Starting an engine that hasn't turned over in months

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Pete Morrison said:

Have i done it some mischief by disassembling the output pipe as shown in the photo? I removed the first union between the injection pump and the nut of the output pipe to the first cylinder. There was a little spring in the union. in the pool of fuel in the hole the union came out of, there was a little bit of dirt.

 

Loosening the nuts on the top of the cylinders, where the fuel pipes enter. Then cranking the little thumb pump on the fuel lift pump under the fuel filter. I normally do this when servicing the engine and replacing the fuel filter. I was attempting this now to try to understand what is keeping the engine from starting - and it seems like fuel is not reaching the cylinders because I cant get it to bleed from the 3rd and 4th cylinders.

 

Battery is full, cranking for 1 minute - have tried 20 or 30 times with a mains charger / boost charger attached. Speed is set to full, but i think there might be something off with where it is connected to the pump. I'll take a photo shor

Is this a screw on the injector pump (which I called the distributor)

 

Fuel dripped out of the hole where I removed the injector union, and when I pumped the thumb pump fuel did spurt out.

 

Re bleed screw or bleed union where fuel and air can return to the tank, making itself bleeding, but I can only see i pipe, the feed from the fuel filter. If the pump can vent any air in it then it will take a fair bit of cranking to purge the pimps and pipes.

 

Unless the Japanese have a new design of injector pump the there are delivery valves under the union that allows the injector pipe union to screw onto the delivery valve holders in the pump. You should not take these out, but it sounds as if you may have done so. The delivery valve normally prevents the priming lever getting fuel past that valve so I don't understand what    you are saying is happening

 

[Pete Morrison]

Here are two extra photos of the whole fuel system, hopefully this will help me explain better.

 

Some background.  Haven't started engine since the winter. I heated engine with a fan heater, charged battery fully with mains, and set the charger to "jump start" (80A booster). Cranking the engine, didn't do anything.

 

So I think maybe it's fuel. So first, I loosen 6, 7, 8, 9 on top of the cylinders. Pump the lift pump 4. No fuel comes out.

 

So because my fuel had been running a bit low, I stick 40 litres in the 230 litre tank from gerry cans. I think maybe there is some gunk blocking the fuel lines, probably in the filter?

 

I loosen the fuel water separator, fuel pours out. Then I loosen the fuel filter. Fuel pours out. So problem seems to be between the filter and cylinders.

 

So then I loosen #3 - inlet to the injector pump. Fuel spurts out, especially if I pump #4.

 

Then I loosen #1 - outlet to the injector pump, first cylinder. No fuel.

 

Aha. Problem between #3 and #1.

 

So with some difficulty I loosen and remove the union #2. Fuel comes out of the "hole" left where 2 came out. Pumping 4, and more fuel comes.

 

I then reconnect everything and loosen 6,7,8,9 again, one at a time, and pump 4 each time. Fuel comes out of 7 (second cylinder) and a little bit out of 6 (first cyllinder), but 8 and 9 are totally dry.

 

I just added an arrow to 5 because it seems odd - that particular lever is sprung, but not actually connected to anything. Has a part fallen off? The sprung lever to the left of 5 must be the throttle, which I have ensured is open full.

 

Normally, by the way, I only ever touch 6,7,8,9. When I service the engine, I replace the fuel filter, then bleed from each of those valves. As you say, the beta 38 is self bleeding so it's not strictly necessary but I do find the engine starts quicker after a fuel filter replacement if I do this bleeding.

[ditchcrawler]

Fuel wont come out of 6-9 operating the lift pump with your thumb, It needs the engine cranking likewise 1

 

[Pete Morrison]

37 minutes ago, David Mack said:

You haven't got a separate engine stop knob/lever pulled out have you?

😳

 

This could be it...

 

There is a residual current draw and when I press the "stop" button, nothing happens when normally i can hear a click.

 

Is it possible that the engine stop has gotten stuck in the "on" position? A burned out relay or the like?

 

I don't understand how the engine stop actually works... Any idea how I could locate the unit that does the stopping?

 

 

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Fuel wont come out of 6-9 operating the lift pump with your thumb, It needs the engine cranking likewise 1

 

Right, i might be misremembering, maybe I open these and crank the engine to get them to bleed?

 

Have i messed anything up by removing the Union at (2)? Anything I can do to make it better?

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Pete Morrison said:

😳

 

 

 

Have i messed anything up by removing the Union at (2)? Anything I can do to make it better?

 

 

I was always told / taught that you never remove (your) No2.

1,3,6,7,8,9, can be loosened and tightened when fuel starts to flow

 

Loosen the brass nut on the outlet of the pump (No4) and pump it, if fuel comes out its working.

Edited April 7 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

24 minutes ago, Pete Morrison said:

Then I loosen #1 - outlet to the injector pump, first cylinder. No fuel.

 

Aha. Problem between #3 and #1.

 

So with some difficulty I loosen and remove the union #2. Fuel comes out of the "hole" left where 2 came out. Pumping 4, and more fuel comes.

#1 is a union. #2 is not, it is the fuel delivery valve and not something that should be touched.

With fuel coming out at #3 when you work the fuel pump, you should retighten #3 then open all of #6-9. Crank the engine at full throttle - you just first get a mixture of bubbles and fuel and then neat fuel coming out of #6-9. Only when you have neat fuel from at least 2 of the connections should you tighten them and crank again.

6 minutes ago, Pete Morrison said:

Have i messed anything up by removing the Union at (2)? Anything I can do to make it better?

If you have reassembled it correctly and not let any dirt get in you should be OK. Otherwise it may need sorting professionally. But that isn't your main problem. You should still be able to get the engine to start and run (roughly) on the other three cylinders.

[Tony Brooks]

As I said, you removed the delivery valve holder (2).

 

It may be just your arrows but 6,7,8 & 9 look as if they are pointing to the thin nuts securing the leak off pipe banjos to the injector bodies, not the injector pipe to the injector.

 

I think 5 is a fitting for a manual stop control, but you have an electrical solenoid in the back of the pump.

 

How many times is it now that you have been told that to get fuel from the injector pipes you need to be spinning the engine. I think you are confusing yourself by thinking the priming lever can make fuel exit the injector pipes.  Lift pump pressure (priming lever) = about 6psi. Delivery to injector pipe to make the delivery valve lift = about 135 atm (bar) = over 2000 psi

As long as the delivery valve and holder went back scrupulously clean with no dirt or grit, I am sure it will be OK.

The stop solenoid is probably the cylindrical thing stuck out the back of the pump on the left of photo

 

Find where the wires(s) are connected and simply disconnect it/them. That will disconnect it from a possibly stuck stop switch/button.

Edited April 7 by Tony Brooks

[Tracy D'arth]

You loosen all the injector pipes at the same time!  Not one at a time! Crank the engine till they are spitting fuel, not air and tighten them WHILST STILL CRANKING.  Engine will start providing you do not have tha stop lever in the stop position!

[Pete Morrison]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Loosen the brass nut on the outlet of the pump (No4) and pump it, if fuel comes out its working.

Fuel comes out.

 

21 minutes ago, David Mack said:

With fuel coming out at #3 when you work the fuel pump, you should retighten #3 then open all of #6-9. Crank the engine at full throttle - you just first get a mixture of bubbles and fuel and then neat fuel coming out of #6-9. Only when you have neat fuel from at least 2 of the connections should you tighten them and crank again.

I did this, I get fuel out of 6/7 (first two cylinders) but not 8/9.

 

21 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If you have reassembled it correctly and not let any dirt get in you should be OK

I think i probably got dirt in. 🤒

 

28 minutes ago, Pete Morrison said:

😳

 

This could be it...

 

There is a residual current draw and when I press the "stop" button, nothing happens when normally i can hear a click.

 

Is it possible that the engine stop has gotten stuck in the "on" position? A burned out relay or the like?

 

I don't understand how the engine stop actually works... Any idea how I could locate the unit that does the stopping?

Fuel system maybe a red herring.

 

The engine stop was stuck in the "on" position.

 

I have now disconnected the wires that go to the engine stop by pulling the spade connectors off of the button. If I touch them to the button there are sparks so i think the button is broken in the "on" position (which stops the engine).

 

However even now that I have totally disconnected the engine stop button, the engine still won't start.

[Tracy D'arth]

You loosen all the injector pipes at the same time!  Not one at a time! Crank the engine till they are spitting fuel, not air and tighten them WHILST STILL CRANKING.  Engine will start providing you do not have tha stop lever in the stop position!

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Pete Morrison said:

However even now that I have totally disconnected the engine stop button, the engine still won't start.

 

I think that just loosening / removing random pipe fittings, pulling wires off the stop button, shorting out the wires , is not only going to get you nowhere, you will make the situation worse and make fault finding very difficult.

 

Maybe you should call in someone who knows what they are doing before you do something that causes a serious (expensive) problem. (it could already be too late for the injector block).

Edited April 7 by Alan de Enfield

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

You loosen all the injector pipes at the same time!  Not one at a time! Crank the engine till they are spitting fuel, not air and tighten them WHILST STILL CRANKING.  Engine will start providing you do not have tha stop lever in the stop position!

If the stop solenoid has been powered for a long time, the solenoid could be burnt out and the spindle in the middle stuck in the stop position by the burnt plastic. It should pull out to the run position, if not, disconnect it. It is engaged under power to stop the engine.

Edited April 7 by Tracy D'arth

[Pete Morrison]

47 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think that just loosening / removing random pipe fittings, pulling wires off the stop button, shorting out the wires , is not only going to get you nowhere, you will make the situation worse and make fault finding very difficult.

"Random"?? I think I have been quite systematic in the destroying of my engine, thank you very much! 😂 I was working forwards and backwards from where I could find fuel in the line - it's a pity that I didn't know that the primer pump can't push fuel past the fuel pump, BUT now I have learned something.

 

In fairness, it turns out we were all right. It was the fuel, but it was caused by the stop solenoid having burned out and stuck in the "on" position.

 

I removed the solenoid, forcibly pushed back the spindle, and replaced it. The engine is now running fine. However, the solenoid is toast. I don't suppose the solenoid is repairable? Do you know where I can get a replacement?

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

(it could already be too late for the injector block).

 

If the engine is running, can I assume that I have not done any damage? or should I have it checked out by someone competent? What sort of maintenance do these injector blocks require?

[Tracy D'arth]

Wonderful, glad my guess was on target,

 

New solenoids from Beta, expensive. There may be other suppliers or even motor rewinders to repair.  Or fit a mechanical cable, more reliable and cheaper.

 

If its running, the injection pump is OK. No maintenance required, when it worn out or faulty its a specialist job to recondition and recalibrate it, worry not, its working.

Edited April 7 by Tracy D'arth