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National Engine starter motor


Chris Pink

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Enough is enough.

 

I can start my engine, mostly, but when any little thing goes wrong (it overheated yesterday) it can be an exhausting process.

 

And I'm not getting any younger.

 

so...

 

I am going to put a starter motor on my National DM2 (or at least investigate the feasibilty)

 

Does anyone know of a machine shop that can handle putting a ring gear on a National flywheel?

 

and what flavour of starter motor would be recommended?

 

 

...otherwise I might be in the market for an HA2 or HA3

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Enough is enough.

 

I can start my engine, mostly, but when any little thing goes wrong (it overheated yesterday) it can be an exhausting process.

 

And I'm not getting any younger.

 

so...

 

I am going to put a starter motor on my National DM2 (or at least investigate the feasibilty)

 

Does anyone know of a machine shop that can handle putting a ring gear on a National flywheel?

 

and what flavour of starter motor would be recommended?

 

 

...otherwise I might be in the market for an HA2 or HA3

I don't know if it will help but I have just been fitting a ring gear to a vintage lister that the flywheel wouldn't come off without an unacceptable risk of irreplaceable breakage.

 

I have engineered a mounting system to fit the ring gear to the external face of the flywheel and mount the starter from the other side.

 

It isn't finished yet so it is unproven but I would be happy to send you the drawings.

 

Regards

 

Arnot

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Enough is enough.

 

I can start my engine, mostly, but when any little thing goes wrong (it overheated yesterday) it can be an exhausting process.

 

And I'm not getting any younger.

 

so...

 

I am going to put a starter motor on my National DM2 (or at least investigate the feasibilty)

 

Does anyone know of a machine shop that can handle putting a ring gear on a National flywheel?

 

and what flavour of starter motor would be recommended?

 

 

...otherwise I might be in the market for an HA2 or HA3

 

What diameter is your flywheel? How much of a hurry?

I have done a JP flywheel including making the ring gear to suit. I did the gear in conjunction with my CNC milling machine, which is out of action at the moment but it's 'on the list' for this winter.

 

Flywheelgear-3b.jpg

 

Flywheelgear-4b.jpg

 

Flywheelgear-5b.jpg

 

I expect you could find someone further sarf though

 

The starter used, for a JP3, was a CA45 or whatever they call it now (same sort as used on Lister HA etc)

Another way is to use a Dynastart with a belt around the flywheel, I saw a JP the other day with one which seemed to work fine though JPs are generally much easier to start than Nationals which might be an issue for the poor old Dynastart.

 

Tim

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What diameter is your flywheel? How much of a hurry?

I have done a JP flywheel including making the ring gear to suit. I did the gear in conjunction with my CNC milling machine, which is out of action at the moment but it's 'on the list' for this winter.

Tim

Respect!

 

:lol:

 

Arnot

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What diameter is your flywheel? How much of a hurry?

I have done a JP flywheel including making the ring gear to suit. I did the gear in conjunction with my CNC milling machine, which is out of action at the moment but it's 'on the list' for this winter.

 

Nice bit of work, Tim, that's what i'm after, though at the risk of widening the topic the National is 'dead' at the moment, suspected cracked head around one inlet valve seat (nasty 'wooshing' noise even though the valves are newly reseated and fitted by an engineer.) after a prolonged session of trying to start it when it started once, ran for a couple of minutes but wouldn't rev up properly and then stopped and wouldn't go again.

 

so no hurry really.

 

Diameter not sure, though it looks to be a bit smaller than that JP.

 

I will also, at some point soon be needing to get some of the copper seating washers for the valve cages if you, or anyone else, knows where i can get some.

 

Arnot; how are you going to centre the ring gear on the face of the flywheel?

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Nice bit of work, Tim, that's what i'm after, though at the risk of widening the topic the National is 'dead' at the moment, suspected cracked head around one inlet valve seat (nasty 'wooshing' noise even though the valves are newly reseated and fitted by an engineer.) after a prolonged session of trying to start it when it started once, ran for a couple of minutes but wouldn't rev up properly and then stopped and wouldn't go again.

 

so no hurry really.

 

Diameter not sure, though it looks to be a bit smaller than that JP.

 

I will also, at some point soon be needing to get some of the copper seating washers for the valve cages if you, or anyone else, knows where i can get some.

 

Arnot; how are you going to centre the ring gear on the face of the flywheel?

 

I would try RN Diesels for the copper washers. I believe they came in two different widths, so you will need to check yours.

 

I've got some well-used valve cages here should you need one, might need new guides but they might get you out of trouble.

 

Tim

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What diameter is your flywheel? How much of a hurry?

I have done a JP flywheel including making the ring gear to suit. I did the gear in conjunction with my CNC milling machine, which is out of action at the moment but it's 'on the list' for this winter.

 

Flywheelgear-3b.jpg

 

Flywheelgear-4b.jpg

 

Flywheelgear-5b.jpg

 

I expect you could find someone further sarf though

 

The starter used, for a JP3, was a CA45 or whatever they call it now (same sort as used on Lister HA etc)

Another way is to use a Dynastart with a belt around the flywheel, I saw a JP the other day with one which seemed to work fine though JPs are generally much easier to start than Nationals which might be an issue for the poor old Dynastart.

 

Tim

Wow Thats magic to a woodworker like me :lol:

 

 

What diameter is your flywheel? How much of a hurry?

I have done a JP flywheel including making the ring gear to suit. I did the gear in conjunction with my CNC milling machine, which is out of action at the moment but it's 'on the list' for this winter.

 

Flywheelgear-3b.jpg

 

Flywheelgear-4b.jpg

 

Flywheelgear-5b.jpg

 

I expect you could find someone further sarf though

 

The starter used, for a JP3, was a CA45 or whatever they call it now (same sort as used on Lister HA etc)

Another way is to use a Dynastart with a belt around the flywheel, I saw a JP the other day with one which seemed to work fine though JPs are generally much easier to start than Nationals which might be an issue for the poor old Dynastart.

 

Tim

Wow thats black magic to a woodworker like me :lol:
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Arnot; how are you going to centre the ring gear on the face of the flywheel?

With difficulty... :lol:

 

Seriously though, I intend to mount the ring gear on a standoff/flange that I am having laser cut for accuracy. When that is complete, the whole assembly will be clamped to the flywheel adn centred using a dial indicator. Then the flywheel will be drilled and tapped to fix the flange of the mounting.

 

The problem was, as with most vintage diesels, that the outer face of the flywheel is dished so there is nothing to attach to anywhere near the centre.

 

That's the theory anyway...

 

Regards

 

Arnot

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I think it would be worth talking to Alistair Denyer at RN, he probably has ring gears in stock. I think the DM flywheel is 22'' diameter, you should have no problem getting it off, as it is mounted on a flange rather than a taper. The starter motor

could be mounted, as RN starters are, on the left hand crankcase cover plate. Replace the cast iron plate with a 10 - 12mm steel plate, using the cast plate as a drilling template, and use an angle bracket fixed to this to mount the starter on (the angle would need to be 4'' x 4'' or 5'' x 5'') .This is pretty much how new RN starters are mounted, Alistair may be able to supply the whole kit if you wanted.

 

I don't want to suggest this as a better alternative to Tim's suggestion, I ' take my hat off' to him

 

The second National I bought already had an electric start fitted, and whilst I had originally intended to take it off, I'm not getting any younger ( back hurts, shoulders hurt et al ) so it's still on and is installed in Aquila. It's a good job it is the because after the 'rebuild' I doubt I could ever start it by hand. If you want to have a look at it then your welcome. If you have any difficulty in sorting the cylinder head problem I may be able to help.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

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It's a good job it is the because after the 'rebuild' I doubt I could ever start it by hand.

 

Useful information, thank you.

 

It's always had pretty low compression but it does seem right down at the moment. I can turn the flywheel over compression with my foot (both cylinders) and as i say one inlet valve is hissing badly.

 

It has a habit of being a pig to start whenever anything is disturbed (valve cages, injectors out for instance) but this are different symptoms and I am going to have to remove the head for inspection.

 

Probably a good time to do the starter as well.

 

Difficult to start by hand now how?

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I think it would be worth talking to Alistair Denyer at RN, he probably has ring gears in stock. I think the DM flywheel is 22'' diameter, you should have no problem getting it off, as it is mounted on a flange rather than a taper. The starter motor

could be mounted, as RN starters are, on the left hand crankcase cover plate. Replace the cast iron plate with a 10 - 12mm steel plate, using the cast plate as a drilling template, and use an angle bracket fixed to this to mount the starter on (the angle would need to be 4'' x 4'' or 5'' x 5'') .This is pretty much how new RN starters are mounted, Alistair may be able to supply the whole kit if you wanted.

 

I don't want to suggest this as a better alternative to Tim's suggestion, I ' take my hat off' to him

 

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

 

If you can get the right ring gear - which in your case should be possible - then undoubtedly that's a better way though be warned it probably won't be particularly cheap.

When I was doing that JP3 there were particular constraints about size of ring, to get the starter motor into the right position. The standard Lister JP ring gear, if you can find one, is much bigger. By doing it all in one setup, ie cutting the shoulder into the flywheel on the milling machine instead of having to set it up in a big lathe, I reckoned the overall cost of the job was pretty similar to the cost of buying a ring gear and paying someone else to turn the flywheel in a big lathe, with the bonus of getting the exact size of ring that I wanted. I did get two ring blanks made at the time, so I do have a spare blank for that size.

The big lathe I have now might just take a 22" flywheel but it would be a tight squeeze.

 

Tim

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With difficulty... :lol:

 

Seriously though, I intend to mount the ring gear on a standoff/flange that I am having laser cut for accuracy. When that is complete, the whole assembly will be clamped to the flywheel adn centred using a dial indicator. Then the flywheel will be drilled and tapped to fix the flange of the mounting.

 

The problem was, as with most vintage diesels, that the outer face of the flywheel is dished so there is nothing to attach to anywhere near the centre.

 

That's the theory anyway...

 

Regards

 

Arnot

 

I thought it was heated someplace allowing it to slip on and cool tight in position. Or has the world of engineerng changed, hence the survival of two pound coins and similar, which can be "holed" useing a candle!

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It's just occurred to me that I have a gen-u-wine Simms starter here from a 4-cyl National, probably fitted as original equipment. I had it refurbished about 20 years ago & it's been on the shelf ever since.

Snag, for most people, is that it's 24 Volt.

 

Tim

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It's just occurred to me that I have a gen-u-wine Simms starter here from a 4-cyl National, probably fitted as original equipment. I had it refurbished about 20 years ago & it's been on the shelf ever since.

Snag, for most people, is that it's 24 Volt.

 

Tim

Work of art. Not seen one of those since the old king died.

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It's just occurred to me that I have a gen-u-wine Simms starter here from a 4-cyl National, probably fitted as original equipment. I had it refurbished about 20 years ago & it's been on the shelf ever since.

Snag, for most people, is that it's 24 Volt.

 

Tim

 

How does it engage?

 

I did kind of realise that having a starter motor would involve having that new fangled electrickery aboard (i hear it collects in the bilge) so 24V is no scary than any other volt.

 

 

 

Not pretty but works well. Parts from a scrap car and with a bit of machining to get flywheel to fit with keyway only cost 10 pound in total

 

Why did you fit the starter facing backwards?

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I thought it was heated someplace allowing it to slip on and cool tight in position. Or has the world of engineerng changed, hence the survival of two pound coins and similar, which can be "holed" useing a candle!

It is the usual way for the ring gear to be shrunk in place which has the benefit of ensuring concentricity. To do this sensibly however the flywheel would have had to be removed and it wasn't worth the risk.

 

On some older larger diesels though the ring gear was in sections all bolted on the the back of the flywheel and it didn't ever seem to give any problems. Let's hope it works for me!

 

Regards

 

Arnot

 

It's just occurred to me that I have a gen-u-wine Simms starter here from a 4-cyl National, probably fitted as original equipment. I had it refurbished about 20 years ago & it's been on the shelf ever since.

Snag, for most people, is that it's 24 Volt.

 

Tim

There is a special relay available that allows a 24V starter to be operated on a 12V system. Obviously it requires two batteries for starting, they are normally connected in parallel for charging and when the starter solenoid feed is energised they are temproarily connected in series by the relay.

 

Regards

 

Arnot

Edited by Arnot
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<snip>

 

On some older larger diesels though the ring gear was in sections all bolted on the the back of the flywheel and it didn't ever seem to give any problems. Let's hope it works for me!

 

Regards

 

Arnot

 

I guess that it also meant you could swap sections around as teeth got worn out. Car ring gears wear where the engine stops on the compression stroke so it is usually the same places that take all the damage as the starter engages.

 

Richard

 

Could you turn them around too?

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