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Balanced Instant water heater lpg battery ignition

LUCE1923

By LUCE1923
in Boat Equipment

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nicknorman Veteran II

nicknormanDonate to Canal World

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, LUCE1923 said:

HI I am really struggling to find a balanced instant water heater for my refit, any thoughts or reccomendations very welcome.

By “balanced” I am assuming you mean “room sealed”? I think you will be struggling to find a room-sealed heater that runs on 12v. Room sealed devices need a flue fan and they are to the best of my knowledge always mains powered. You could consider a Morco EUP11RS and a small inverter to operate it. Definitely not ideal but I think perhaps as good as you will get, unless anyone else knows better...

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nicknorman Veteran II

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Posted
Posted

Yes I think it’s the same thing. Balanced flue means the flue typically has two concentric passages, one to let combustion air in, and one to let the exhaust gasses out. Such a flue arrangement doesn’t need any air from the room and thus is room-sealed. ... as I understand it, I am not a heating engineer, but google is your friend!

I found this, which makes a distinction between a balanced flue and a fanned flue, but it seems both are room sealed:

https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/flue-types-description-of-open-balanced-and-fanned-flues.38227/
 

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Alan de Enfield Veteran II

Alan de Enfield

Posted
Posted (edited)

Are you looking at a commercial vessel or a liveaboard, or a leisure vessel - there are differing rules but in all cases it is not compulsory to have a room-sealed water heater.

 

 

 

Cooking, heating, refrigerating and lighting appliances could all ignite or fuel a fire on your boat. The aim of this Part is to minimise the risk of fire and explosion caused by leaked fuel or overheating surfaces or materials. It also aims to control potential sources of ignition, such as pilot lights.

The provisions of Part 8 in the 2002 BSS Standards are mandatory for non-private boats where applicable.

Making sure appliances can automatically cut off the fuel supply if the flame fails, and that appliances with naked flames are turned off and automatic ignition systems disabled before taking fuel onboard, particularly petrol, will help reduce the risks of a fire or explosion.

Inadequate ventilation has been the cause of avoidable and tragic accidents on board boats and incomplete or inefficient combustion of gas, solid or liquid fuels can lead to a lethal build-up of carbon monoxide. You can help prevent this by making sure appliances and their fuel supplies are properly installed and serviced and the by-products of combustion are safely dispersed (see flue components, room-sealed appliances and ventilation) to the outside environment.

8b.gif

There is a growing recognition of the risks associated with the use of non room-sealed gas appliances when used in confined spaces such as boats. These risks include poisoning and suffocation to individuals on board from improperly flued and ventilated appliances. So new LPG appliances must be room sealed, except where room-sealing is not physically possible, i.e. cooking appliances.

There is one specific exception to this rule and this is for LPG instantaneous water heaters. Based on the good previous safety record of these particular appliances, and until such a time as a room-sealed direct replacement becomes easily available, British Waterways and the Environment Agency accept the continued installation of instantaneous water heaters on private boats. If you are changing your non-room sealed instantaneous water heater it's strongly recommended that you consider room sealed alternatives.

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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TheBiscuits Veteran II

TheBiscuits

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, LUCE1923 said:

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination-and-certification/non-private-boats/part-8-appliances,-flueing-ventilation/

 

read the bottom paragraph my boat has nothing in it and the bss guy has seen it so i have to comply

 

Alan must have thought it was a private boat, not a hire boat.  Are you the owner or the tenant?

2 minutes ago, LUCE1923 said:

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination-and-certification/non-private-boats/part-8-appliances,-flueing-ventilation/

 

read the bottom paragraph my boat has nothing in it and the bss guy has seen it so i have to comply

 

Alan must have thought it was a private boat, not a hire boat.  Are you the owner or the tenant?

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Alan de Enfield Veteran II

Alan de Enfield

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, LUCE1923 said:

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination-and-certification/non-private-boats/part-8-appliances,-flueing-ventilation/

 

read the bottom paragraph my boat has nothing in it and the bss guy has seen it so i have to comply

You do realise that that BSS is for NON PRIVATE boats (ie commercial working boats, hotel boats, hire boats etc)

 

As I asked earlier - what is the planned use of the boat

 

You will also note on the same page it says

 

There is one specific exception to this rule and this is for LPG instantaneous water heaters. Based on the good previous safety record of these particular appliances, and until such a time as a room-sealed direct replacement becomes easily available, British Waterways and the Environment Agency accept the continued installation of instantaneous water heaters on private boats. If you are changing your non-room sealed instantaneous water heater it's strongly recommended that you consider room sealed alternatives.

 

If you are fitting out a PRIVATE Boat the 2015 edition of the BSS is applicable.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Alan de Enfield Veteran II

Alan de Enfield

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, LUCE1923 said:

it is a private boat but the bss guy has said i have to have a room sealed boiler

i sent him a link for the one i wanted to buy and he wouldn't pass it????

Unfortunately many BSS examiners do not apply the rules - they make up their own. Did your examiner happen to have a room sealed water heater in the back of his car ?

 

YOU DO NOT NEED A ROOM SEALED WATER HEATER.

 

I would suggest that you contact the BSS office directly (ask for Rob) and tell him the name of the examiner and what you have been told.

 

Over the years I have had to report a number of rogue examiners who make up the rules to suit themselves.

 

Hopefully this exchange of posts has saved you (possibly) £1000's and the stress and worry of trying to comply with something that is not needed (and not even readily available)

 

Please come back with any more questions - the BSS have ripped off more than enough people we need to stand up to them when lies are being told.

 

If you have any more questions you can always send me a PM (Message) and I'll try to help.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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nicknorman Veteran II

nicknormanDonate to Canal World

Posted
Posted

Yes I think it will be easier to change the BSS examiner! The Recreational Craft Directive does require room sealed, but since yours isn’t a new build you are not required to comply with it, rather it falls into the “best practice” category. But if there is no suitable appliance available, then second best practice has to do!

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Alan de Enfield Veteran II

Alan de Enfield

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, LUCE1923 said:

Thank you I will do exactly that can I just but the one i posted earlier then, £229 and suits my needs

 

 

I would say 'yes' - BUT ask the guys who will be authorising your BSSC

 

Tell Rob (@BSS) which one you plan to use and get him to reply by email (assuming he says its OK) you have evidence for any future rogue examiner.

 

 

Boat Safety Scheme,
First Floor North,
Station House,
500 Elder Gate,
Milton Keynes
MK9 1BB

Tel: 0333 202 1000

 

Edit to Add : don't forget you will / may need a suitable flue kit to go with the heater.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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11MoustachioedDs Gongoozler

11MoustachioedDs

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 26/05/2020 at 17:29, nicknorman said:

You could consider a Morco EUP11RS and a small inverter to operate it. Definitely not ideal but I think perhaps as good as you will get, unless anyone else knows better...

You mentioned the Morco EUP11RS, do you have one or know anyone who does?  Any good?

 

I second the original question.  I'm fitting out a basic sailaway to live aboard and CC with.  It'll just be me on board so I'm not looking for anything too big/powerful - just something that provides enough for a shortish shower, is room-sealed and with a flue that fits under bridges.

 

LUCE1923, please would you let me know if you find a battery ignition one?  I'd be interested.  I think nicknorman might be right though, everything I've seen so far is 230V AC.  Forcali, Cointra and Ariston have room-sealed ones, all AC ignition, but as for which one might be good bet in terms of flow rate and flue I've no idea.  Anyone have one of these appliances?

Edited by 11MoustachioedDs
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Richard10002 Veteran II

Richard10002

Posted
Posted
On 26/05/2020 at 17:29, nicknorman said:

By “balanced” I am assuming you mean “room sealed”? I think you will be struggling to find a room-sealed heater that runs on 12v. Room sealed devices need a flue fan and they are to the best of my knowledge always mains powered. You could consider a Morco EUP11RS and a small inverter to operate it. Definitely not ideal but I think perhaps as good as you will get, unless anyone else knows better...

I have a room sealed Truma gas water and warm air heater, and there is only 12v available to it. It heats a very small tank of water, rather than being instantaneous, so not ideal.

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