LiFePO4 Lithium Batteries - the lazy way

[TheBiscuits]

I've bitten the bullet and taken the lazy route for Lithium batteries.

 

https://sterling-power.com/products/pre-order-lithium-batteries-12v-leisure-battery-5-year-warranty

 

I can't source good quality bare 3.2v cells and a beefy BMS delivered to the UK including VAT, import duty and shipping for those prices - and even if I could get close they wouldn't come with a warranty.

 

They are not quite drop in replacements, but they are very close.  Sterling insist on a battery-to-battery charger between them and an alternator or the 5 years guarantee is invalidated.  

 

The batteries include a suitably sized Daly BMS inside the case - charge at 0.6C, continuous discharge at 1.0C to 1.5C depending on which one you pick, so 300A continuous discharge from the 200Ah version.

 

I've added a 60A B2B charger and hopefully will now only need to replumb a few alternator and battery cables.

 

Discount prices for pre order, stock expected mid-February so the discount won't last much longer.

 

Spec sheet and full range here: https://sterling-power.com/collections/lithium-100ah-battery/products/lithium-batteries

 

Having been bitten by a few dubious aliexpress sellers - and having got credit card refunds - I gave up on DIY, although I was intending to use the Daly BMS as a simple solution anyway.

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

Also, Sterling currently have a few different B2B units on clearance - they are either the old case style (upgraded internals/software) or damaged cases for a bit less.

 

I don't need a pristine case and label - it's for me not a customer - and less than half the price of the shiny new ones will do me very nicely.

 

These batteries can be linked up to 48v in series and as many as you like in parallel.

[MtB]

Thanks for flagging this up Mr Biscuits, most interesting.

 

A few questions that leapt to mind and answered by reading the Sterling bumpf...

 

1) When charging from an alternator a B2B charger is needed. Is a LA battery still necessary? The answer is yes, use the starter battery. Looking at the diagram the old domestic LA bank is dispensed with and the B2B charger is powered from the starter batt, which is in turn powered/charged by the alternator.

 

2) Low temperature charge disconnect. The Daly BMS you mention being used in this LFP battery is not popular here in the UK as it does not have a low temperature charge disconnect. (The Overkill BMS is preferred here, as it has).  The Sterling spec does actually state 0 degrees C charge disconnection is included so that's good. 

 

3) How much is the B2B charger? Answer: retail price £345!!

 

But like you, I notice Sterling often have B2B sold on clearance for much less. I bought one for £60 a couple of years ago and what arrived was indistinguishable from a brand new one. 

 

 

[MtB]

One further question if I may. How are you planning to monitor the state of charge? Or are you not? 

 

It would be nice to have advance warning the BMS is about to turn the lights OFF...

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

One further question if I may. How are you planning to monitor the state of charge? Or are you not? 

 

It would be nice to have advance warning the BMS is about to turn the lights OFF...

 

These BMS have a built in voltmeter/ammeter/estimated SoC viewable over a bluetooth connection, but I'll just leave my existing battery monitor connected.

 

Hopefully I've sized the bank to get 2 or 3 days power with the solar disconnected.  As long as the sun rises tomorrow I'm hoping I don't really need to care - when the hot water runs out I'll need to run the engine for an hour or so anyway so that should chuck about another day's worth of charge in.

 

31 minutes ago, MtB said:

The Daly BMS you mention being used in this LFP battery is not popular here in the UK as it does not have a low temperature charge disconnect.

 

All the ones I was looking at do - is that based on a previous generation of the Daly?

 

[MtB]

43 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

All the ones I was looking at do - is that based on a previous generation of the Daly?

 

 

Hmmmm, I was only looking at those for sale on Amazon and eBay, and admittedly a few months ago. The ONLY one I've ever been able to find for sale with low temp cut-off is the Overkill. I'll have another look at the Dalys but I have two Overkill ones now so not really in the market for one at the mo.

[Idle Days]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

One further question if I may. How are you planning to monitor the state of charge? Or are you not? 

 

It would be nice to have advance warning the BMS is about to turn the lights OFF...

It appears that the BMS won't talk to an iPhone since the App is Android only, is this correct?

[TheBiscuits]

5 minutes ago, Idle Days said:

It appears that the BMS won't talk to an iPhone since the App is Android only, is this correct?

 

No.

 

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/smart-bms/id1519968339

[Naughty Cal]

We have one of the Sterling Amps 100ah Lithium batteries in the van.

 

It is charged from our 180 amp alternator, CBE battery charger and CBE solar controller.

 

There is a small CBE B2B charger (4 amp from memory) that connects the FLA starter to the lithium domestic battery.

 

The 100ah Sterling Amps does have the low temperature cut off. We have seen it in action a couple of times this winter when the van has been sat on the drive and temperatures have dipped below freezing.

 

 

[Naughty Cal]

The only slight issue we have with the Sterling battery is how the Daly BMS has been set up in that it only starts to recognise loads that are 2 amps and above. The majority of our loads are very small so the SOC gauge is next to useless for how we use the battery as it just isn't recognising the low power loads from the lights and the heating fans.

 

It also means that the cycle count is useless. Apparently since October we have done zero cycles. Whilst I don't suspect we have done many due to how the van has been used I would expect a couple of cycles at least.

[Dr Bob]

23 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Also, Sterling currently have a few different B2B units on clearance - they are either the old case style (upgraded internals/software) or damaged cases for a bit less.

 

I don't need a pristine case and label - it's for me not a customer - and less than half the price of the shiny new ones will do me very nicely.

 

These batteries can be linked up to 48v in series and as many as you like in parallel.

Pete,

watch out on these reconditioned units.

I bought 2 of the 60A ones at the cheap price when I got the new boat and installed them. Big problem as they overheated very easily - they take in 60A and give out 45A in power and 15A in heat. They both ran for around 30 mins then gave up as the temp was too high - the heatsinks got to +60°C. I rang Sterling and they were incredibly helpful. I took the two units over to their shop down the M5 and went into their lab. The guy tested them and said they were fine but they have been superceeded with better cooling (heat sink and ventilation) and said they were likely to overheat. They upgraded them to new ones and knocked 20% off the new price. No problems since.

They still use 15A to heat the boat but at least they have better ventilation.

Make sure you locate the B2B where it can get a good supply of cool air.

[TheBiscuits]

On 14/02/2022 at 22:29, TheBiscuits said:

Discount prices for pre order, stock expected mid-February so the discount won't last much longer.

 

Discount for pre-ordering has now gone - the new range are in stock at Sterling.

 

I'm very pleased I ordered mine on Monday night - I got the 10% discount, they shipped my order yesterday and it arrived at lunchtime today!

 

I'm resisting the urge to immediately dismantle my entire electrical system to rewire it as it's going dark and there's a storm blowing through.

 

 

[Tony1]

19 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Pete,

watch out on these reconditioned units.

I bought 2 of the 60A ones at the cheap price when I got the new boat and installed them. Big problem as they overheated very easily - they take in 60A and give out 45A in power and 15A in heat. They both ran for around 30 mins then gave up as the temp was too high - the heatsinks got to +60°C. I rang Sterling and they were incredibly helpful. I took the two units over to their shop down the M5 and went into their lab. The guy tested them and said they were fine but they have been superceeded with better cooling (heat sink and ventilation) and said they were likely to overheat. They upgraded them to new ones and knocked 20% off the new price. No problems since.

They still use 15A to heat the boat but at least they have better ventilation.

Make sure you locate the B2B where it can get a good supply of cool air.

 

I bought two of the BB1260s and had almost exactly the same problem. 

After 20-30 mins they would be very hot to the touch (the metal inside the vents was too hot to touch, so must have been close to 60 degrees), but rather than cut out completely, they would go into something like half power mode, and give about 50% of the expected current. Maybe 10 minutes later it would again go up to full output for a short while, before cutting back to about 25 amps. At the moment I observed the output current cut back to 25amps, I could hear the extra cooling fans also cutting in.

 

I emailed Sterling and explained this (I think about 6 months ago), but instead of admitting that there was an issue with them overheating, the guy was asking about my input and output voltages. In the end I gave up and set them to run at half power permanently- at least that way they will run for hours and stay cool enough that they dont trip their inner temp sensor.

 

I admire the vision that was behind this product- its very configurable (more so than any other similar B2B I could find), with a half power setting, etc.

And I admire what Sterling are trying to do for off-grid folks, boaters etc. So I dont want to be too hard on them.

But even the one I bought brand new (green label) in Aug last year still had the same overheating and high/low output cycling issue. 

 

I've found a few online forums where many users have reported very similar issues. I only wish I'd done more research before I spent £600 on these units, and I can't overlook the failure of the guy I emailed to admit to there being a common problem with them.

They've saved themselves a few hundred quid in my case by not admitting there was an issue with these units, and fobbing me off until I gave up, but they've lost a lot more potential future business, and I personally wouldn't recommend them, on the basis of the guy I emailed withholding the info that he must have had about the overheating problem. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Tony1

[Dr Bob]

3 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

 

I've found a few online forums where many users have reported very similar issues. I only wish I'd done more research before I spent £600 on these units, and I can't overlook the failure of the guy I emailed to admit to there being a common problem with them.

 

 

 

When I turned up in their offices (I made an appointment before), I was taken into their lab to watch the technician test the two reconditioned units. After 60 secs on each he pronounced that they were in good working order but he knew these were the old design and hence suffered from overheating and recommended I take new ones to overcome the problem. They openly admitted the problem and said the new design was to make the overheating better. They really shouldnt be selling the reconditioned units - of which they seem to have very many - as fit for purpose. They overheat and fail.

The new design is better but still gets too hot. Mine do the same as yours and drop power now and again but not that much - but I just dont want to 'burn' 30A of my charge power - so given up using them. Good idea but not that well implemented.

I reckon the best way to use a Sterling device is find a 2nd hand AtoB. My old one was brilliant. Sterling could design one easily to do what we need at a fraction of the price of what they charge for a new one. I'd keep an eye out for used ones for sale.

 

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

When I turned up in their offices (I made an appointment before), I was taken into their lab to watch the technician test the two reconditioned units. After 60 secs on each he pronounced that they were in good working order but he knew these were the old design and hence suffered from overheating and recommended I take new ones to overcome the problem. They openly admitted the problem and said the new design was to make the overheating better. They really shouldnt be selling the reconditioned units - of which they seem to have very many - as fit for purpose. They overheat and fail.

The new design is better but still gets too hot. Mine do the same as yours and drop power now and again but not that much - but I just dont want to 'burn' 30A of my charge power - so given up using them. Good idea but not that well implemented.

I reckon the best way to use a Sterling device is find a 2nd hand AtoB. My old one was brilliant. Sterling could design one easily to do what we need at a fraction of the price of what they charge for a new one. I'd keep an eye out for used ones for sale.

 

 

My problem with them is that I very clearly described the problem in an email, including mentioning how I heard the fans kick in as the output current throttled back, and instead of coming clean about the heat issue, the guy started asking questions about voltage. 

I spoke to Mr Sterling himself on the phone about a different thing, and you couldnt wish for a more helpful and well informed person, so I am kind of torn about them.

But in the end, if you email them describing the same issue that probably scores of other users have already asked them about, and the technical guy doesnt admit that there is an issue, you are left with very negative feelings about the company. 

That guy didn't just let me down, he let down his company, and I'm left with expensive units that can only put out half the current they are supposed to, on a continuous basis.  

I gave up my car last summer, so a trip to their HQ is going to cost more money than the solution is worth. I've just written it off as a product that did not get enough testing before they sold it. That's fair enough, they are working to budgets and timescales, and things go wrong- but to subsequently not admit to the problem is not acceptable. 

 

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I gave up my car last summer, so a trip to their HQ is going to cost more money than the solution is worth.

 

Don't you fancy doing the Droitwich Barge canal?  They are a mile and a half walk from bridge 13 ...

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Don't you fancy doing the Droitwich Barge canal?  They are a mile and a half walk from bridge 13 ...

 

The point I would make is that is that I should not have to turn up in person at their HQ in order to be told about a well-known and reported heat issue and get it resolved, when I am asking about exactly that. 

As it turned out, the full power of about 45-50 amps was probably too much for my engine alternator to put out without overheating, so for that alternator I would have had to turn the B2B down to half power anyway, but thats not really the point. 

 

 

[MarkH2159]

On 15/02/2022 at 08:21, MtB said:

Thanks for flagging this up Mr Biscuits, most interesting.

 

A few questions that leapt to mind and answered by reading the Sterling bumpf...

 

1) When charging from an alternator a B2B charger is needed. Is a LA battery still necessary? The answer is yes, use the starter battery. Looking at the diagram the old domestic LA bank is dispensed with and the B2B charger is powered from the starter batt, which is in turn powered/charged by the alternator.

 

2) Low temperature charge disconnect. The Daly BMS you mention being used in this LFP battery is not popular here in the UK as it does not have a low temperature charge disconnect. (The Overkill BMS is preferred here, as it has).  The Sterling spec does actually state 0 degrees C charge disconnection is included so that's good. 

 

3) How much is the B2B charger? Answer: retail price £345!!

 

But like you, I notice Sterling often have B2B sold on clearance for much less. I bought one for £60 a couple of years ago and what arrived was indistinguishable from a brand new one. 

 

 

My 100A Daly BMS purchased from Mr Sterling does indeed have a Low Temperature charge disconnect.

It actually has programmable

Charge High Temp Disconnect

Charge LowTemp Disconnect

Discharge High Temp Disconnect

Discharge Low Temp Disconnect

Differential Temp Protect

MOS Temp Protect

Edited February 16, 2022 by MarkH2159

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, MarkH2159 said:

My 100A Daly BMS purchased from Mr Sterling does indeed have a Low Temperature charge disconnect.

It actually has programmable

Charge High Temp Disconnect

Charge LowTemp Disconnect

Discharge High Temp Disconnect

Discharge Low Temp Disconnect

Differential Temp Protect

MOS Temp Protect

 

Interesting, thanks!

 

I just checked his website, I can't see any BMSs for sale. What did you buy exactly, and where from? 

 

Thanks...

[MarkH2159]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Interesting, thanks!

 

I just checked his website, I can't see any BMSs for sale. What did you buy exactly, and where from? 

 

Thanks...

I bought on eBay but the seller is Sterling.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Daly-12V-100A-BMS-4s-lithium-w-balance-leads-NTC-bluetooth-bundle-UK-stock-/324695653537?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

[Alistair1357]

I took a simpler route for my LiPo4 bank. I don't charge them via alternator. Solar only. And a genny for winter necessity. 

[TheBiscuits]

Guess what I was doing today ...

 

[auslander]

On 16/02/2022 at 22:28, MarkH2159 said:

My 100A Daly BMS purchased from Mr Sterling does indeed have a Low Temperature charge disconnect.

It actually has programmable

Charge High Temp Disconnect

Charge LowTemp Disconnect

Discharge High Temp Disconnect

Discharge Low Temp Disconnect

Differential Temp Protect

MOS Temp Protect

I'm running a 250A Daly BMS (with external fan) and can confirm that the low temp disconnect works as well. It has only tripped once and I had to 'reset' the unit (via the Bluetooth software) before it would accept a charge again.

[auslander]

With regards to DC to DC chargers, I purchased 2x 60A from Alibaba that are the exact same units that Renogy sells but are unbranded. FedEx shipped and received in about a week. They work great, don't pump out too much heat and have current limiters to drop them down to 30A if needed which happens to be often. I have to keep my revs up pretty high to keep up with the chargers at full output so, while cruising, I tend to have them down to 90A or 60A total when down around idle.

[MtB]

On 16/02/2022 at 22:28, MarkH2159 said:

My 100A Daly BMS purchased from Mr Sterling does indeed have a Low Temperature charge disconnect.

It actually has programmable

Charge High Temp Disconnect

Charge LowTemp Disconnect

Discharge High Temp Disconnect

Discharge Low Temp Disconnect

Differential Temp Protect

MOS Temp Protect

 

On 16/02/2022 at 22:48, MarkH2159 said:

I bought on eBay but the seller is Sterling.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Daly-12V-100A-BMS-4s-lithium-w-balance-leads-NTC-bluetooth-bundle-UK-stock-/324695653537?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

 

 

Mr Sterling's listing on ebay is sketchy and lacking in detail at best!

 

In addition to the temperature limits being user-configurable, are charge and discharge disconnect voltages user-configurable too please? 

 

Muchly thanks.