Alternative to a widebeam?

[Noviceboata]

Hi all,

Been looking at narrowboats as a CC for quite a while and for some reason just couldn’t get used to the narrow space. I like the idea of a wider space and as it is my first boat, and a widebeam is out of my price range I started to look at Broads cruisers (the type that are all one level and compatible with all the bridges and canals in London) For reference it is 42ft/12ft. I have had a survey done and the hull is in decent shape and I plan to give it a coat of antifowling before I put it back in the water. The engine is also running and in good shape. Inside is very livable with a mixture of 12v and 230v (will need to install an inverter) The final price of the boat is 22k and I need to make a decision before this weekend, what are your thoughts about these fiberglass boats?

[Tony Brooks]

Photo so we can try to identify it. If it is a centre cockpit with sliding canopy it will be difficult to thermally insulate and draft proof the sliding canopy. It may have a hydraulic drive so read Spicemouse's tribulations that are running at the moment.

[Noviceboata]

15 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Photo so we can try to identify it. If it is a centre cockpit with sliding canopy it will be difficult to thermally insulate and draft proof the sliding canopy. It may have a hydraulic drive so read Spicemouse's tribulations that are running at the moment.

It does have a sliding canopy and the cockpit is outside at the back of the boat (Don't have any photos showing this)

Edited June 8, 2022 by Noviceboata

[MtB]

Although a relatively trivial detail, that stove installation looks a disaster. Is that flammable kitchen worktop surrounding it that closely?

 

The trouble is, given the doubtful-looking stove installation, what else have they done in a similar manner that is less obvious? 

 

But for £22k you can't expect to be choosey.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks. I strongly suspect it has a transverse engine across the stern and a hydraulic drive.

 

It does not look as if it has had any thermal insulation added so heating costs may be higher than a better insulated boat. I think it is a Wildes (the maker) Caribbean that has been extensively altered for live aboard. If so the hull layup was very thick. The bow is not right for the ones I knew, but it looks as if it may have had a false bow added.

 

Edited to add: Unless it was one our on the Thames fleet bought it probably started life with a Perkins 410-7 or more likely a 410-8. If by some chance it was one of ours it would have started with a BMC 2.2. We are talking about a range from the late 60s, 70s

Edited June 8, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[Noviceboata]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

Although a relatively trivial detail, that stove installation looks a disaster. Is that flammable kitchen worktop surrounding it that closely?

 

The trouble is, given the doubtful-looking stove installation, what else have they done in a similar manner that is less obvious? 

 

But for £22k you can't expect to be choosey.

 

 

The trouble is, given the doubtful-looking stove installation, what else have they done in a similar manner that is less obvious? 

 

But for £22k you can't expect to be choosey.

 

Thats what I thought as well but it turns out it is a diesel heater

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Noviceboata said:

The trouble is, given the doubtful-looking stove installation, what else have they done in a similar manner that is less obvious? 

 

But for £22k you can't expect to be choosey.

 

Thats what I thought as well but it turns out it is a diesel heater

 

 

Gonna be seriously expensive to run then, in a boat like that with no insulation! And it still won't heat very nicely being enclosed like that.

 

Frankly, it looks terrible as a year-round liveaboard. Fine for summer, grim in winter. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Noviceboata said:

Thats what I thought as well but it turns out it is a diesel heater AS WELL, as the solid fuel stove.

 

 

Are you sure ?

It would not be unusual for there to be a diesel AS WELL as a solid fuel stove, Something is providing heat to those humungous radiators shown in the pictures.

 

I also doubt that the boat has much, if any, insulation.

[Athy]

5 minutes ago, Noviceboata said:

 

 

Thats what I thought as well but it turns out it is a diesel heater

That's a relief. Never having had a diesel-fired heater I don't know how hot they get, but I imagine that it's less hot than a solid-fuel stove.

That does look like a Casey Court installation, though.

[Noviceboata]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Thanks. I strongly suspect it has a transverse engine across the stern and a hydraulic drive.

It does not look as if it has had any thermal insulation added so heating costs may be higher than a better insulated boat. I think it is a Wildes (the maker) Caribbean that has been extensively altered for live aboard. If so the hull layup was very thick. The bow is not right for the ones I knew, but it looks as if it may have had a false bow added.

It has an inboard engime at the back and according to the survey it is a  GRP Bermuda Broads Cruiser Barge. That why I was looking for a boat for around 20k so I have busget to refit it later on, insulation, etc. Plan on keeping it as it is pretty much for the first year and see how I go

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Are you sure ?

It would not be unusual for there to be a diesel AS WELL as a solid fuel stove, Something is providing heat to those humungous radiators shown in the pictures.

 

I also doubt that the boat has much, if any, insulation.

You are correct, no insulation, I factored that into the price i wanted to pay. It didnt seem like a solid fuel stove as well as a diesel heater but thanks for the info, will definately check that out

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Noviceboata said:

It has an inboard engime at the back and according to the survey it is a  GRP Bermuda Broads Cruiser Barge. That why I was looking for a boat for around 20k so I have busget to refit it later on, insulation, etc. Plan on keeping it as it is pretty much for the first year and see how I go

 

I am sure that is a misdescription I think, Bermudas were a shorter version, probably about 35ft but don't hold me to that.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Noviceboata said:

It has an inboard engime at the back and according to the survey it is a  GRP Bermuda Broads Cruiser Barge. That why I was looking for a boat for around 20k so I have busget to refit it later on, insulation, etc. Plan on keeping it as it is pretty much for the first year and see how I go

 

Did the surveyor make any mention of insulation ?

 

Are you 'burning your bridges' in buying the boat, or will you retain a bricks-and-mortar property on land ?

If it is a cold Winter you will either be bankrupt trying to stay warm, an ice cube, or back on land so make sure you do have a plan B.

 

I have a GRP boat (14 foort beam) and whilst it is insulated it is colder than an insulated NB with a solid fuel fire. In the cold periods we have the eberspacher on (a thermostat) for weeks on end.

[Noviceboata]

3 minutes ago, Athy said:

That's a relief. Never having had a diesel-fired heater I don't know how hot they get, but I imagine that it's less hot than a solid-fuel stove.

That does look like a Casey Court installation, though.

To be honest I did not fully check the heating system and unless it is working efficiently and properly I plan to replace it as i know knowdays there are more efficient means

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Noviceboata said:

To be honest I did not fully check the heating system and unless it is working efficiently and properly I plan to replace it as i know knowdays there are more efficient means

 

 

If you are doing so, then take the opportunity to take all the wall linings off and add some insulation, otherwise you are no better off and whatever heat you have will just go straight ut thru' the hull.

 

I am a big supported of GRP boats (had them on and off for 40+ years) but they do need to be properly built for the type of use you plan.

No use wearing 'English Summer clothes' in Canada in December.

[blackrose]

As others have said, insulation is the big issue. A bloke I know bought a broads cruiser to live on which was fine last summer but as soon as we got into autumn he started to suffer. The proportion of single glazed windows was also an issue for heat escaping and condensation. 

[Noviceboata]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you 'burning your bridges' in buying the boat, or will you retain a bricks-and-mortar property on land ?

If it is a cold Winter you will either be bankrupt trying to stay warm, an ice cube, or back on land so make sure you do have a plan B.

 

Yes, I thought for the first winter to keep a bricks and mortar property, especially since the boat is not insulated. Plan to start the renovation after the cold weather goes away next year

3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

As others have said, insulation is the big issue. A bloke I know bought a broads cruiser to live on which was fine last summer but as soon as we got into autumn he started to suffer. The proportion of single glazed windows was also an issue for heat escaping and condensation. 

Thanks for the warning. As I mentioned I plan to keep a bricks and mortar property for the first winter and then work on the heating/insulation after that

[Noviceboata]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

If you are doing so, then take the opportunity to take all the wall linings off and add some insulation, otherwise you are no better off and whatever heat you have will just go straight ut thru' the hull.

 

I am a big supported of GRP boats (had them on and off for 40+ years) but they do need to be properly built for the type of use you plan.

No use wearing 'English Summer clothes' in Canada in December.

This sounds like great advice and I think you guys have convinced me. As we know the British weather can get pretty cool as soon as the summer ends (even before). i will immediately insulate the boat. This should have been obvious as even now, i sometimes put my halogen heater on in the mornings to warm up and we are already into summer

[Noviceboata]

45 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Edited to add: Unless it was one our on the Thames fleet bought it probably started life with a Perkins 410-7 or more likely a 410-8. If by some chance it was one of ours it would have started with a BMC 2.2. We are talking about a range from the late 60s, 70s

The survey says the engine is a twin 4-cylinder Ford Bowman engine, developing 48hp,

[blackrose]

11 minutes ago, Noviceboata said:

 

Thanks for the warning. As I mentioned I plan to keep a bricks and mortar property for the first winter and then work on the heating/insulation after that

 

Yes it's perfectly possible to take each wall or ceiling panel off and use rockwool + vapour barrier to insulate each space one by one, but you'd probably need to do something about the windows too. Lots of people use acrylic or perspex sheet (whichever is more UV resistant) attached with adhesive strip magnets as double glazing. 

[MtB]

35 minutes ago, Noviceboata said:

To be honest I did not fully check the heating system and unless it is working efficiently and properly I plan to replace it as i know knowdays there are more efficient means

 

 

Do tell what these are! 

 

 

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Noviceboata said:

The final price of the boat is 22k and I need to make a decision before this weekend, what are your thoughts about these fiberglass boats?

 

I know the price of used boats has increased, but £22K seems at the top end for an old broads cruiser. A few years ago thru used to go for about £14K or £15K. I would try to negotiate and get a couple of grand off to pay for all the work that needs doing, but that obviously depends on whether other buyers are interested. 

[Noviceboata]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

Yes it's perfectly possible to take each wall or ceiling panel off and use rockwool + vapour barrier to insulate each space one by one, but you'd probably need to do something about the windows too. Lots of people use acrylic or perspex sheet (whichever is more UV resistant) attached with adhesive strip magnets as double glazing. 

I have alot of experience insulating apartments/houses but that is a great idea to achieve the double glazing effect.

Guys thanks for the answers, it has been amazingly helpful. Another question, if I decide to rip out the heating system and install a new one (judging buy the age of the boat I beleive this is a forgone conclusion) what are the most efficient/best systems to heat a boat/provide hot water these days?

[Noviceboata]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Do tell what these are! 

 

 

What I meant to say is there is probably more efficient  means of the same type of heating system considering the one on the boat looks very old, eg, maybe an eberspacher?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Noviceboata said:

What I meant to say is there is probably more efficient  means of the same type of heating system considering the one on the boat looks very old, eg, maybe an eberspacher?

 

 

Well I asked because despite me being a heating technician, I don't know of any especially fuel-efficient new heating systems for boats and I'm always keen to learn. 

 

Burt it depends what you mean by "efficient'. To some, efficient means it gets the boat jumping hot really quickly, to others it means the heating system sips the fuel frugally and eaks it out longer than expected.  What does it mean to you? 

[Noviceboata]

6 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I know the price of used boats has increased, but £22K seems at the top end for an old broads cruiser. A few years ago thru used to go for about £14K or £15K. I would try to negotiate and get a couple of grand off to pay for all the work that needs doing, but that obviously depends on whether other buyers are interested. 

I have been looking around for these boats for so long and yes you are right, you can sometimes find A 40FT+ broads cruiser for less than 20k but they are NEVER ALL ONE LEVEL. They have a raised cockpit in the middle, etc. I wanted something as close to a widebeam  as possible without the pricetag. I still have time so if you know of any other single level 40ft+ single level broads cruisers for sale please give me a shout.

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

Burt it depends what you mean by "efficient'. To some, efficient means it gets the boat jumping hot really quickly, to others it means the heating system sips the fuel frugally and eaks it out longer than expected.  What does it mean to you? 

Maybe I mean heating the boat really qiuckly because i would like my new heating system to run on a timer so the boat is hot in winter when i arrive