Propulsion Power

[Antrepat]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

If you want to install a new ready-to-go drive system (including throttle, controller, display etc) instead of building it yourself...

 

Of course you can do it cheaper if you find all the bits yourself and put them together, especially if some are second-hand -- which is what Peter did. Same applies to batteries, and battery management/protection/charging system.

 

 

No, I'm very up for assembling components myself - these firms are charging to save people having to learn enough to design it themselves, and I don't have that luxury, so I'm with Peter on this one.  It's got to be safe, though, and BSS-compliant,  I just need to do the research to understand what's available and where to look for it.  Any links or contacts welcome.

 

Quote

 Just be aware that if you're going to put all this together with an expensive (even second-hand) LiFePO4 battery bank...

 

Hahahahahaha, I've not got anything like that kind of money.  Leoch SLCAs (Lead Carbon AGMs) will probably be what I can afford.  All those paving slabs in my engine bay will have to come out or the boat might actually sink or break in half.  And then there's where to put the generator without having to sacrifice the bow as a useable area.  Imagining solutions is part of the fun, though.

 

Quote

 Have fun ?

 

Already am, if only vicariously...

[Antrepat]

4 hours ago, peterboat said:

It's a long story Google Cedric lynch and then keep on working forward from there, Agni motors were made in India, it then became saitta, but as I said Google Cedric for the full story. 

The belt drive is a gearbox because it alters the ratios increasing torque in most cases at the loss of RPM 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch_motor - yes, quite a saga.  Would be interesting to know why Lynch fell out with his own company.  Strategic (or moral) differences, perhaps.  Anyway, thanks Peter, now I see better who's actually using the technology in production devices.

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, Antrepat said:

Hahahahahaha, I've not got anything like that kind of money.

 

But you are looking at £8000-£10,000 for an on-board diesel generator.

[magnetman]

23 hours ago, dmr said:

 

Have you not noticed the huge dents in the fronts of those old working boats ? ?

 

................Dave

One or two yes but most of them don't in fact have huge dents. Specially the old horse boats. They are actually quite noticeably lacking dents if you have a look around

15 minutes ago, Antrepat said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch_motor - yes, quite a saga.  Would be interesting to know why Lynch fell out with his own company.  Strategic (or moral) differences, perhaps.  Anyway, thanks Peter, now I see better who's actually using the technology in production devices.

Cedric Lynch was ripped off by scumbags. I think the term 'moral compass' might have come into it. 

 

To be fair the Lynch motor is old hat now, made obsolete by more modern BLDC and PMAC motors. 

 

It's the brushes. You don't really want them if you can have electronic commutation instead. 

ETA and for the batteries you want tubular gel type not AGM. AGM excellent for massive discharge like starting big diesel engines but for electric drive Gel is the way to go if you are not able to do LFP batteries, which are still rather costly. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by magnetman

[peterboat]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But you are looking at £8000-£10,000 for an on-board diesel generator.

 

15 minutes ago, magnetman said:

One or two yes but most of them don't in fact have huge dents. Specially the old horse boats. They are actually quite noticeably lacking dents if you have a look around

Cedric Lynch was ripped off by scumbags. I think the term 'moral compass' might have come into it. 

 

To be fair the Lynch motor is old hat now, made obsolete by more modern BLDC and PMAC motors. 

 

It's the brushes. You don't really want them if you can have electronic commutation instead. 

ETA and for the batteries you want tubular gel type not AGM. AGM excellent for massive discharge like starting big diesel engines but for electric drive Gel is the way to go if you are not able to do LFP batteries, which are still rather costly. 

Gennys are available much cheaper Apollo duck is your friend,.

Cedric thinks his motors still have legs for cheap reliable transport as for batteries I would fit secondhand lithium before wasting my money on the other's, I have tried full traction batteries and whist they have a place (they are cheap) on a full electric boat lithium is light years ahead 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Gennys are available much cheaper Apollo duck is your friend,.

 

They are, but by the time you've bought all the ancilliaries, lifted the boat out, and had it fitted it all adds up.

 

When I was looking at installing one, it worked out that the generator was only around 50% of the 'installed cost'.

[Antrepat]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Cedric Lynch was ripped off by scumbags. I think the term 'moral compass' might have come into it. 

 

I wondered if it was something like that.  What a shame.

 

Quote

To be fair the Lynch motor is old hat now, made obsolete by more modern BLDC and PMAC motors. 

 

It's the brushes. You don't really want them if you can have electronic commutation instead. 

ETA and for the batteries you want tubular gel type not AGM. AGM excellent for massive discharge like starting big diesel engines but for electric drive Gel is the way to go if you are not able to do LFP batteries, which are still rather costly. 

 

All noted, thank you.  My primary interest is affordability.  If it's £3k vs £15k then that's the choice made for me.  I'll keep researching.

 

These were the batteries I meant: https://indd.adobe.com/view/b0cdd10b-ffcd-4482-809d-9ca09510aef3, which are described as "AGM gel", supposedly a combination of both technologies, the glass mat and the silica additive.  Interpreting these data sheets seems to be a discipline all of it's own, and I notice that in many cases they lack what I'd consider crucial information, like recommended and peak charge rates, output rating, etc.

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

They are, but by the time you've bought all the ancilliaries, lifted the boat out, and had it fitted it all adds up.

 

When I was looking at installing one, it worked out that the generator was only around 50% of the 'installed cost'.

We will see, I bought a secondhand one for 1350 squids, came with exhaust so I have bought a flexible coupling and stainless exhaust pipe. I think that a couple of hundred squids will be the lot in my case as I have all the pipework present for cooling and fuel feed from the whispergen. Labour well for me it's nowt fortunately because as we all know if it's for a boat it double plus a nought or two 

[Antrepat]

32 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But you are looking at £8000-£10,000 for an on-board diesel generator.

 

https://www.energygeneratorsales.co.uk/stephill-generator-sales/product-detail/stephill-ssdk20w-avr-20kva-16kw-welfare-cabin-diesel - £10,000

https://www.energygeneratorsales.co.uk/stephill-generator-sales/product-detail/stephill-ssd10000s-3ph-3-phase-super-silent-10kva-8kw-kubota - £5,200

https://www.generators-direct.co.uk/silent-and-diesel-generators/hyundai-dhy8000selr-diesel-generator-long-run - £1,600

 

I think I'm missing something here.  Just how much generator power is practically needed?  Surely it depends how long you want to run it for, minus any PV input in the meantime.  Assuming double these costs to install to reflect the budget you suggest, 8kW would replenish 300Ah at 48v in 2 hours, not accounting for charging losses, and that's if you can find a charger that will stomach 150A+ - the only ones I've found are designed for forklifts and do 120A.  Even a little 3kW job could do it in five, as long as you accept the compromise that it needs to start before a full cruising day is over to be done by 8pm.  Is it really true that every successful electric boat out there has an generator that could power a building site?  As I say, I think I must be missing something about the welly needed and I must not yet have stumbled across where you get 150A+ chargers.

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, Antrepat said:

 

https://www.energygeneratorsales.co.uk/stephill-generator-sales/product-detail/stephill-ssdk20w-avr-20kva-16kw-welfare-cabin-diesel - £10,000

https://www.energygeneratorsales.co.uk/stephill-generator-sales/product-detail/stephill-ssd10000s-3ph-3-phase-super-silent-10kva-8kw-kubota - £5,200

https://www.generators-direct.co.uk/silent-and-diesel-generators/hyundai-dhy8000selr-diesel-generator-long-run - £1,600

 

I think I'm missing something here.  Just how much generator power is practically needed?  Surely it depends how long you want to run it for, minus any PV input in the meantime.  Assuming double these costs to install to reflect the budget you suggest, 8kW would replenish 300Ah at 48v in 2 hours, not accounting for charging losses, and that's if you can find a charger that will stomach 150A+ - the only ones I've found are designed for forklifts and do 120A.  Even a little 3kW job could do it in five, as long as you accept the compromise that it needs to start before a full cruising day is over to be done by 8pm.  Is it really true that every successful electric boat out there has an generator that could power a building site?  As I say, I think I must be missing something about the welly needed and I must not yet have stumbled across where you get 150A+ chargers.

Have a look on apollo duck a chap sells them in brighouse I think 4-5k brand new water cooled which is handy for hot water. The ideal is a 48 volt genny charges batteries direct and would run a 48 volt inverter charger?

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, Antrepat said:

 

https://www.energygeneratorsales.co.uk/stephill-generator-sales/product-detail/stephill-ssdk20w-avr-20kva-16kw-welfare-cabin-diesel - £10,000

https://www.energygeneratorsales.co.uk/stephill-generator-sales/product-detail/stephill-ssd10000s-3ph-3-phase-super-silent-10kva-8kw-kubota - £5,200

https://www.generators-direct.co.uk/silent-and-diesel-generators/hyundai-dhy8000selr-diesel-generator-long-run - £1,600

 

I think I'm missing something here.  Just how much generator power is practically needed?  Surely it depends how long you want to run it for, minus any PV input in the meantime.  Assuming double these costs to install to reflect the budget you suggest, 8kW would replenish 300Ah at 48v in 2 hours, not accounting for charging losses, and that's if you can find a charger that will stomach 150A+ - the only ones I've found are designed for forklifts and do 120A.  Even a little 3kW job could do it in five, as long as you accept the compromise that it needs to start before a full cruising day is over to be done by 8pm.  Is it really true that every successful electric boat out there has an generator that could power a building site?  As I say, I think I must be missing something about the welly needed and I must not yet have stumbled across where you get 150A+ chargers.

 

You could maybe charge Lithiums at that rate and get them charge in 5 hours (or less) but you said that you'll be using AGMs.

You cannot charge AGMS like that and you will get the normal 'tapered' charging such that you get 90% charged within a 'few' hours but it will take another 8 (?) hours to get the last 10% into the batteries.

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You could maybe charge Lithiums at that rate and get them charge in 5 hours (or less) but you said that you'll be using AGMs.

You cannot charge AGMS like that and you will get the normal 'tapered' charging such that you get 90% charged within a 'few' hours but it will take another 8 (?) hours to get the last 10% into the batteries.

And that's why I have secondhand LifePo4s because they charge fast and don't care if they aren't fully charged 

[Antrepat]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You could maybe charge Lithiums at that rate and get them charge in 5 hours (or less) but you said that you'll be using AGMs.

You cannot charge AGMS like that and you will get the normal 'tapered' charging such that you get 90% charged within a 'few' hours but it will take another 8 (?) hours to get the last 10% into the batteries.

Noted, so what merit would there be in a £10k budget which could buy you an 8kW generator (new and installed) to provide a charge impossible for any battery other than Li even if you could get a 150A+ charger (which, as I said, the most I've seen is a 120A for forklifts which is for Lead-Acid, not Li)?

 

I didn't say I'd be using AGMs.  I said I'd identified a particular battery that seemed to be described as an AGM as affordable but I that I was open to advice and further information.

 

I know charging isn't linear up to full charge.  This whole thing is about modelling the process, which means trying to capture the parameters and function of each step to a reasonable approximation.  If I'm going to spend thousands of pounds then I want to know I'm doing it with some kind of rational, empirical basis behind it, and I'm sorry but, as much as I respect experience, rules of thumb are not good enough -  I can't afford to buy a dud.  If there's good evidence that you need a £10,000 generator to make it practicable, let's see it.  As I said, is it the case that every successful electric boat so far has had to have £10,000 worth of generator installed to make it work?

7 hours ago, peterboat said:

And that's why I have secondhand LifePo4s because they charge fast and don't care if they aren't fully charged 

Are these ex-road vehicle units?

Edited February 28, 2021 by Antrepat

[IanD]

If you can't afford lithiums then 2V flooded traction cells are probably your best option. Lead-carbon are about 2x the price for the same capacity and don't have much longer lifetime, though they have fewer issues with PSOC use. AGM and gel are likewise a lot more per kWh than traction cells, and have shorter lifetime than them or lead-carbon.

 

Just remember that with any lead-acid batteries you are going to have to run the generator far more often and for longer to charge fully and prevent sulphation, and this increase the costs for fuel and maintenance. Cheap up-front but more painful and expensive to live with.

Edited February 28, 2021 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

My comment on the last few posts is that if I were going for electric traction I would now not even consider lead acids. The full charge time and the danger of sulphation is just too great when compared with LiFePo4. I would rather stick with diesel while I saved up.

 

Of course the lithiums will require better charge control than LA would but for solar charging or generator charging lithiums win hands down once the charge control is sorted.

[peterboat]

7 hours ago, Antrepat said:

Noted, so what merit would there be in a £10k budget which could buy you an 8kW generator (new and installed) to provide a charge impossible for any battery other than Li even if you could get a 150A+ charger (which, as I said, the most I've seen is a 120A for forklifts which is for Lead-Acid, not Li)?

 

I didn't say I'd be using AGMs.  I said I'd identified a particular battery that seemed to be described as an AGM as affordable but I that I was open to advice and further information.

 

I know charging isn't linear up to full charge.  This whole thing is about modelling the process, which means trying to capture the parameters and function of each step to a reasonable approximation.  If I'm going to spend thousands of pounds then I want to know I'm doing it with some kind of rational, empirical basis behind it, and I'm sorry but, as much as I respect experience, rules of thumb are not good enough -  I can't afford to buy a dud.  If there's good evidence that you need a £10,000 generator to make it practicable, let's see it.  As I said, is it the case that every successful electric boat so far has had to have £10,000 worth of generator installed to make it work?

Are these ex-road vehicle units?

Yes my domestic bank are ex electric transit and 36 volts drive batteries ex electric bus.

I started going the electric route over 10 years ago, that's when I bought the Agni motor to build a hybrid boat. I decided that living on a narrowboat was pointless when I was on big waterways, so I sold the narrowboat and bought a widebeam. Later on I bought a broads cruiser and converted it to electric as an experiment, it worked so I did my widebeam but as a direct drive rather than a belt drive.

Now I like the belt drive as it does give you protection against propeller damage and possibly motor damage? John a friend of mine ripped his drive plate to pieces when he caught a log in his prop (that's what the drive plate is for) whilst it was inconvenient it was cheap to replace, belts are cheap to replace 

[Tony Brooks]

41 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Yes my domestic bank are ex electric transit and 36 volts drive batteries ex electric bus.

I started going the electric route over 10 years ago, that's when I bought the Agni motor to build a hybrid boat. I decided that living on a narrowboat was pointless when I was on big waterways, so I sold the narrowboat and bought a widebeam. Later on I bought a broads cruiser and converted it to electric as an experiment, it worked so I did my widebeam but as a direct drive rather than a belt drive.

Now I like the belt drive as it does give you protection against propeller damage and possibly motor damage? John a friend of mine ripped his drive plate to pieces when he caught a log in his prop (that's what the drive plate is for) whilst it was inconvenient it was cheap to replace, belts are cheap to replace 

 

I am going to disagree with the red bit. If they are then why do proper marine engines e.g. Bukh & Penta MDx not use them? It may be a subsidiary effect of having one but they are certainly not designed to rip apart. In fact, hey have fairly substantial metal stops to try to prevent it. Listers,  early BMCs and Self Changing Gears gearboxes don't use them.

 

They are a cost-effective way of coupling a marine gearbox to the flywheel of and automotive or industrial engine while providing damping for the torsional oscillations caused by the power strokes. They also allow for a very small misalignment between crankshaft and gearbox.

 

 

 

 

[peterboat]

37 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am going to disagree with the red bit. If they are then why do proper marine engines e.g. Bukh & Penta MDx not use them? It may be a subsidiary effect of having one but they are certainly not designed to rip apart. In fact, hey have fairly substantial metal stops to try to prevent it. Listers,  early BMCs and Self Changing Gears gearboxes don't use them.

 

They are a cost-effective way of coupling a marine gearbox to the flywheel of and automotive or industrial engine while providing damping for the torsional oscillations caused by the power strokes. They also allow for a very small misalignment between crankshaft and gearbox.

 

 

 

 

Johns plate wasnt substantial, 3 cyl Lister cant remember gearbox, it was sprung the center part that was riveted just ripped out, I honestly thought it was designed to do it and save damage to other components it looked a good engineering solution, you however have been doing boats far longer than me so you must be right

[Tony Brooks]

37 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Johns plate wasnt substantial, 3 cyl Lister cant remember gearbox, it was sprung the center part that was riveted just ripped out, I honestly thought it was designed to do it and save damage to other components it looked a good engineering solution, you however have been doing boats far longer than me so you must be right

I can tell you its not a Lister box so probably a more modern Lister with a PRM.

 

You should be fine with a belt drive but f anyone is going electric wants to protect against the prop jambing without a belt drive I would suggest looking for a solution designed for that rather than one that may or may not do what you want. I can just imagine the damaged a drive plate that does not fully break would do as bits were whirled about and flung out against whatever is around it.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I can tell you its not a Lister box so probably a more modern Lister with a PRM.

 

You should be fine with a belt drive but f anyone is going electric wants to protect against the prop jambing without a belt drive I would suggest looking for a solution designed for that rather than one that may or may not do what you want. I can just imagine the damaged a drive plate that does not fully break would do as bits were whirled about and flung out against whatever is around it.

The reason the drive plate died when the prop stopped is that diesel engines with a flywheel have a *massively* bigger moment of inertia than a direct drive electric motor and rev about twice as fast, a quick estimate says they have maybe 50x as much stored energy (at least 10x as much as the prop itself). Which is perfectly capable of breaking a drive plate or gearbox.

 

A direct drive electric motor is the other way round, it stores much less energy than the prop itself, so is very unlikely to be damaged even if the prop is.

Edited February 28, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

58 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I can tell you its not a Lister box so probably a more modern Lister with a PRM.

 

You should be fine with a belt drive but f anyone is going electric wants to protect against the prop jambing without a belt drive I would suggest looking for a solution designed for that rather than one that may or may not do what you want. I can just imagine the damaged a drive plate that does not fully break would do as bits were whirled about and flung out against whatever is around it.

Nothing modern about his Lister, it was water cooled direct injection, probably industrial with a large flywheel, I was behind them and heard it go! Had to tow them back for miles

[peterboat]

29 minutes ago, IanD said:

The reason the drive plate died when the prop stopped is that diesel engines with a flywheel have a *massively* bigger moment of inertia than a direct drive electric motor and rev about twice as fast, a quick estimate says they have maybe 50x as much stored energy (at least 10x as much as the prop itself). Which is perfectly capable of breaking a drive plate or gearbox.

 

A direct drive electric motor is the other way round, it stores much less energy than the prop itself, so is very unlikely to be damaged even if the prop is.

This is the point a Lynch motor will be spinning at 4700 ish RPM flat out geared at nearly 3 to 1, yes the belt will be a bit noisy but I dont think I will hear it in the wheelhouse and if it snaps I can fit another easily.

I have in the past bent a prop enough to be very unpleasant for the rest of the cruise, fortunately I can remove a prop through the weed hatch so not the end of the world, but I still like the idea of a weak point easily fixed

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

This is the point a Lynch motor will be spinning at 4700 ish RPM flat out geared at nearly 3 to 1, yes the belt will be a bit noisy but I dont think I will hear it in the wheelhouse and if it snaps I can fit another easily.

I have in the past bent a prop enough to be very unpleasant for the rest of the cruise, fortunately I can remove a prop through the weed hatch so not the end of the world, but I still like the idea of a weak point easily fixed

But the point is that a prop jam with a direct drive motor almost certainly won't cause any damage to the motor or any more damage to the prop than with a belt, and you don't break a belt, and it doesn't whine. Work out the numbers, it's a completely different case to a diesel...

 

You might not hear the whine in your widebeam wheelhouse, but on a narrowboat you're right on top of the motor and it is noticeable. Obviously far quieter than a diesel, but still annoying ?

Edited February 28, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

But the point is that a prop jam with a direct drive motor won't cause any damage to the motor or any more damage to the prop than with a belt, and you don't break a belt, and it doesn't whine. Work out the numbers, it's a completely different case to a diesel...

 

You might not hear the whine in your widebeam wheelhouse, but on a narrowboat you're right on top of the motor and it is noticeable. Obviously far quieter than a diesel, but still annoying ?

True Ian, but I suspect the belt will break before the prop is damaged, its only a very low stressed cam belt affair. I have had it in the broads cruiser and it was ok and another Ian has one in a trip boat and that was quiet enough as well. That was a really old ex steam cruiser converted to diesel then electric with a solar canopy, very boaty shape and on the day we were there was running on solar as it was so sunny. He uses it to do nature cruises and wants the silence to sneak up on things, it was an excellent conversion it was set up by Cedric big prop spinning slowly we had a lovely weekend

[Antrepat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

You might not hear the whine in your widebeam wheelhouse, but on a narrowboat you're right on top of the motor and it is noticeable. Obviously far quieter than a diesel, but still annoying ?

 

I think the whine of a belt drive might be the kind of compromise one would have to make if the belt drive motor were the more affordable choice compared with the direct drive ones.

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

it was an excellent conversion it was set up by Cedric big prop spinning slowly

 

Does he want to do mine?  Would same me a lot of trouble...