Inverter chargers

[larkshall]

The newish combined charger/inverters that are advertised. Are they any good?

 

I ask because am I right in assuming if the inverter goes awol, then the charger is also U/S and vice versa?

[Guest]

The newish combined charger/inverters that are advertised. Are they any good?

 

I ask because am I right in assuming if the inverter goes awol, then the charger is also U/S and vice versa?

 

I'm not sure if that last bit is correct as it would depend on the fault and the model concerned.

 

Your problem would definitely come if the unit had to be sent away for repair though as you obviously then lose both functions.

[larkshall]

I'm not sure if that last bit is correct as it would depend on the fault and the model concerned.

 

Your problem would definitely come if the unit had to be sent away for repair though as you obviously then lose both functions.

 

 

Thought so, think I'll look for separate devices.

[Guest]

Thought so, think I'll look for separate devices.

 

There are advantages to a combi though such as overall space needed, this may or may not be an issue to you.

 

ed to add - have a skeggy at this thread too before you make up your mind.

Edited May 9, 2012 by MJG

[bottle]

Are they any good?

 

Depends.....You get what you pay for.

 

Some are quite 'clever' and can do lots of things that people do not use.

 

For instance mine (Victron) 'talks' to my generator, it starts the generator if the load is to large for the inverter to cope.

 

The charger side can be set for different types of batteries charging regimes.

[by'eck]

The newish combined charger/inverters that are advertised. Are they any good?

 

I ask because am I right in assuming if the inverter goes awol, then the charger is also U/S and vice versa?

 

Combi's have been around for at least 20 years. The Victron I had certainly continued charging ok when the inverter blew up. Not sure if there are any shared components on any other makes, but I would guess they are engineered to work independently.

 

For me the main advantage is auto switch over of AC supply, either feeding through the shore power when available or optionally auto-starting the inverter when its removed. Makes hooking up the AC system a lot easier without the need for an AC selector switch.

 

Bells & whistles on premier make models include supplementing limited shore power using inverter, dedicated generator input and auto-start, synchronised multiple unit operation & even three phase production.

[larkshall]

Combi's have been around for at least 20 years. The Victron I had certainly continued charging ok when the inverter blew up. Not sure if there are any shared components on any other makes, but I would guess they are engineered to work independently.

 

For me the main advantage is auto switch over of AC supply, either feeding through the shore power when available or optionally auto-starting the inverter when its removed. Makes hooking up the AC system a lot easier without the need for an AC selector switch.

 

Bells & whistles on premier make models include supplementing limited shore power using inverter, dedicated generator input and auto-start, synchronised multiple unit operation & even three phase production.

 

 

three phase 440v, sounds interesting

[Robbo]

Thought so, think I'll look for separate devices.

 

You'll be missing out on a few useful features which is useful on shore power and if using a genny..

 

One main feature is power assist, if the shore power or genny can't supply enough amps for the load (like a washing machine), the inverter will assist adding the extra amp. This means you won't need as big as genny.

 

If your charging your battery and using a washing machine on a genny with separate items they would be using what power they need which may be too much for the genny. With a combi the battery charging will be adaptive to the rest of the load.

[Richard10002]

With an inverter charger, if you leave your boat connected to the mains to charge the battery, when someone accidentally switches the mains off, or pulls the plug out, the unit switches to inverter power, thus drawing on the batteries.

 

If you leave your boat like this for a couple of weeks, you could return to find the batteries flat. I left my boat for a couple of days, hoping to return to 100% charged batteries. Instead, I returned to a 50% SOC.. This happens, even if the inverter is set to power save.

 

I have a Sterling inverter charger,which I like. But I might refit my 25A charger for the above types of situation.

[nicknorman]

With an inverter charger, if you leave your boat connected to the mains to charge the battery, when someone accidentally switches the mains off, or pulls the plug out, the unit switches to inverter power, thus drawing on the batteries.

 

If you leave your boat like this for a couple of weeks, you could return to find the batteries flat. I left my boat for a couple of days, hoping to return to 100% charged batteries. Instead, I returned to a 50% SOC.. This happens, even if the inverter is set to power save.

 

I have a Sterling inverter charger,which I like. But I might refit my 25A charger for the above types of situation.

On the Mastercolt offering you just move the switch from "inverter" to "charger". That way it only works as a charger and passes through the shore mains. If the shore mains goes off it doesn't go into inverter mode. I would be surprised if the Sterling doesn't have a similar feature and I am sure the Victrons do.

[Robbo]

With an inverter charger, if you leave your boat connected to the mains to charge the battery, when someone accidentally switches the mains off, or pulls the plug out, the unit switches to inverter power, thus drawing on the batteries.

 

Of course you can switch the inverter part off if you wish, and some combi's have 2 240v outlets, one is designed for things like immersion heaters to be not live if just on battery power.

 

Ofcourse if the combi doesn't have 2 240v outlets, you can do this yourself with a relay.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Robbo

[by'eck]

With an inverter charger, if you leave your boat connected to the mains to charge the battery, when someone accidentally switches the mains off, or pulls the plug out, the unit switches to inverter power, thus drawing on the batteries.

 

If you leave your boat like this for a couple of weeks, you could return to find the batteries flat. I left my boat for a couple of days, hoping to return to 100% charged batteries. Instead, I returned to a 50% SOC.. This happens, even if the inverter is set to power save.

 

I have a Sterling inverter charger,which I like. But I might refit my 25A charger for the above types of situation.

 

Only if you leave it in Auto (power save) or On mode. Since I haven't seen a Combi that doesn't have an inverter Off mode, you would be crazy to leave it on anything else for long periods unattended.

 

Your concern therefore is without merit although I appreciate you have learnt the hard way.

Edited May 9, 2012 by richardhula

[DHutch]

One think im surprised there isnt (and maybe there is) is the option to link an inverter and a charger of the same make to give the functionality of a combi while the two parts remain in dedicated boxes, given an amount more redundancy should one part need to go back for repair.

 

 

Daniel

[by'eck]

One think im surprised there isnt (and maybe there is) is the option to link an inverter and a charger of the same make to give the functionality of a combi while the two parts remain in dedicated boxes, given an amount more redundancy should one part need to go back for repair.

 

 

Daniel

 

Sterling offer one, but its over £300. The concept is that you can mix and match charger, inverter and AC sources from generator or shore power with priorities.

 

To emulate that which is built into most Combi's you would want the charger to be fed with shore power when present, passing through the AC to your boats distribution system with a delay of a few seconds on first sensing AC is available to avoid any switch over relay chatter, surge etc. On disconnection of shore power you would want it to immediately switch on inverter and switch AC distribution system to feed from it using break before make contactor.

 

Shore power earth would need to be automatically disconnected from hull when not present & inverter neutral strapped to hull to provide boat earth instead.

 

An inverter override switch would also be necessary to avoid it coming on when not needed.

Edited May 10, 2012 by richardhula

[Biggles]

three phase 440v, sounds interesting

 

Why would you want 3 phase on a boat? And to do this needs 3 inverters linked and talking to each other, and one hell of a battery bank.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Biggles

[Richard10002]

Only if you leave it in Auto (power save) or On mode. Since I haven't seen a Combi that doesn't have an inverter Off mode, you would be crazy to leave it on anything else for long periods unattended.

 

Your concern therefore is without merit although I appreciate you have learnt the hard way.

 

Now I'm baffled

 

As far as I can tell, if the battery charger function is on, the inverter function is on. If it's connected to shore power, the battery charger function works, and the shore power passes through to the boat AC system, (via the RCD). If its not connected to shore power, i.e. unplugged accidentally, the inverter function activates..... In power saver mode, it uses some amps, even if the AC system is turned off at the RCD.

 

I can't see a way of having the battery charger function on, and the inverter function off. I would be delighted to be proved wrong

 

If not, I guess a diode could be switched into the battery cable circuit, so current could only flow one way, i.e. the battery charging way..... Is this what diodes do?..... But would this introduce a voltage drop? Very complicated

 

Anyone with a Sterling Pro Combi who recognises the issue and has a solution, (which may be as simple as a switch on the unit )

[Robbo]

Anyone with a Sterling Pro Combi who recognises the issue and has a solution, (which may be as simple as a switch on the unit )

 

The Victron has a simple 3 way switch, charger only / off / on.

[Biggles]

The Victron has a simple 3 way switch, charger only / off / on.

 

 

Yes but in the on position the charger is still active if there is shore or generator power available.

[Robbo]

Yes, the charger is on if shore/genny power is available when the switch is in the on position. I don't think I understand what your getting at?

Edited May 10, 2012 by Robbo

[Guest]

Yes but in the on position the charger is still active if there is shore or generator power available.

 

Indeed but conversely if our combi is just in charger 'on' mode (switch down) it doesn't activate the inverter if the shore power goes off and thus doesn't flatten the batteries - which I read as the concern being raised above.

[by'eck]

Now I'm baffled

 

As far as I can tell, if the battery charger function is on, the inverter function is on. If it's connected to shore power, the battery charger function works, and the shore power passes through to the boat AC system, (via the RCD). If its not connected to shore power, i.e. unplugged accidentally, the inverter function activates..... In power saver mode, it uses some amps, even if the AC system is turned off at the RCD.

 

I can't see a way of having the battery charger function on, and the inverter function off. I would be delighted to be proved wrong

 

If not, I guess a diode could be switched into the battery cable circuit, so current could only flow one way, i.e. the battery charging way..... Is this what diodes do?..... But would this introduce a voltage drop? Very complicated

 

Anyone with a Sterling Pro Combi who recognises the issue and has a solution, (which may be as simple as a switch on the unit )

 

No need to be baffled

 

On most Sterling Combi's there is a three position switch panel which can be removed from main unit & relocated via a supplied lead for remote control.

 

 

The centre position as can be seen is marked perhaps slightly ambiguously Unit off since this switch controls inverter modes only. The upper position is Auto with power saving feature on, & the lower on permanently with power saving off (but only when no shore power).

 

Select mid Unit off position & charger will operate as normal when there is shore power, but will not allow inverter to function when there isn't.

Edited May 10, 2012 by richardhula

[by'eck]

Why would you want 3 phase on a boat? And to do this needs 3 inverters linked and talking to each other, and one hell of a battery bank.

 

The big marine electronics manufacturers cater for a very wide range of boating needs. The big stink pots rivaling the size of small cruise ships, take huge amounts of power. Antigua Yacht club marina where many congregate for the famous race week, offer up to 400 amps @ 380 volts of three phase shore power for example!

 

Mr Big is not going to be too happy if there is interruption to his 24/7 air con when one or two of his many onboard generators are OOC or the shore power craps out (which happens a lot in Antigua ), so would naturally want at least some continuity of power from an onboard battery bank the size of a football pitch.

Edited May 10, 2012 by richardhula

[Richard10002]

No need to be baffled

 

On most Sterling Combi's there is a three position switch panel which can be removed from main unit & relocated via a supplied lead for remote control.

 

 

The centre position as can be seen is marked perhaps slightly ambiguously Unit off since this switch controls inverter modes only. The upper position is Auto with power saving feature on, & the lower on permanently with power saving off (but only when no shore power).

 

Select mid Unit off position & charger will operate as normal when there is shore power, but will not allow inverter to function when there isn't.

 

Thanks Richard, but still baffled

 

Honda generator connected to shore power...... 3position switch in lower position or upper position, lights flash and yellow charger indicator stays on, generator speeds up, and clamp ammeter reads 69Amps on the battery cable. Move switch to centre position, lights go out, generator slows down, zero amps on the meter. As far as I can tell, the unit is off.

 

This is with the 3 position switch attached to the main unit. Could things change if it is connected as a remote? Might have a go later.

[Richard10002]

Sent an email to Sterling early this morning. Got a short, but informative reply:

 

Quote:

 

Charles Sterling Reply:

 

makes sense but not on that model we are working on upgrade to do that but its a year away for landing

 

From: sterling-power.com [mailto:help@sterling-power.com]

 

My email:

 

Sent: 10 May 2012 01:40

To: help@sterling-power.com

Subject: sterling-power.com Form Submission Results

 

Contact from sterling-power.com

Name Richard Faulkner

Email richard10002@hotmail.co.uk

Telephone 07710 560855

Message Hi, I bought a reconditioned Pro Combi S 2500w Inverter Charger from you, and it's fine. A few days ago I left the boat connected to shore power, expecting to return a few days later to a fully charged battery bank. When I returned, the cable had become unplugged, and the unit reverted to its'inverter function, obviously using a few amps even on power save with the RCD breakers off. Am I missing something? i.e. can the inverter function be turned off, but the battery charging function remains on? Hope this makes sense. Many Thanks, Richard Faulkner.

 

End Quote

 

Can't remember how this started, but I think I was warning the OP to be aware of a downside to look for in inverter chargers.

 

 

Looks like I should have bought a different make....... I asked earlier if a diode could be inserted into the circuit with a switch, but wondered if this would result in a voltage drop.... Or can you get diodes that don't drop voltage...... I would only be trying to stop the couple of Amps that would be drawn on power save, so the diode part of the circuit would only need to handle the 70A of the charger function, so could be cabled and fused accordingly.

 

Perhaps a subject for a separate thread, and perhaps a bit of overkill, as I should have a 100W solar panel fitted soon.

[by'eck]

Thanks Richard, but still baffled

 

Honda generator connected to shore power...... 3position switch in lower position or upper position, lights flash and yellow charger indicator stays on, generator speeds up, and clamp ammeter reads 69Amps on the battery cable. Move switch to centre position, lights go out, generator slows down, zero amps on the meter. As far as I can tell, the unit is off.

 

This is with the 3 position switch attached to the main unit. Could things change if it is connected as a remote? Might have a go later.

 

I have a Sterling Combi myself although its only just been installed in a new boat build so haven't had the opportunity to verify its functions. Having used other brands though I was fairly confident in stating that the inverter alone could be turned off.

 

Following on from your comments and having a vested interest, I phoned Sterling's & confirmed your findings - Whoops you are quite correct the Off position does turn the whole unit off. Furthemore they confirmed the ridiculous situation that there are no means of turning off the inverter independently. Please accept my apologies for suggesting otherwise.

 

They did mention the use of a latching relay set to cut the battery connection if volts dropped below a certain level, but this may add more problems than it solves.

 

Just noticed your last post which indicates they are looking to add the inverter off facility, but not soon.

 

My own installation includes a second dedicated three output charger so I would leave only that on with shore power if in a similar situation to yourself.