council tax

[colin1325]

hi i have read a few points about council tax can anyone give a diffinitive answer . you live aboard your boat you cruise continuously ie not longer than 14 days in one mooring . do you pay coluncil tax ??? if so who to as you probably cover several different councils in a year ??? anyone

[ChrisPy]

if you are not registered with the council as a resident at an address within their borough, then you don't pay council tax.

 

of course if you want to register wherever you travel, then the System may begin to try to register you after a delay of a few months.

[Gary Peacock]

Non of the boaters I know here pay any.

 

But it seems that the local authority tried a while a go to get one of them to pay but when they clicked how much money and connections in the legal profession this chap had they declined is offer to visit court for a definitive decision on the demand.

 

Since then they seem to have taken turn the blind eye approach!

[bottle]

Colin

 

If you are truly CCing then you will not be liable (as far as I understand) but you will require a 'registered' residence for banking,tax purposes etc.

 

You will be liable for council tax at that address.

 

In our case we will be using our daughters address and as she will already be paying full council tax, there is no further liability.

 

The places you stay when CCing are the same as if you were on holiday, you would not pay then, so you would not be liable just because you are on a boat or for instance in a touring caravan.

[carlt]

Colin

 

If you are truly CCing then you will not be liable (as far as I understand) but you will require a 'registered' residence for banking,tax purposes etc.

 

You will be liable for council tax at that address.

 

In our case we will be using our daughters address and as she will already be paying full council tax, there is no further liability.

 

The places you stay when CCing are the same as if you were on holiday, you would not pay then, so you would not be liable just because you are on a boat or for instance in a touring caravan.

There is no obligation to have a registered address for tax purposes or a bank. The inland revenue, dvla and everyone else wrote to me c/o the local post office with their blessing, though the owners would have objected to me attempting to get on the register of electors there, as you must be a resident at that address.

 

My boat was also moored in a different county to the post office which would have raised complications, too.

 

A long term moorer friend, in Rugby (who was also a BW employee) attempted to pay a proportion of the council tax (as she used very few of the services, she felt that she shouldn't pay all of it) but the council insisted it was all or nothing. I'm not sure if it was a court or ombudsman ruling but the decision was that she should pay nothing.

[Denis R]

the owners would have objected to me attempting to get on the register of electors there, as you must be a resident at that address

Don't want to wander off topic here too far Carl, but could you register a Declaration of Local Connection, or do you have to be *genuinely* homeless, however that's defined for that to be applicable?

[carlt]

Don't want to wander off topic here too far Carl, but could you register a Declaration of Local Connection, or do you have to be *genuinely* homeless, however that's defined for that to be applicable?

I never bothered but a friend of mine on an end of garden registered a Declaration of Local Connection with Banbury District Council. Though not 'homeless' all boat dwellers are classed as 'vulnerably housed', whatever that means.

[David Schweizer]

This has come up time and time again. The answer is not simple but if you live on your boat as your principal place of residence and that boat does not normally move out of the Rating Area (usually District Council or Unitary Authority Area), you are legally required to register and pay Council Tax. If however you reguolarly move between two Rating Areas, an assessment has to be made by both Rating Authorities to establish how much you are reqiuired to pay to each of them. If you continuously cruise from one area to another, the legislation becomes a bit vague.

 

If you do not live on your boat as your principal place of residence, you (or someone) will be paying Tax on the principal place of residence, you are therefore not legally liable to pay Council Tax on your boat. However, as I understand it, if your boat is permanently connected to the bank and does not move regularly, the Local Authority could try to claim that your boat is a Second Residence, and, charge you, under their "Second home" discretionary powers.

 

As far as enforcement is concerned, it has been my experience that if the boat's occupant refuses to pay Council Tax, most Local Authorities choose not to enforce the legislation, although they may threaten it. This is not turning a blind eye, but a pragmatic approach. Under current legislation the Local Authority has to meet it's own costs for legal action irrespective of whether it wins or looses, however if it looses it also has to meet the legal costs of the defendant. In most cases, the anticipated revenue collected will be less than the costs of legal action, so they choose to limit their losses.

 

It is actually a lot more complicated than I have layed out but basicly, except for expensive areas, the Local Authority will normally choose not to enforce the requirement for people living on boats permantly in one place, to pay Council Tax, but believe me thay know where those people are, and in most instances also who they are.

Edited October 17, 2007 by David Schweizer

[Nic]

There are many, usually retired, people who permanently live in caravans (e.g. sell their house and buy a "static") and would be liable for council tax. However to get around this the sites close for one month (usually over Christmas), so that residents are not liable. I think that they have to show that they are paying council tax elsewhere to qualify for exemption (e.g. putting the address of one of their children's house), but it is common practice.

 

However liveabords are supposed to pay council tax if on a permanent mooring :

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Council Tax

 

John Mann: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what criteria he has set for class R exemptions from council tax for narrow boat resident owners. [224870]

 

Mr. Raynsford: A mooring occupied by a boat which is somebody's sole or main residence is deemed to be a "dwelling" for council tax purposes and will therefore attract a council tax liability in the same way as other domestic types of property. Under class R of the Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) Order 1992 (as amended) a dwelling consisting of a mooring which is not occupied by a boat is exempt from council tax.

 

So you can have a permanent mooring so long as you move about a bit to say its unoccupied (class R is for unoccupied moorings). There is also

A ... boat is exempt if it's on a property where council tax is paid

which may apply if in a marina????

[Phil Speight]

There are many, usually retired, people who permanently live in caravans (e.g. sell their house and buy a "static") and would be liable for council tax. However to get around this the sites close for one month (usually over Christmas), so that residents are not liable. I think that they have to show that they are paying council tax elsewhere to qualify for exemption (e.g. putting the address of one of their children's house), but it is common practice.

 

However liveabords are supposed to pay council tax if on a permanent mooring :

So you can have a permanent mooring so long as you move about a bit to say its unoccupied (class R is for unoccupied moorings). There is also

which may apply if in a marina????

We pay council tax at Dadford`s Wharf because it is the place we live and we rely on the council`s good will periodically in matters relating to the work we do and with regard to local issues like vandalism etc. My gripe is that we also contriburte to the business rates as a part of our rent. It`s not the contribution I mind , after all Ian Kemp is a mate as well as a neighbour and the lease-holder and he has it to pay so I don`t mind sharing the burdenas a part of my payments to him. It`s just that I rather think the council are taxing the yard twice ! They could cause us far to much trouble thoough if we argued against their " Of course we`re within our rights " policy.

Cheers

PHIL

[ChrisPy]

....................... I think that they have to show that they are paying council tax elsewhere ....................

Or rather that they have a nominated address where they stay and where council tax is paid. The visiting parents would not normally pay the council tax themselves.

 

The point is that the tax is, or is supposed to be, on the property, not on the individual (actually there was nothing wrong with the poll tax ....................... ..................... OK, I'll get my coat).

[Sir Nibble]

(actually there was nothing wrong with the poll tax ....................... ..................... OK, I'll get my coat).

Let's not go there.

[colin1325]

yes i shall mention it to my local counciller when i see him . i reckon we should all pay double to make up for all those poor souls on the dole . come on chaps let put our hands in our pockets .

[Mr Baites]

Well a alwis pays mi cowncil tax anyrowd no mata wer I am a jus pop in tut cowncil ofice an pay on mi way thru yev gorra pay seeif ya want cops n stuf f

[carlt]

Well a alwis pays mi cowncil tax anyrowd no mata wer I am a jus pop in tut cowncil ofice an pay on mi way thru yev gorra pay seeif ya want cops n stuf f

PAYG council tax? Sounds reasonable.

[Denis R]

I think I may regret asking this, but..... If the boat owner is resident on a BW Long Term Mooring, which I believe, doesn't have planning permission for residential use, registering for Council Tax theoretically isn't possible, because the resident shouldn't be a resident there in the first place, if you see what I mean?

[Chris Lingwood]

I have heard (although have no idea how to confirm this) that council tax is only applicable to house boats. Apparently (but again I can't confirm this) the definition of a house boat requires it to be permanently fixed without the ability to move. People in Sawley marina allegedly challenged the council on this basis and the claim was dropped. The home office got involved somehow as well. This is from a guy who was involved at the time.

 

Interesting if true! But for now I'm a student and don't care

[GUMPY]

Chapter and verse here:

 

http://www.voa.gov.uk/instructions/chapter...7.htm#TopOfPage

 

Summary of Policy

6.1 The policy that the legislation is intended to achieve can be summarised as follows. Although this specifically refers to boats and moorings the same principles apply to caravans and their pitches.

 

a) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence is moored “permanently” at a mooring, then the mooring is domestic property, and both the mooring and the boat are subject to Council Tax.

 

If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence stops at a mooring and moves away for a sufficiently long period (see 6.2), and it seems that when next in use that mooring will be used by that same boat or another boat which is someone’s sole or main residence, then the mooring is domestic but the mooring only is subject to Council Tax.

 

c) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence is moored at a mooring and moves away, and it seems that when next in use the mooring will be used by a non-sole or main residence boat, then the mooring is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

 

d) If there is a mooring with no way of telling what sort of craft will be moored at it, then it is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

 

6.2 Whether occupation by a boat or caravan, used as a sole or main residence, of a mooring or pitch can be treated as sufficiently permanent is a question of fact and degree. As a general rule, where a dwelling boat or caravan occupies a mooring or pitch for a substantial period of time - such duration would usually be for 12 months or more - it should be entered in valuation list, even if it moves away for brief periods of say 2 to 4 weeks, provided it then returns to its original mooring or pitch. The question to be asked is whether the occupation can be characterised as that of a 'settler' or a 'wayfarer'. If the latter, then only the mooring or pitch should be valued.

 

6.3 Even if the sole or main resident of a caravan or boat does not have exclusive rights to a particular pitch or mooring if, in practice, the caravan or boat occupies the land with sufficient permanence it will be classed as domestic property, and the value included in the Council Tax banding.

 

 

This makes it clearer

 

http://www.voa.gov.uk/instructions/chapter...d.htm#TopOfPage

 

The following examples illustrate circumstances where boats used wholly as living accommodation may or may not be regarded as part of the hereditament together with the mooring, and therefore to be included in the Council Tax banding valuation.

 

Example 1

A couple lives in a purpose-built houseboat comprising a timber-clad building on a pontoon. They pay rent for a mooring on the river bank with its own anchor points, access way, water supply and drainage connections. The houseboat has been moored in that location for several years, although it is moved every 2 or 3 years to carry out maintenance to the pontoon.

 

The mooring is a separate hereditament because it is occupied exclusively by one boat for a period of more than 12 months. The mooring is also domestic property by virtue of s.66(4) because it is occupied by a boat which is someone's sole or main residence. Although a chattel, the houseboat can be regarded as enjoyed with the land with such permanence as to enhance its value, and should be included in the valuation for banding purposes.

 

Example 2

A family lives in a barge which has been converted to provide living accommodation. They pay rent to the riparian owner for a mooring on a river bank with its own water supply and sewage connection. During the year, the barge moves away at weekends and holidays of more than 2-4 weeks duration leaving the mooring vacant until its return.

 

The mooring is a separate hereditament because it is used exclusively by one boat during the year. When the barge is present, the mooring is domestic property by virtue of s.66(4) because it is occupied by a boat which is someone's sole or main residence. When the barge is absent, the mooring is domestic property by virtue of s.66(5) because it appears when next in use the mooring will be domestic. However, the barge is insufficiently permanent to be regarded as part of the hereditament, and the mooring only should be valued to determine the appropriate band.

 

Example 3

A man lives on a motor cruiser with living accommodation on board. He rents a berth in a marina comprising a finger pontoon at right angles to the bank with water supply and sewage pump-out. The marina operator controls access to the site and reserves a continual right to move the boat from its mooring. When the boat is absent, as it frequently is for weekends and holidays, and even though the boat owner pays rent continuously in order to reserve a berth at the site, the marina operator allows other boats to use the mooring.

 

Although the mooring is virtually in permanent use and affords self-containment to any boat with living accommodation, the cruiser owner's occupation of the mooring is non-exclusive and insufficiently permanent for him to be liable for Council Tax. The marina operator is in paramount occupation of the mooring for the purposes of his business of running a marina. If the other boats which use the mooring are also someone's sole or main residence, only the mooring would be domestic property and subject to banding. The boat itself would not be included in the valuation.

 

If the other boats which use the mooring are not someone's sole or main residence or there is no way of knowing what their use would be, the mooring will be non-domestic. If there are two or more such moorings in the marina, all the moorings and land under the control of the marina operator should be treated as one hereditament by virtue of the Multiple Moorings Regulations. The marina operator will be in permanent occupation.

 

Example 4

A couple live on a narrow boat as their sole or main residence. They pay a mooring fee to the British Waterways Board for one of several moorings along the towing path and a licence fee to be on the canal. They share a water tap with the other boats, but the nearest sewage disposal facility is some distance away. Periodically, they move the boat to dispose of sewage; and every few years the boat is taken into dry dock for essential maintenance. British Waterways Board reserves a continual right to allocate a different mooring, for example, in order to accommodate boats of different length at the site, but in practice the boat returns to the same mooring, which is not used by other boats in its absence It has a postal address and post is delivered direct to the boat.

 

The mooring is domestic property by virtue of s.66(4) and sufficiently defined as to form a separate hereditament. The boat is moored with a sufficient degree of permanence as to be enjoyed with the mooring and therefore should be regarded as part of the hereditament and be included in the valuation for banding purposes.

 

If however the separate moorings along the canal bank are not easily identified, either in the agreement with BWB or on the ground, and can vary each time a boat is moored, as the boat always returns to a different position, then the hereditament will comprise of the whole length of moorings along that part of the canal, and the rateable occupier will be the BWB. The boat will not form part of the hereditament because it lacks sufficient permanence to be enjoyed with the land.

 

If the moorings are solely occupied by boats which are the sole or residence of an individual, then there will be a single Council Tax banding of all the moorings. However, should pleasure boats also use the moorings, the moorings should be treated as a composite hereditament. In many cases a common sense view will need to be taken of the extent of the domestic and non-domestic parts, and regulation 7(1) of the Council Tax (Situation and Valuation of Dwellings) Regulations 1992 requires a band to be ascribed which reflects the value which would reasonably attributed to the domestic use. The distribution between domestic and non domestic use will therefore reflect how the market would view the use of the hereditament, if it were made available with vacant possession. The actual use of the moorings at compilation date, or a notional distribution based on the prevailing pattern of use along moorings in that locality can be adopted.

 

Where a single composite hereditament is appropriate, the non domestic part in this example will be included in the Central List assessment for BWB, and a single Council Tax band will be entered in the valuation list for the residential moorings.

 

 

Julian

Edited October 17, 2007 by idleness

[David Schweizer]

Like I said, the legislation is not simple. but having said that, it would actually be quite easy to prove that someone is living on a permanently moored boat as their sole, or principal residence, and therefore required to pay Council Tax. It is when the boat moves, or the occupant lives elsewhere for a while that the issue becomes complex.

[colin1325]

would i beright in thinking that if they can actually tie you down foer long enough you may get charged but as the bw rules say cc have to be moved within 14 days it isnt going to happen ??

[magnetman]

I'm on the electoral roll at my riverside estate in Berkshire but as my cook and my gardener are full time residents the council tax is already paid so i can legally dwell on my vessel without paying CT. Wouldn't it be better to charge per head not per house?

[NB Alnwick]

Wouldn't it be better to charge per head not per house?

 

Wow! That's original . . .

[colin1325]

changing the topic slighly about cost of live aboard can i take it that on average it will cost somewhere between 2. 5 million per year to £900. i do realise that there are somethin gs one cant do without any answers on this one

[NB Alnwick]

changing the topic slighly about cost of live aboard can i take it that on average it will cost somewhere between 2. 5 million per year to £900. i do realise that there are somethin gs one cant do without any answers on this one

 

We tried hard in 2006 but we didn't manage to spend £2.5m - if we could afford that much a year, we would expect a luxury yacht with two Kelvin K3 engines at least!

 

We did carefull analyse our own costs over a year of more or less continuously cruising and we reckon it cost us about £22,000 - for more information, you can view the original thread here.

[ChrisPy]

I have heard (although have no idea how to confirm this) that council tax is only applicable to house boats. Apparently (but again I can't confirm this) the definition of a house boat requires it to be permanently fixed without the ability to move. People in Sawley marina allegedly challenged the council on this basis and the claim was dropped. The home office got involved somehow as well. This is from a guy who was involved at the time.

 

Interesting if true! But for now I'm a student and don't care

simple solution - if you paid VAT on your boat it is not a residence.

 

if you avoided VAT because you claimed your boat is not intended for recreational use, then it is a residence.

 

Fairy Nuff ?