DIY installations would be banned...

But what is meant by “a suitably qualified professional”. Do such things actually exist? What exactly is the specified qualification? Does the qualification (a piece of paper) mean they have any idea what the actual safety issues are?

 

And while we’re at it, although I don’t personally subscribe to the Li in parallel with LA thing, what exactly is the danger in such an installation?