Murso Squirrel Back boiler leak

[Kaza]

I have a Murso Squirrel solid fuel stove which has developed a leak, I assume from the back boiler. 

1. Do I need a new stove?
2. Can I replace the back boiler?
3. Can I disconnect the back boiler, if so how?

Would welcome any input from anyone with a smidgen of knowledge.

many thanks.

Kaza

[mrsmelly]

YES you can replace the boiler. Its fiddly but CAN be done without stripping stove down. I have fitted a few of these over the years always through the front door after much cursing and swearing and fiddling they eventualy drop into place. You need to drain the system down first and disconnect the pipework from the two outlets at the back top leftish of the stove.

You need to remove all stove interior, bricks, riddler etc etc to do the job.

[Kaza]

mrsmelly

Thanks for your quick response. Should I get this done professionally.  I always feel like a fish in a barrel when it comes to boatyards.  Would it be cheaper to buy a new stove?

kaza

[mrsmelly]

Just now, Kaza said:

mrsmelly

Thanks for your quick response. Should I get this done professionally.  I always feel like a fish in a barrel when it comes to boatyards.  Would it be cheaper to buy a new stove?

kaza

It is deffo cheaper to just replace the boiler than a new stove including boiler. is the stove in good condition? If its not badly corroded and the pipes come off ok then its not a hard job to do. There is of course the pissing about emptying and filling and bleeding again. Ensure you fill with water and anti freeze. Is it a pumped system?

[Higgs]

9 minutes ago, Kaza said:

mrsmelly

Thanks for your quick response. Should I get this done professionally.  I always feel like a fish in a barrel when it comes to boatyards.  Would it be cheaper to buy a new stove?

kaza

 

It's easy enough to do. The back boiler is stainless steel, and about £200.00 plus, at Midland Chandlers. You might need to hunt around for the larger spanner size needed. But, all within a DIY ability. Just fiddly. You will need to free the stove from the flue, and manoeuvre the flue out of the way. Usually for clearance to work on the back of the stove.  You may be lucky and not need to shift the flue, but I wasn't that lucky with mine. 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Higgs

[Kaza]

mrsmelly

It is a pumped system, to be honest I would prefer it without the back boiler.  I have a 70 footer with stoves at either end of the boat.  The 'cold' spot is my bedroom and personally I prefer a cold room. The hot pipes go past the back of my refrigerator and the fridge needs to work very hard to maintain the correct temperature. Would removing the boiler be possible.  Is it just a case of sealing the outlet pipes and draining the system?

Kaza

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, Kaza said:

mrsmelly

It is a pumped system, to be honest I would prefer it without the back boiler.  I have a 70 footer with stoves at either end of the boat.  The 'cold' spot is my bedroom and personally I prefer a cold room. The hot pipes go past the back of my refrigerator and the fridge needs to work very hard to maintain the correct temperature. Would removing the boiler be possible.  Is it just a case of sealing the outlet pipes and draining the system?

Kaza

 

If you don't want to use the stove, I think you have to fill it with sand - not sure on that one. 

 

 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Kaza said:

mrsmelly

It is a pumped system, to be honest I would prefer it without the back boiler.  I have a 70 footer with stoves at either end of the boat.  The 'cold' spot is my bedroom and personally I prefer a cold room. The hot pipes go past the back of my refrigerator and the fridge needs to work very hard to maintain the correct temperature. Would removing the boiler be possible.  Is it just a case of sealing the outlet pipes and draining the system?

Kaza

If you dont needi t then by all means you can rid of it. I would drain down, disconnect and remove any pipes but you could leave them in situ. You will then have to blank the whole the pipe connectors went through the back of the stove or replace the stove back, they are replaceable but can be a pig to get apart and back together. You will need a set of new firebricks also.

[David Mack]

33 minutes ago, Kaza said:

I have a Murso Squirrel solid fuel stove which has developed a leak, I assume from the back boiler. 

1. Do I need a new stove?
2. Can I replace the back boiler?
3. Can I disconnect the back boiler, if so how?

Would welcome any input from anyone with a smidgen of knowledge.

many thanks.

Kaza

Is it actually the back boiler itself which is leaking or could it be the pipe connections to the boiler?

[Kaza]

The inside of the stove below the ash pan is wet, so I assume it is internal rather than external. We started to have problems with leaks in the engine room, there was a nasty smell from the overflow tank (I think that's what it is called). We discovered it was almost empty and a leak had opened up above the water tank in the engine room. It was at this time we suddenly discovered water inside the stove at the front of the boat.

Kaza

Would it be safe to use the stove (I'M FREEZING.....) or would this make the back boiler situation worse.

Kaza

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, Kaza said:

The inside of the stove below the ash pan is wet, so I assume it is internal rather than external. We started to have problems with leaks in the engine room, there was a nasty smell from the overflow tank (I think that's what it is called). We discovered it was almost empty and a leak had opened up above the water tank in the engine room. It was at this time we suddenly discovered water inside the stove at the front of the boat.

Kaza

 

Have you been constantly topping up the expansion tank, for other reasons than the suspected leaks from the expansion tank itself?

 

 

[Kaza]

We have topped up the tank when it falls below half full.  Could it be overflowing into the stove. If this is the problem how do I stop the drop in water level in the expansion tank?

[Higgs]

7 minutes ago, Kaza said:

We have topped up the tank when it falls below half full.  Could it be overflowing into the stove. If this is the problem how do I stop the drop in water level in the expansion tank?

 

It can't overflow into the stove. However, if you overfill the expansion tank, the water will expand with heating and overflow from the expansion tank. Water in the stove could be due to rain (less likely) or a leak in the backboiler. if it is the less likely rain, you will not find the need to keep filling/topping up the expansion tank. 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Higgs

[Kaza]

I discovered that  very quickly so now ensure it is only filled to the halfway mark.

So you are saying that overfilling will not account for the water in the stove? Could it be coming down the chimney or am I clutching at straws.

Kaza

[Higgs]

7 minutes ago, Kaza said:

I discovered that  very quickly so now ensure it is only filled to the halfway mark.

So you are saying that overfilling will not account for the water in the stove? Could it be coming down the chimney or am I clutching at straws.

Kaza

 

Even if rain is able get as far as the stove, it would quickly evaporate from the heat of the stove. It is unlikely to make it as far as the stove and probably would disappear in the flue heat first. If the water is in the ash pan, it is very likely to be the back boiler. 

 

If the stove has been left cold for a while, during heavy rain spells, rain could have made it as far as the ash pan. 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Higgs

[Kaza]

 

 

 

 

Oh Joy...............................

Kaza

[BEngo]

What are you burning, and how wet is it?

I recently burned some very wet mixed ovals pretty slowly in our Squirrel and the end result was a flood round the ash pan.  I know it was the fuel cos it did it again after I put a spare boiler in. It didn't do it if the stove was run harder (but the boat was too hot!)

 

If the ash pan space gets wet with the fire out, AND the header tank level goes down then you has a leak. If the header tank does not go down then water is coming from somewhere else. Probably down the flue if the fuel is dry.

 

It is OK to use the stove pro tem provided the boiler is connected and the system is full of water.

À

If you dont want the boiler you must remove it, and will need a baffle plate and a set of no boiler firebricks.

 

 Changing the back boiler is very fiddly as Mrs melly says above.  It helps to be good at origami or rubiks cube.

 

Long term you will need to strip the stove and clean out any rust caused by the leak.  Otherwise rust wedging will cause cracking to one or more of the panels

 

N

 

 

[Higgs]

2 minutes ago, BEngo said:

What are you burning, and how wet is it? I recently burned some very wet mixed ovals

 

Yeah, that really annoys me, too. Soaking wet nuts. 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Higgs

[Kaza]

It doesn't appear to be the fuel.  Both the wood and the coal are bone dry. Sigh... looks like its the back boiler.

[BEngo]

Good luck.  It is a filthy job.

Lots of spares sources online.  Harworth heating and morsodirect have both given me good service in the past.

N

[Kaza]

I will give them a call. Do you think they will do call outs at this time? The world seems totally mad.

Kaza

[BWM]

11 minutes ago, Kaza said:

I will give them a call. Do you think they will do call outs at this time? The world seems totally mad.

Kaza

If you are going to pay someone to install the back boiler, the expense of that plus £230 for the boiler and a notional amount for anything else that crops up i'd suggest looking at the price of a new, straightforward squirrel. 

 You said you'd be happy to simplify and longterm you will have less to worry about and they perform better with the correct set of fire bricks and smoke diverter in place. An added bonus is the back plate is less likely to fail (which could be an issue if yours has been leaking for a while). Concrete like dust collects between back plate and boiler and bows or eventually cracks it, especially when soaked for a period of time. 

[Kaza]

Thanks for the input. I will take all of your suggestions into account and then have a stiff drink (I don't normally drink) before making my decision which way to go.

Thanks to all on the forum for their help.

Kaza

[Ex Brummie]

If you don't need the boiler, then there is no need to remove it. Disconnect the pipework and drain it. Do NOT cap the top connector to the boiler. You can cap the bottom pipe connector, and fill the boiler up with sand. This will mean you don't need to remove it and replace with a baffle or change the firebricks.

This method has been used for decades with Rayburns and Agas which have suffered a similar boiler failure. It is not necessary to fill with sand, but will help in keeping the heat where you will appreciate it most.

eta: The boiler empty will do exactly the same as a baffle in a dry stove.

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Ex Brummie

[BEngo]

The fairly thin welded boiler in a Squirrel is a wholly different thing to the substantial cast iron lump in an  Aga or Rayburn.   I would not expect it to stay in shape if it got very hot and any warping is likely to crack the back of the Squirrel, leaving it in a potentially dangerous condition. It would in any event be necessary to remove the boiler in order to properly fill it with dry sand.  At that point it is easier to do the job properly.

 

 

N