robkg

I have had experience of two eberspacher water heaters and most recently a webasto thermotop. If you are planning to run either of these on white diesel or kerosene then they may be alright. If you plan to run them on red diesel then expect to spend substantial amounts of time/money on keeping them servicable. From all the information and advice I have absorbed, my understanding is as follows: Whilst the legislation on white diesel has driven cleaner low sulpher fuels, red diesel has in all probability deteriorated, at least in some parts of the country. This has led to a situation where the reputation of these heaters as suitable for narrow boats is a legacy of years past and does not reflect todays situation. The only hope of getting anything close to an acceptable service interval (on red diesel), is to have an installation that does not allow the heater to run on half power for any length of time. This is achieved by fitting radiators with far more capacity than necessary to heat such an area. Then fitting a room thermostat to switch the heater on and off. This set up results in the heater running on full heat whilst trying to heat up the large radiator capacity until the boat gets warm enough for the thermostat to switch the heater off, never allowing it to run in half power mode. (Do you want acres of radiators?) More than once I have heard/read peoples suggestions of fuel additives or advice to only run them for short periods of time. These individuals may or may not be right but if you or I buy a heater sold as fit to run on red diesel the we should be able to expect it to run on red diesel for extended periods of time. I believe the air heaters sold by these two companies do not suffer from the same degree of problems as the burners are bigger and run hotter. Much of this opinion has been substantiated by an authorised main dealer for one of these companies.

Sorry Alan but I wholeheartedly disagree with the sentiment of your post. If getting 8' x 4' sheets of ply in the boat is beyond an individual then self fit out should not be considered regardless of floating or not. Fitting out on dry land offers several major advantages: If care is taken to ensure the shell is sitting level in two dimensions, then plumb lines and spirit levels can be used. Often the shell can be located closer to home, reducing travelling time. (in the garden, if feasible, is the ultimate as you can nip out for the odd hour) Road transport is offset against licence and mooring charges. Sorting out a workshop next to the shell (I bought a 20' x 8' shipping container) makes the shell far less cluttered when fitting out. It is more likely that a 240v supply can be provided for lights, heat and power tools. The temptation to "just go for a short cruise before starting" is not there. Disciplining yourself to not move the boat on to water until it is finished provides a huge incentive to get on with it. Exterior painting becomes a whole lot easier. I would advise that the first job once the shell is delivered is to construct shallow, sturdy, wide steps up to the well deck, making access as easy as possible. With respect to the pro's and con's of self fit out vs second hand professional, I think only the individual can decide, as the success of a self fit out is entirely dependent on ability, available time and enduring commitment to the project. I have fitted out two shells and wouldn't have it any other way. I get exactly what I want at a price I can afford. Furthermore I know the boats workings intimately.

Sorry to be pedantic but your class one illustration would require no effort at all as the load would send it in that direction anyway. (I know my post is irrelevant to your question, sorry)

I feel the need to balance this argument a little. A dog can't do my washing and ironing. A dog can't cook my dinner. I am not in the habit of having sex with my dog! p.s. My wife does not pee on the carpet.

I do not believe new narrowboat prices generally carry large profit margins. Having fitted out two shells, I am painfully aware of the combined total cost of all the thousands of constituent components required. By way of example, Grace is a 70' josher replica. The shell was fabricated by Roger Fuller (on a par with Graham Edgson). The engine is a Kelvin K2 restored by Seaward Engineering. The fitout including engine installation was carried out entirely by me apart from decoration and signwriting (for which I can thank Dave Moore). The fitout forward of the engine room is solid oak. She is well spec'd with equipment but nothing exceptional (no bow thruster). Although I deliberately did not keep a running total of the costs, I estimate she has cost me in the region of £80k. This figure does not include any premises overheads or labour cost for my time which I estimate equates to approx. 12-18 months full time. So for me it is easy to see how current professional prices are reasonable. (P.S. Piccies and description of Grace in last Novembers WW) I'm puzzled by your comments on steel thicknesses. Are you suggesting an issue with 10/6/4 construction? If so what is it?

OK my mistake re the temperature when it switches back to full speed, I should have written 56oC. However the point I was making remains the same, i.e. that the unit can in some cases, cycle between half and full speed without switching to circulation only. Where a system is dissipating approx. 2.5 kW, namely the heat energy lost from the radiators is similar to the energy supplied by the heater, the heater could be running for extended periods of time on half heat, emitting water at or around 60oC. Maybe this is what is happening with Spoons set up. Rob

This is not necessarily the case with all installations. It is possible to have a situation where the heater will cycle between half speed and full speed, never switching to circulation only. Take for example where the rads. are dissipating approx. 4 kW of heat. In this case the heater will start by putting 5kW in to the system until such time as the water reaches 72oC when it will switch to half speed, putting 2.5kW into the system. Now more heat energy is being dissipated than supplied so the water return temp. falls to 62oC, at which point the heater switches back to full speed.

I experienced the same thing with a thermotop C. The unit may run for long periods of time with an output temp. of approx. 60oC. (whereas my house boiler emits water at 82oC) By the time this has reached all the rads it may be a few degrees cooler. At this temperature the rads. will feel warm but definately not very hot. I found one addition that markedly improved my installation (rad temp.)was to add a secondary circulation pump. The heaters own pump is not man enough to cope with anything more than a minimum of elbows or tee's in the pipework. (although the installation manual does not inform you of this). I believe that to fully utilise the heating capability of this heater it is necessary to have much larger radiator area than one would expect. This also means that when coupled with a room thermostat, the heater will spend a much higher proportion of it's time on "full burn" then off, rather than "half burn" (which causes very rapid carboning up of the burner) (The installation manual fails to mention any of this either.)

Be slightly cautious of crane weights. Grace (70' and 2'3" draught) was declared 18.5 tonnes by the crane that lifted her on to the lorry and 21.5 tonnes by the crane that lifted her back off the lorry at the other end! (I suspect that the latter crane was closer to the mark)

Presumably if the boat is being left unattended, the pump would be switched off. Would it not be best to leave all the taps open to release any expansion caused by freezing. (depressurising the system) Does anyone know how much risk a calorifier is at if left full? Incidentally, I have never drained down in 12 years and not yet had any problems, have I just been very lucky? (boat plumbed in copper)

Having just read another thread about banning forced draught diesel heaters, can I suggest that you switch on your Eber/Webasto while you are being intimate. Just bear in mind however, foreplay is not recommended as the heater won't run long enough without breaking down!

If you were to use such a portable device, you are in effect storing bottled gas within the confines of the boat which would contravene BSS rules.

I have recently had a problem with a purchased item of boat equipment. I contacted trading standards (in fact it was consumer direct, the customer facing front for T.S.) on three occasions asking for help in recovering my money. The only help they would offer was to inform me of my rights under the Sale of Goods Act. and recommend that I attempted to recover my money through the small claims track of the courts. I asked them if they could get trading standards directly involved, but I have had no response since. In my most recent conversation with them, I informed them of another almost identical case, where the claimant had won his claim in court and where, as I understand, the judge had ruled the item unfit for purpose. They still showed no interest in my difficulties. So in my experience they are a waste of time.

I had in mind that this test was carried out to determine whether or not to treat said fender. Not afterwards in order to destroy the evidence.

Presumably if you were to hold a cigarette lighter flame briefly on the rope, you would establish whether it was synthetic (polypropylene) or natural. If it melts:- synthetic, if it burns:- natural. (don't set fire to it though!) Rob

Heaters with a self contained gas bottle are not allowed on boats as the BSS requires gas cylinders to be kept in lockers that self drain overboard. I believe gas appliances also have to have balanced flues (with the exception of cookers) although I am not entirely sure.

Thought I would offer my tuppence worth. If a boat moves from point A to point B an equivalent volume of water (equal to the displacement of the boat) will move the other way. This will apply regardless of whether there are any locks or not. All other movement of water due to lock operation is independant of boat size. I think this view is in keeping with Gibbo's assertions. Rob

Hi Chris, At a superficial level I would agree with you but the following points occur to me: 1. It is inconvenient for me to use the bridge when using the lock so I am left in a dilemma about whether to ignore the notices or not. (the notice does not say "with the exception of lock operators") 2. Just how hazardous is it to cross the gate (fitted with non slip surfaces and hand rails)? How many serious accidents occur as a result of non boaters crossing lock gates? 3. Why are BW better able to judge that any individual should not be crossing the gate than that individual is him/herself? 4. Are there any hidden dangers that people are would not be aware of without being told? If not leave the responsibility for making the decision in the hands of the individual. 5. Why should all boaters be more capable of crossing the gates than the general public? And if they are not, then to be consistent, similar notices be posted at all locks where bridges are in close proximity and the public have access? It is not that I think these notices constitute a particularly major issue in isolation, but when I come across examples of authorities feeling the need to nanny me and treat me as an idiot every day, I do get cheesed off. Rob

I think your maths has gone awry, 32000 x £600 = £19,200,000

Hi Ange, Is your loo a drop through type (i.e. does it sit on top of the holding tank) or does it have a remote holding tank (pumped macerator type)? Does it flush with clean water or recycled from the holding tank(some very old loos used to do this, not nice)? Rob

I wholeheartedly agree, Roger. Well put! I cannot help but get annoyed with the mass of rules and regs. that affect me, instigated to protect irresponible or wholly stupid individuals from the daft things they might otherwise do. By way of example (not a particularly good one, but the first to come to mind), I saw permanent BW notices on the top gates of Stoke Bruerne lock telling me not to cross the gates. Do I or anyone else need to be told this? Are these gates any less safe than those on thousands of other locks without such notices? In the unlikely event that there is a reason why it is inadvisable to cross these particular gates, I would like to have been informed of what that reason was. Rob

Yes the forced draught ones are. I am actually in the market for a 24v diesel heater at the moment. I have had experience of both Eberspacher and Webasto, so I know what these are like but I wondered if anyone has any first hand experience of other makes and would care to provide a recommendation. Sorry to go

Good move from what I have heard. (Kabola also OK I believe)

Yes thats it, thats the pump I installed also although I can't remember what I paid.

To be honest, I can't remember what I fitted without delving through my files of instruction manuals, receipts etc., but it is probably one of these that a number of chandlers are selling: Shurflo Extreme Smart Sensor variable pump (£175 from MC and for £106.16 from an american dealer) 21.6 litres per minute. Shown as 12v but mine must be a 24v version.