Vetus 4.45 alternator

[Guest]

Hia, we have a newish 4.45 m4 600hour engine and I’d like a second alternator ( not sure if needed) but most people we meet have 2. And suggest a 2 alternator set up. 
Firstly why is that?
 We’re looking into lithium also. 
Tried Vetus spares for the alternator kit, but there website is crap so looking where else I could buy the kit.
Also is this engine a 1500 or 1700cc?

Thanks 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Webomender

[Tony Brooks]

11 minutes ago, Webomender said:

Hia, we have a newish 4.45 m3 600hour engine and I’d like a second alternator ( not sure if needed) but most people we meet have 2. And suggest a 2 alternator set up. 
Firstly why is that?
 We’re looking into lithium also. 
Tried Vetus spares for the alternator kit, but there website is crap so looking where else I could buy the kit.
Also is this engine a 1500 or 1700cc?

Thanks 

 

I am going to stick me neck out here. On a mainly 12V boat with no major AC demand when out cruising I very much doubt a second alternator is vital, but learning how to actually regularly monitoring your batteries is. You can drive p to about a 90 amp alternator off a single V belt so if you have a little 45 amp alternator simply changing it for a larger output one would be cheaper and easier.

 

On a twin alternator boat with the start battery in serviceable condition the engine alternator will spend all but the first half hour of running doing diddly squat worth discussing. You would probably do better depending the money on as much solar as you can fit on the boat.

 

Now, there are caveats to the above related to how the charge splitting is done so domestic use can not flatten the start battery, but these days a simple, quality Voltage Sensitive Relay (VSR), properly wired will solve all those  and also  allow solar to charge both batteries when you are away from the boat.

 

As for the why bit, I think it boils down to two things. Marketing bullshine to people who have not bothered to educate themselves about twin alternators and the apparent fashion for electricity hungry floating cottages with all mods cons. People think two alternators will give twice the output of a single one and with much modification of the charging system and lithium batteries that may be correct. With lead acids after maybe an hour that is definitely not true, the alternators produce less and less output as the batteries charge so fitting a second alternator and modifying the charging system is very unlikely to have the effect most people think it will.

 

A second alternator will give you redundancy in the event of one alternator failing and some may think that is worth the expense. You will need an additional crankshaft pulley as well as the mounting brackets unless you want to spend your time changing and re-tensioning a single belt that two alternators are likely to shred.

 

My boat had 330Ah of batteries and a single 60 amp alternator, my last set of batteries had lasted six years when we sold it and I can't recall suffering flat batteries. I did however ensure they rarely went below 50% charged. That is a modest battery bank and alternator output, but it was a 12V boat.

[BEngo]

The advantages of a 2 alternator set up are:

You have a 'spare' alternator in the event that one fails, albeit some lash up is needed to get a charge into both battery banks;

With each alternator on it's own belt, the belt loads are reduced first thing when both banks are charging together;

The charging wiring is simpler, with less connections to cause voltage drop and there is no need for VSR, common charging relays or split charge diodes.

 

Disadvantages:

 

More bits to go wrong

More expensive

More belts, so usually there is at least one belt you can't change without dismantling another.

Most of the time one alternator is doing nothing, but the belt, bearings and fan are all still going round, wearing out and using extra fuel.

Careful design of the install  is needed so the engine can deliver the power without causing it problems- as in early Beta extra pulleys that ate the end of the crankshaft.

 

Why do you think you need another alternator?  It may be easier to fit one with more output or to get more real charge out of the one you have.

 

Research lithium very carefully.  They are potentially brilliant, but equally a potentially expensive failure.  They are not a simple drop in replacement for lead Acids.  There are two, long, and very informative threads on here, good stuff on the marine how to site and lots more good stuff out there.  Decide if you are going lithium before you fit another alternator.  You need to match the alternators' capabilities to the Lithiums.

 

Vetus yellow is only a very expensive coating. It does not change the underlying parts, which are not made by Vetus.  Try to find a dealer for the base engine, usually they are suppliers to the construction plant business, and buy your parts from them, or for generic stuff like filters look online for the number on the existing filter.  There will be loads of equivalents.  Fram, Baldwin, Coopers are all good names.

I dont know your engine, but Vetus have used Isuzu and Mitsubishi (which  I think yours is) as base engines.  Someone on here will know.

 

For an extra belt set up, if the plant  dealers cannot help then you may be forced to go to Vetus.  Have deep pockets, you will need them!

 

N

[Guest]

Thank you both. Very helpful 

[Guest]

Vetus are so hard to deal with I gave up. It’s a Mitsubishi engine I’ve been told. 

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, Webomender said:

Vetus are so hard to deal with I gave up. It’s a Mitsubishi engine I’ve been told. 

 

Were you trying to deal with Vetus directly or a dealer? I am sure Vetus little interest in dealing with retail customers but a canal dealer like Kings Lock Chandlery is likely to be more helpful AND have a far better understanding of canal boats.

[Iain_S]

Be aware that Mitsubishi alternators (as fitted to the Vetus) cost an arm and both legs, whether obtained from a Mitsubishi dealer or from Vetus. If you are looking for a spare, an aftermarket replacement would be more cost effective, although I think the wiring might need modification. Our one on a Vetus M2 energised from the "sense" wire, with the lamp being an output from the alternator.

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

with the lamp being an output from the alternator.

 

Technically not quiet, the lamp is fed from the ignition switch, and it is switched to negative by electronics inside the alternator. This means the W/L circuit should work properly on a nine diode machine. You just dispense with the sense/energize connection.

[Iain_S]

25 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Technically not quiet, the lamp is fed from the ignition switch, and it is switched to negative by electronics inside the alternator. This means the W/L circuit should work properly on a nine diode machine. You just dispense with the sense/energize connection.

Switched to positive when alternator operating, surely? Agree with the rest; an alternator with D+ would work without wiring changes.

[Tony Brooks]

31 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Switched to positive when alternator operating, surely? Agree with the rest; an alternator with D+ would work without wiring changes.

 

Not from what I can see. The positive comes from the ignition switch. If they are going to do any form of switching common sense suggests they will simply connect to negative with the engine stopped and open that circuit when an output voltage is detected. I did ask our resident specialist how it was done but the reply was along the lines of "how do you think". I agree that switching to positive would have a similar result and is how the nine diode machines extinguish the warning lamp. To be sure I would have to get hold of one on a running engine and see what happens on the alternator W/L terminal with the cable disconnected as the alternator energize

[Eeyore]

The build code will vary, but its a S4L2 base engine.

https://www.det-mitsubishi.com/sites/default/files/2020-07/Mitsubishi - Commercial Spec Sheets - Industrial Engine - Variable Speed - S4L2-Z363SPH.pdf

You will notice that the 50amp alternator shown on the brochure is replaced by a 100amp+ unit on yours.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Eeyore

[Guest]

Lovely thanks. Every thing is painted YELLOW!! so I can’t see alternator output anywhere. In future an alternator for the Mitsubishi would fit then ? V belt etc. 

thanks for your reply 

[Eeyore]

3 minutes ago, Webomender said:

Lovely thanks. Every thing is painted YELLOW!! so I can’t see alternator output anywhere. In future an alternator for the Mitsubishi would fit then ? V belt etc. 

thanks for your reply 

Best if you post a few pictures, it always helps if we can see your installation (every boat installation is different!).

[Guest]

[Guest]

Tried to send pics of name plate but saying file to large. I have no idea how to shrink file size. It’s 42hp though 😂

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 hours ago, BEngo said:

Vetus yellow is only a very expensive coating.

The yellow pigment in Vetus paint is flakes of 24ct Gold, I believe.

[Tracy D'arth]

17 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The yellow pigment in Vetus paint is flakes of 24ct Gold, I believe.

One would think so.

I have had difficulties getting these Mitsubishi alternators in the past and found that Lancashire Rotating Electrics were the best and most helpful.

There is an alternator that looks the same but has an 8mm mounting bolt through the bottom ears whereas these have a  10mm bolt. I have drilled them out and used the original spacer bush before now.

[Eeyore]

The 50amp alternators are usually Mitsubishi, the OPs is the standard Vetus Iskra 110amp (previously called a 95amp until the marketing boys got hold of it 😎)

The OPs engine already has the mounting point for a second alternator, the one with the red cable tie going through it.

Everything else can be found here https://vetus.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/341331.02-r21-2022-02-Parts-catalogus-M4.15_17_35_45-3.pdf  page 4-10 onwards.

I would recommend wiring any second alternator to a separate warning light fed from the domestic battery via an ignition controlled relay. The Vetus approach is not only expensive but also very complicated just to use the spare lamp on the panel.

Vetus have been using this 110amp alternator for many years in defiance of best practice that suggests a max of about 90amps on a single belt. The 988x10 SPZ belt needs to be very tight for it to work without slipping.

The cheapest way is to relocate the existing 110amp to the new mount where it will perform marginally better when driven by the larger additional crank pulley. A 50amp can then be fitted in the original position, this will ease the demand on the belt and reduce the loading on the water pump. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Eeyore

[Guest]

Eeyore. 
Is the additional pulley bolted to the existing crank pulley? I’m limited with front access ( for pulling gear if it’s tight) if so maybe I could get a timing gear pulley  machined so it won’t slip. I’ve tried to get my head round the front to see if the pulley is tapped. 
thanks for your link, very helpful. 

[Eeyore]

1 hour ago, Webomender said:

Is the additional pulley bolted to the existing crank pulley?

Yes

 I’ve tried to get my head round the front to see if the pulley is tapped. 

Its what camera phones were invented for 

 

[Eeyore]

Theres are some interesting typos in the Vetus parts book. The belt might be 995x10 SPZ, Same Vetus part number as the 885x10 SPZ.

Also some parts for the 110amp alternator installation are still labeled as being for the 95amp alternator.

Still a useful document providing you have the knowledge to avoid the pitfalls.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Eeyore