Inverter tripping shore power

[Captain Zim]

Hello. Is the fact my inverter has neutral earth bond on output the reason it trips shore power when dry docked? Or even when tied up once waiting to dock? I never use shorepowercso only have this problem very rarely. I forgot about it from 2 years back but it has happened again. Victron multi 3000/24/70. Charger output turned right down to 20amps. Rcd on in and out which function properly. Thanks very much. And sorry, I did search for this but couldn't find anything...

[Boaty Jo]

20 amps would trip a 16A shore supply?

Indeed some shore power supplies are limited to 10 or 6 amps.

 

Victron (and others probably) do a shore power limiter. Like the Phoenix multi control on page 4 of this brochure:

 

http://www.victronenergy.fr/upload/documents/Victron_System_Brochure_UK2.pdf

 

I may have got the wrong end of the stick here - of so, I'm sorry

[nb Innisfree]

If N/E bond is still connected it will trip shorepower RCD. Victrons, after a certain build number, should have automatic N/E disable, some like our 24-3000-70 don't have this feature so I installed a manual switch. I sometimes test the shore RCD by leaving N/E connected.

[nicknorman]

Boaty Jo, I think you are confusing 20A at 12v with 16A or whatever at 240v. 20A at 12v is around 1A at 240v.

 

Otherwise, what nb Innisfree said.

[BargeeSpud]

Could this be something as simple as installing a changeover switch to switch from inverter to shore power?

 

edited. OOPs, already mentioned!

Edited August 23, 2013 by Spuds

[smileypete]

Does it a happen soon as a load is switched on or randomly?

 

Don't overlook an NE short in the shore lead, with the lead UNPLUGGED a continuity tester will tell if the pins are isolated from each other or not, also inspect the connector wiring with the covers off and inspect the lead for damage.

 

Not sure what nbInnisfree means, did Victron at one time make a combi with passthrough and without automatic NE bond switching? If so sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[Captain Zim]

Does it a happen soon as a load is switched on or randomly?

 

Don't overlook an NE short in the shore lead, with the lead UNPLUGGED a continuity tester will tell if the pins are isolated from each other or not, also inspect the connector wiring with the covers off and inspect the lead for damage.

 

Not sure what nbInnisfree means, did Victron at one time make a combi with passthrough and without automatic NE bond switching? If so sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Yes I think they did but not sure which year it changed. My inverter was purchased around feb 2010. It happens as soon as plugged in and not at random times so I'm fairly sure all is well. The wiring is in good nick. Lead used all the time for genny so again, I know that is working. Thanks for suggestions though. I am now trying to figure out a quick way to solve it, or even, given I rarely plug in anywhere, whether it's even work solving. Probably not. I was more concerned something was broken but actually, it seems it's working as it should.

[Arthur Brown]

The "mains" as supplied by the "board" will be earth referenced by a bond between neutral and earth at the supply.

To emulate normal mains your inverter should have a N-E bond at the inverter 230v output.

 

Without ONE of these N-E bonds the usual RCD protection is impaired -ONE is necessary. However having both will cause one of the RDCs to trip in milliseconds.

 

When feeding the boat 230v system from the mains AND an inverter you need to switch something to ensure that only one N-E bond is in use.

 

Read the technical notes on the Smartgauge website

Edited August 25, 2013 by Arthur Brown

[GUMPY]

 

Not sure what nbInnisfree means, did Victron at one time make a combi with passthrough and without automatic NE bond switching? If so sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

 

 

Yes Victron built all their combis with no N>E bond at all, it existed in the software just no relay fitted nor any provision for fitting one. Edited August 25, 2013 by Loddon

[by'eck]

Yes I think they did but not sure which year it changed. My inverter was purchased around feb 2010. It happens as soon as plugged in and not at random times so I'm fairly sure all is well. The wiring is in good nick. Lead used all the time for genny so again, I know that is working. Thanks for suggestions though. I am now trying to figure out a quick way to solve it, or even, given I rarely plug in anywhere, whether it's even work solving. Probably not. I was more concerned something was broken but actually, it seems it's working as it should.

 

Pretty sure that a Victron as recently built as yours would have automatic N/E bond disconnection when inverter not working due to shore power being present.

 

As several others have suggested it sounds like the onboard N/E connection remains with shore power connected hence tripping, so maybe all is not well. This may be due to faulty ground relay stuck closed (labeled H in manual and located on left).

 

I quote from the manual:

 

Ground relay (see appendix B

With this relay (H), the neutral conductor of the AC output is grounded to the chassis when the back feed safety relay is open. This ensures the correct operation of earth leakage circuit breakers in the output. If a non-grounded output is required during inverter operation, this function must be turned off, see appendix A.

Not adjustable with DIP switches.

- Models with 50A transfer capacity only: if required an external ground relay can be connected (for a split-phase system

with a separate autotransformer).

See appendix A.

 

So its configurable under VE net software but only to completely remove N/E bond even with inverter running.

[Captain Zim]

I think the change over date was around 2009 so it may be, if mine wasn't new on the shelf that it's one of the last without. I'll have to find the serial number.

[Captain Zim]

Just had a quick look and from my limited understanding it looks like its bonded both 240v in and out. Is that right or should it just be the out? Bearing in mind I run off a suitcase genny for 240 in. Thanks

[nb Innisfree]

Just had a quick look and from my limited understanding it looks like its bonded both 240v in and out. Is that right or should it just be the out? Bearing in mind I run off a suitcase genny for 240 in. Thanks

Should just be bonded once on Victron output.

Yes Victron built all their combis with no N>E bond at all, it existed in the software just no relay fitted nor any provision for fitting one.

Auto bonding added after build xxx17xxx, deffo with a 17 in it.

[by'eck]

Just had a quick look and from my limited understanding it looks like its bonded both 240v in and out. Is that right or should it just be the out? Bearing in mind I run off a suitcase genny for 240 in. Thanks

 

The ground relay, top right in the block diagram, straps neutral to earth (Victron chassis and earth on output connections) on both AC outputs when its energised. This happens when the backfeed safety relay (shore power feed disconnect when not present) shown top left in diagram, is open.

[Captain Zim]

Binding the ac in should make it safer though, no? Considering the genny isn't grounded. Or should this come out?

[GUMPY]

Should just be bonded once on Victron output.

 

Auto bonding added after build xxx17xxx, deffo with a 17 in it.

Mine was a 17 and it didn't have the bonding, it was there in the software but no relay fitted.

[Guest]

If N/E bond is still connected it will trip shorepower RCD. Victrons, after a certain build number, should have automatic N/E disable, some like our 24-3000-70 don't have this feature so I installed a manual switch. I sometimes test the shore RCD by leaving N/E connected.

I did the same(manual switch N_E) on my Sterling so as to avoid tripping shore power (though never use it) and avoiding possible damage to generators (not for me but perhaps a future owner?) I have a label next to the switch explaining its purpose, and what mode it should be in and when.

[smileypete]

Not sure I like the sound of a manually switched NE bond, if forgot it could mean running the inverter without RCD protection effectively.

 

Makes the hair splitting over galvanic isolators seem like small beer.

 

Maybe there's a way of automating it with relays or having a warning light or buzzer if the inverter is on without the bond in place.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited August 25, 2013 by smileypete

[Arthur Brown]

There are several things to look out for, not least of which is ensuring that your inverter dpesn't power all the boats on the pontoon via your shoreline.

 

Look what automation your inverter/combi provides and also check the smartgauge website

[Boaty Jo]

Boaty Jo, I think you are confusing 20A at 12v with 16A or whatever at 240v. 20A at 12v is around 1A at 240v.

 

Otherwise, what nb Innisfree said.

 

Quite right! Apologies.

 

The answer was ok, it was the question that was wrong

[NBDensie]

My Victron Phoenix 1200 inverter/charger also causes the shore supply to trip. Its a 2007 box so may suffer from this NE problem (which I dont understand). My experience has been that it will work perhaps for some hours and then trip. Once it has tripped it continues to trip. My guess is that its a problem when the multi stage charging starts up but I have no evidence.

 

Its not something I have bothered about too much as I rarely use a shore supply, however I cant see any way round it other than buying a new inverter charger. The system has been sent to Victron for checking but they report nothing wrong. The 240V circuits on the boat have been checked, also with no problem found.

[Keeping Up]

I have recently installed a Victron for someone on their boat, and it is showing the same symptoms. It was OK for the first 24 hours but now it trips the RCD at frequent intervals.

 

Amazingly it even trips the RCD which I fitted to the output side of the Victron, can anyone make any suggestions as to how this can even be possible? Particularly as there is at the moment nothing plugged in to any of the sockets, and also it is being operated in "Charger only" mode.

 

All is fine if the Victron is removed from the equation (by pulling out the 240v input and output plugs, and plugging them together) which seems to confirm that there is no fault anywhere else.

 

In this case it is a fairly old unit, model 12/800/35, but it has spent most of its life packaged in its box.

[NBDensie]

I have recently installed a Victron for someone on their boat, and it is showing the same symptoms. It was OK for the first 24 hours but now it trips the RCD at frequent intervals.

 

Amazingly it even trips the RCD which I fitted to the output side of the Victron, can anyone make any suggestions as to how this can even be possible? Particularly as there is at the moment nothing plugged in to any of the sockets, and also it is being operated in "Charger only" mode.

 

All is fine if the Victron is removed from the equation (by pulling out the 240v input and output plugs, and plugging them together) which seems to confirm that there is no fault anywhere else.

 

In this case it is a fairly old unit, model 12/800/35, but it has spent most of its life packaged in its box.

 

Interesting. In my case it has never tripped the internal RCD. Anyway I have sent a link to this thread to Victron Energy BV in the Netherlands. If they reply with anything useful I will post it.

[NBDensie]

I have received a reply from Victron.....

 

"

What happens when you move the flat cable between the connection and the control pcb?

Move directly on the edges.

There is an earth relay in the unit that in some cases could be to slow in switching if you have a rcd with a fast curve. In this cases you have to cut/ take out a earth lead.

The earth lead is going from the output connector to the connection pcb.

 

"

 

If Keeping Up or any one else has Victron shore power tripping problems I would be interested in hearing experiences if you feel up to following Victrons suggestions or if there is someone who knows electricals who can comment. Personally I am a bit nervous about opening up a Victron and wiggling things when it is supplying 240V. As to cutting earth leads mmmm.

[by'eck]

I have received a reply from Victron.....

 

"

What happens when you move the flat cable between the connection and the control pcb?

Move directly on the edges.

There is an earth relay in the unit that in some cases could be to slow in switching if you have a rcd with a fast curve. In this cases you have to cut/ take out a earth lead.

The earth lead is going from the output connector to the connection pcb.

 

"

 

If Keeping Up or any one else has Victron shore power tripping problems I would be interested in hearing experiences if you feel up to following Victrons suggestions or if there is someone who knows electricals who can comment. Personally I am a bit nervous about opening up a Victron and wiggling things when it is supplying 240V. As to cutting earth leads mmmm.

 

I can understand your reluctance to messing with this.

 

The comment about the N/E (earth) relay refers to the one top right of the three on the Victron schematic in this post.

 

They appear to suggest that an RCD on the shore power may trip before this relay has had chance to break the N/E connection, which certainly explains the issue many have been having.

 

Unfortunately their advice regarding a solution appears (to me) a little vague and suggests you are permanently disconnecting the N/E bond needed when inverter operating.