Arnot

That's the paradox! The more elaborate the panel, the more connections there are to fail and thus the more maintenance is likely - but - the more logical, documented and well laid out it it the easier the maintenance is. The optimum is somewhere on a scale between complex and simple depending on the application. Unfortunately, unless you are in mass production you never get to find out just where the optimum was until it's too late Arnot

It does look neat but I think it misses the point a bit. Panel wiring of this nature has it's place in industrial and marine control panels but is it really appropriate to a narrow boat? From the electricians point of veiw it's quite cathartic doing this sort of thing and there is a great deal of satisfaction in standing back once it is complete and admiring it. Wiring porn? Technically, this technique is more suited to systems operating at mains voltage for power circuits and lower voltages for control and monitoring circuits. For low voltage DC distribution systems where the currents are far higher, there is more to be gained by keeping wire lengths as short as sensibly possible (allowing for future maintenance) and keeping the number of connections to a minimum. DIN rail panels do not usually have these priorities. There is another reason for this sort of panel that doesn't generally apply to narrow boats either, this is that industrial scale installations almost always start up on a CAD screen (or drawing board) and are planned to the umpteenth degree before the sparky gets to spool out the first metre of wire. There are some narrow boats that are planned and executed to this degree but they are pretty rare, mainly because the extra cost of the planning doesn't really provide much benefit for the owner. My thoughts are that a narrow boat should be kept a bit simpler. The environmental conditions in the typical narrow boat often do not suit this sort of thing, it is more suited to systems that are constantly used so they rarely or never get cold or damp. The images attached, although work in progress, give the sort of idea. So, my advice is admire it by all means (and I do) but don't try to emulate it. If you pay someone else to do it it will cost a lot with little ultimate benefit. If you do it yourself, the added complexity is likely to reduce the efficiency and long term reliability. Regards Arnot

It is perfectly feasible (with the exception of the gear shift disable) and somthing that I do regularly on isolated standby generators and pumping station. However, it aint cheap... You have to modify the engine slightly so that the control unit can sense the engine speed both for controlling the starter and controlling the running speed. Yow have to have a separate time clock for out of hours inhibit. You have to have a separate fuel level switch. The good news is that this can then trigger a low fuel message on the modem so you know about it. You have to have a separate GSM or GPRS modem to transmit incidents and this can easily be bi directional so that you can remote start. It can also be hooked up to a security system which could then be used to make sure that the engine could not start if it had been triggered. So to sum up, technically interesting and feasible but commercially eye watering. At a guess 2.5K? Regards Arnot

It'a a matter of power balance and to work that out you need to know; a ) how much power the bow thruster actually uses, not the quoted specification. In practice, there are lots of things that effect this such as temperature, how much power is being sent to it (if it is a variable thrust type) and the impact the tube has on the water flow but there are other factors. This can only be found by measurement. b ) how much wou will use it both as a daily average and also the maximum in a short period. and c ) how quickly you will be able to recharge the battery that supplies it. Since you can only really guess at any of these, there isn't a useful answer that can be calculated. My suggestion is to build a box suitable for two standard 644 lorry batteries and only fit one. If it proves insufficient, just add another. You will probably find it frustrating that I once more allude to the concept of bow thrusters but honestly, if you seriously consider the costs in terms of funding, loss of space and ongoing maintenance, is the cost benefit ratio the best you can get in a new build? That money could buy a lot of things that would give you far more benefit. Regards Arnot

One fault I have come accross on BMC diesels (especially with the Lucas M45 starter) that does exhibit these symptoms is the starter earth going high resistance. The earth to the motor is through a bolt which passes through the alloy brush gear holder and then through a cast alloy cover. Over time the steel fastener, the alloy castings and the tinned brass terminal react with each other to create a high resistance barrier. To check this look for a fluctuating voltage between the cast cover and the battery negative when starting. Another clue is that the earth stud on the starter tends to warm up when attempting a start (but not always). Sometimes it can be cured by removing the lead from tha back of the starter, cleaning it and the bits that hold it on with emery, smearing it with vaseline and putting it back on again. Other times you have to take the starter apart to clean the corrosion off. If you find that the lead is tightly secured when you try it, don't be fooled! This fault actually tightens the connection mechanically by the growth of the non conductive barrier layer. Hope this helps, Regards Arnot

Very simply - an alternator is a device that converts mechanical power into electrical power. In a boat, it gets its mechanical power input from the engine via the drive belts, the electrical power it produces goes to the batteries to keep them charged. Regards Arnot

Speaking as one who repairs boats for a living, if I was going to buy a new modern narrowboat engine I would almost certianly go for the Beta 43 with the upgraded domestic alternator. As if is I think I will stick to the Ruston... Regards Arnot

There is a bit of a compatibility issue between aadvarks and some alternators, I won't bore you with the technicalities unless you suffer from insomnia. To disable the aadvark either pull the plug on the main control unit or, if it's easier, disconnect the extra wire that snake into the alternator, it's usually green. I wouldn't change the alternator as a precsutionary measure at this stage, it's far more likely to be the aadvark. If it is this problem, it tends to occur when the batteries are nearly charged and if you switch off, discharge the batteries and start up again the problem geos away for a while. If you are any where near Stone in Staffordshire I can come and have a look if you want. A loose engine connector on a Beta won't bring the buzzer on so you can rule that out. sometimes a spike in the voltage can trigger the warning systems built into the oil pressure or engine temperature guages but this is unusal and when it does happen it is usually permanent. If it is the aadvark then you could consider just disconnecting it permanently. The alternators fitted to the Beta engines are pretty dammned good as they leave the factory and unless you have an unusual battery setup or usage pattern it probably isn't helping much. Regards Arnot

You can but it's best to do it once the generator has been fitted. In unusual circumstances, the fitting process can cause the generator to lose it's polarisation. for negative earth, connect the case of the generator to negative and flash the field terminal to positive, for positive earth connect the case to positive and flash the field to negative. Regards Arnot

I work with and install a variety of battery monitoring system on a regular basis, here's my take; I use the BMV-600S a lot, I install many of these every year and maintain the electrical systems on a fleet of special vehicles that use them. They give a lot of useful and accurate information and some not so useful and not so accurate information, as long as you are prepared to accept the limitations of this type of monitor then they are excellent. One of the points missed in most postings on battery monitors is that a major benefit of this device is as a charging system monitor. The current and voltage information is very accurate and very useful if you can interpret it, I find that most boaters stuggle with this a bit at first but learn and really benefit. For some however, it remains a mystery but even for them if they do have a problem, the information I can get from the monitor on their behalf gives invaluable assistance in helping them sort any battery or charging system issues. Installation is as easy as a shunt based monitor could be really but whoever installs it really needs to understand current paths and how to make a good high current connection. The manual is pretty much a disaster, even I struggle with the finer points. If Victron even know of clarity when it comes to instructions they only use the knowledge to avoid it. The primary information such as voltage, current and power consumed are reasonably intuitive but when you go beyond this, unless you have a good understanding of batteries and charging systems it's clear as mud. Gibbo will tell you that the ampere hour counter is useless and the SOC indication is even worse and to an extent he is correct. The AH counter tells you fairly accurately how much power you have used from the highest charged point but since you won't know how much you started with this is of limited benefit. If you know how to read this in the context of the voltage and current information it is useful though. The SOC indication is based on so much guesswork it is really best ignored. If you are relatively technically savvy and can use the extra information it provides, then get one. If what you want is just a clear and accurate indication of the battery SOC then buy a Smartguage. Regards Arnot

Seconded - with feeling! Well put Gibbo... Arnot

My experience doesn't really bear this out. One point is that the ratio is very dependant on the absolute level of the bulk phase, i.e. if this is higher it finishes more quickly. The other point is more interesting in that even if the bulk level is a constant, the ratio between this and the absorbtion phase is heavily dependant on the type and condition of the battery/batteries. It's an old trick and impossible to quantify but when you deal with this sort of think regularly you realise that the relationship between bulk level, bulk time, battery capacity, battery SOC and the profile of the current curve during absorbtion reveals a great deal about the battery condition. Broadly speaking, a better battery will remain on bulk for longer and then the current will fall quickly once absorbtion has been reached. A poor battery will not accept bulk for long and then during absorbtion the current tails off very slowly. Of course there is a lot more to it than this but it defies me to explain it briefly. Regards Arnot

For reliable excitation, it is advisable to have some sort of system to energise the rotor when the engine is started but it sounds from the syptoms reported that this may already be in place. Given that the alternator charges until the batteries are up to full charge, then stops and will not cut back in, it sounds as though there is a problem with either the alternator or regulator. There are a lot of possibilities at this stage and it would probably be better to get it looked at by someone familiar with this series of alternators and thier application to boats. Regards Arnot

Reading between the lines, it seems to me that the essential problem is that you have a boat that was designed and constructed with pleasure cruising in mind. Now you are living on it you are attempting to get the electical system to meet a requirement it was not intended to fulfill. Given that you do not have a shoreline facility, your 65/55 amp alternator coupled to your wish to run your engine slowly is wholly inadequate to keep your batteries adequatley charged in three hours a day. Even twice this would be a struggle. I probably was being a bit polite on the battery capactiy thing, it’s a failing of mine… Bear in mind that it becomes uneconomic to regularly discharge normal batteries below 50% regularly so in effect your bank only has 220Ah of usable capcity. Changing your monitoring for a system that has an ampere hour counter would probably help quite a lot despite their limitations. As a rule of thumb, as a daily user, it's best to aim for a usable capacity that is about two to three times your average daily usage, in your case using leisure batteries this translates to beween 600 and 900Ah and this assumes an optimum charging regime. I appreciate that there are difficulties in installing a larger alternator to this engine but it is not impossible and I think if you want a long term solution you are just going to have to bite the bullet. Physics is sometimes inconvenient but not particularly flexible. There are some varieties of the A127 alternator that you probably have that can produce nearer 90A and if you fit the tractor regulator modification it will improve the charging significantly. However these alternators are not intended to operate under this load on a daily basis and I suspect that the elevated temperature they would run at would shorten the life span. Essentially the solution is to install something like a Leece Neville heavy duty alternator along with an appropriate drive belt system. It ought to be possible to get the power tranfer you need from twin belts and this seems feasible on your engine. Bear in mind that what you are trying to achieve is more or less a personal power station. Also that the alternator is being asked to operate as a rotary battery charger which it was not designed or constructed for. I appreciate that you are getting the bulk stage over fairly quickly but – with an alternator of this size you shouldn’t be and I suspect that this is the important clue to the problem. You need to find out why this is, there may be a wiring problem or a regulation problem. If you measure your battery voltage whilst on charge, at the point the alternator changes from bulk to absorbtion the terminal voltage should be 14.4 to 14.6 in your application, any lower and you will not be optimising the alternator you have. If this voltage is not correct, then measure the voltage between the alternator casing and it’s output terminal. If this is within the band I suggest then look for a wiring problem, if it isn’t fit the tractor regulator. After this, fitting a voltage sensetive relay would allow the alternators to parallel slightly improving the bulk charge. Fitting a separate battery array and splitting the load doesn’t essentially alter the power balance equation. Temprorarily because the extra batteries will coax a little more output rom the alternator it may alleviate the symptoms but in the longer term you will still have to change them rather quickly and the extra lifespan will be wholly offset by the extra cost of repleacement. Flooded lead acid batteries are far from dead in true professional usage, in fact there isn’t really any alternative at the moment. The sort of batteries that are normally fitted to boats are derived from vehicle applications and ill suited to the sort of regular deep cycling your are doing and you will have to accept that anything over a year is a bonus with two years being a reasonable expectation. The term “traction” in boating circles ranks alongside “low maintenance”, “maintenance free”, “heavy duty”. “professional” etc etc. However true traction batteries do exist, they are just not usually packaged in the sort of plastic box you would be familiar with, they are separate 2V cells of the appropriate capacity connected in a single series string to form a battery. This an option that is expensive initially but the extra lifespan and usable capacity makes it a far more cost effective solution in the longer term. PM me with your e-mail address for details on the real thing. Regards Arnot

It's feasible, the wiring on most engines changes slightly given availability of components at the time of build so bits of bespokeness like this are not unusual. When changing an alternator it's best to identify the terminals on the alternator from the manufacturer and identify the wires on the engine by testing them to make sure they coincide before connecting them. If it helps have a look at this. Regards Arnot

Absolutely so (providing of course the Sterling gizmo is actually working...) Just check that the battery voltage rises quickly to the selected voltage and then remains constant after that for an hour or so. Regards Arnot

The trouble with batteries and charging systems is that there are absolutes, nearlys and variables as well as a smattering of misinformation. This (when modified by the marketing men) leads to the truths, untruths, half truths and opinions everywhere. Having said this you do seem to be having more than your fair share of problems here so here’s my addition to the sum of narrowboat knowledge. Firstly I don’t think that dwelling on specific gravities will help you much in the long term. This method of testing batteries has fallen from favour over the years due to the advent of sealed batteries, AGM’s. Gel’s and a few variations on the traditional chemistry. This is not to say that it can’t be useful but you do need to know a lot about your batteries first and even then SG readings need to be taken in context. My thought it that four 110Ah batteries for a liveaboard with a fridge, computers etc etc is probably a bit on the low side. As a guesstimate I suspect your daily average usage would be in the order of 150Ah which is workable when the batteries are new but will tend to them dying quite quickly. As an alternative (or even an addition) to a Smartguage could I suggest that you have a look at the Victron BMV-600S, which is a more conventional battery monitoring system? I suspect your knowledge of electrical engineering would be able to learn more about your system from the additional information this monitor would provide. In addition, you can get an interface that allows you to use this device as a data logger along with a spare laptop. I notice that you refer to the charge current dropping from 55amp right down to 5 amps. Does this imply that 55 Amps is what you are getting as the maximum charging current? If so this seems a bit low, what sort of alternator/engine do you have fitted? Finally the batteries… I have already said that I think that you may have insufficient capacity and suspect from the charging currents stated that the charging system may be scarcely adequate. From this I infer that the three hours a day you are charging them is insufficient and that they are gradually getting flatter and flatter and a the same time sulphating. Since the consumption is staying fairly constant and the capacity is falling the causality is accelerating until the batteries are damaged beyond recovery. Can I suggest you contemplate investing is traction cells? I think that their characteristics are more suitable for your sort of usage and although the initial cost would be higher they would last a lot longer and almost certainly represent a lot better value. If you then augment these with a goodish sized alternator (probably about 150A) and a charge controller suitable for this type of cell, the time taken to restore the average daily consumption would come down to about a couple of hours. This translates to a 33% daily fuel saving! Hope this helps, Regards Arnot

I think you have mislaid your happy pills again! Arnot

Hah! The power of the forum! How nice to see a mistake prevented rather than pointed out in retrospect! Arnot PS but be aware that you may run across a BSS busy who still thinks a negative shunt should be insulated!

It's a bit difficult to be sure of a diagnosis in this sort of problem but here are my thoughts. The test results on your batteries indicate to me that you either had a batch of faulty batteries or (and more likely) there is a problem with your battery charger which has overcharged them. It is unlikely that the dry battery is a fault, it's more likely to be a symptom of something else. However I do think that all your present batteries will be badly damaged and need replacing shortly. Changing to 135Ah batteries from 110Ah ones should not have caused a problem. The fan on your battery charger cutting in more often is concerning, this would indicate that it was working harder and given that nothing else has changed it shouldn't be. There are benefits in terms of battery life to be had from optimal connection of the take off and charging leads on a bettery bank but it's difficult to see that even if this was wrong it would lead to battery failure in six months. Hope this helps, Arnot

Thanks for the warning, I will avoid the wall if I can and concentrate on making boats safe and reliable. A reasonable demonstration that a little bit of knowledge... I'm off to fix the two alternators that are fubar'd (the builder had managed to connect the sensing wire on the starter alternator to the domestic batteries - nice one!) Regards Arnot

Yes, it does work like that... The only reason for fitting a second battery would be so that the engine could still be started if the domestic battery was flattened. If the engine has a pull start then there is no good reason! The 6A charge would really take too long to recharge two batteries for the extra capacity to be of any real use. Regards Arnot

Well.. what a coincidence. I have just been out to a boat that exactly this has happened. The boat in question has a Beta 43 installed with the optional 160A alternator fitted. This morning, their dog accidentally knocked the domestic master switch off just as they were about to go into the Harecastle tunnel. Shortly after entering it, the smoke started to escape from the alternator in reasonably large quantities accompanied by the dreaded smell of burning insulation. Fortunately the owner was a seasoned boater with reasonable technical ability and had a friend on board who could rapidly take the helm whilst he made it safe, heaven only knows what would have happened otherwise... The alternator is badly damaged, possibly beyond repair, quite a few of the lights have been blown and there is still a lot of stuff to try. Come on BSS, how about a revision on the Boat Safety Manual? The risks in this instance well outweighed the alternatives. Regards Arnot

I think it probably was, I just couldn't remember when I had posted it and despite looking couldn't find it. Now we have a new format forum (and my boat is back in the water) I might try to post a document showing how to do it in more detail. Arnot

Try Beraing Boys, I use them regularly and they seem quick, efficient, reasonably priced and I have never had a problem with the quality. Regards Arnot