buying deisel

[Chertsey]

May I suggest that anyone losing the will to live as a result of reading this thread stop reading it as a matter of some urgency.

[cotswoldsman]

Am I the only one totally losing the will to live ?

 

Alan you certainly arn't I think I ought to stop reading this thread and any of the other ones concerning red diesel split.

 

As I have posted before HMCE have a very good help line that anyone can call.

 

As I have posted before they told me that if a boater is asked to sign a declaration they do not agree with they should sign the declaration with a note on the declaration to the effect "I am signing this declaration in the knowledge that it is not a true reflection of my use of diesel" as I hope everyone by now is aware the retailer has to give you a copy of the declaration, this should then be copied and the copy sent to HMCE.

 

The agrument that the retailer can do as he wants does not wash in order to be a RDCO they are regulated by HMCE and self declaration is part of the regulations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

May I suggest that anyone losing the will to live as a result of reading this thread stop reading it as a matter of some urgency.

 

I agree..... I am going to seek help as I keep getting drawn back.

[mayalld]

Alan you certainly arn't I think I ought to stop reading this thread and any of the other ones concerning red diesel split.

 

As I have posted before HMCE have a very good help line that anyone can call.

 

As I have posted before they told me that if a boater is asked to sign a declaration they do not agree with they should sign the declaration with a note on the declaration to the effect "I am signing this declaration in the knowledge that it is not a true reflection of my use of diesel" as I hope everyone by now is aware the retailer has to give you a copy of the declaration, this should then be copied and the copy sent to HMCE.

 

The agrument that the retailer can do as he wants does not wash in order to be a RDCO they are regulated by HMCE and self declaration is part of the regulations.

 

Perhaps you didn't follow the link to read what HMRC had to say on this issue;

 

Dear Sue

 

 

Private pleasure craft owners who wish to continue to use red diesel are now under a legal obligation to make a declaration, in respect of that intended for propulsion, at the point of purchase.

 

We are aware that some suppliers have chosen to supply diesel on this fixed basis, in order to minimise administrative burdens. That is a commercial decision for them and perfectly legal. In these circumstances, it is for the user to decide whether the apportionment offered by the supplier is appropriate for them; if it is not, they should not make a declaration to that effect because it would be false. The customer should instead purchase their fuel from a supplier who is willing/able to accommodate the varying apportionment rates of different customers.

 

Regards

 

Oils Written Enquiries

 

So (as I said all along) retailers are free to make a commercial decision. If the retailer doesn't offer the split you want, you will have to fill up elsewhere.

[cotswoldsman]

Perhaps you didn't follow the link to read what HMRC had to say on this issue;

 

Dear Sue

 

 

Private pleasure craft owners who wish to continue to use red diesel are now under a legal obligation to make a declaration, in respect of that intended for propulsion, at the point of purchase.

 

We are aware that some suppliers have chosen to supply diesel on this fixed basis, in order to minimise administrative burdens. That is a commercial decision for them and perfectly legal. In these circumstances, it is for the user to decide whether the apportionment offered by the supplier is appropriate for them; if it is not, they should not make a declaration to that effect because it would be false. The customer should instead purchase their fuel from a supplier who is willing/able to accommodate the varying apportionment rates of different customers.

 

Regards

 

Oils Written Enquiries

 

So (as I said all along) retailers are free to make a commercial decision. If the retailer doesn't offer the split you want, you will have to fill up elsewhere.

 

No I did not follow the link.

 

I posted what I was told by HMCE and I have a phone reference number for the advice I was given, and have an actual name of that contact as apposed to "Oils Written Enquiries"

 

Anyway I have to say at this stage that I know enough retailers who are allowing self declaration that it does not bother me to much what other marinas want to do. I fill up normally when I have about 2 weeks of diesel left so will always be able to find a retailer that allows me to make my own declaration.

[Rogerh]

Anyway I have to say at this stage that I know enough retailers who are allowing self declaration that it does not bother me to much what other marinas want to do. I fill up normally when I have about 2 weeks of diesel left so will always be able to find a retailer that allows me to make my own declaration.

 

To me this seems a sensible way to go (if possible of course) if you want anything other than a 60/40 split. It will mean a little more forethought and planning on the boaters behalf. In a few months time, the dust will settle and we all have a better idea of who is selling what.

 

During the planning of 'Windsong' we decided on having a second tank built in for heating, which now seems to be justified.

As an aside the lads at XR&D were able to make locking covers for both tanks and I believe are going to offer these as standard on new shells.

[blackrose]

I topped up with 45 litres of diesel yesterday and declared 100% for domestic use. Since I already had at least 285 litres in my tank prior to the new regs, my supplier told me that I wouldn't need to pay duty on my diesel until I had used all of that for propulsion.

Edited November 13, 2008 by blackrose

[cotswoldsman]

I topped up with 45 litres of diesel yesterday and declared 100% for domestic use. Since I already had at least 285 litres in my tank prior to the new regs, my supplier told me that I wouldn't need to pay duty on my diesel until I had used all of that for propulsion.

 

Great. Could you name the marina so that we know the retailers that are keeping to the new system.

[Tiny]

When visiting an ABC marina I was told all their marinas are operating the new system of - 'you tell us the proportions, fill out the form and we will calculate the cost . (By typing into the computer the relevant numbers - then the installed program displays the totals.) So no problems with extra charges or set splits there.

[blackrose]

Great. Could you name the marina so that we know the retailers that are keeping to the new system.

 

Just the fuel boat that visits my area. I don't know the law as applied to suppliers, but I would say if any supplier doesn't operate within the new regulations, including not accepting the declared split or refusing to supply, then they could face problems.

[mayalld]

Just the fuel boat that visits my area. I don't know the law as applied to suppliers, but I would say if any supplier doesn't operate within the new regulations, including not accepting the declared split or refusing to supply, then they could face problems.

 

Well, personally, I'd go with what HMRC have put in writing, and it doesn't agree with what you say.

[ditchcrawler]

To me this seems a sensible way to go (if possible of course) if you want anything other than a 60/40 split. It will mean a little more forethought and planning on the boaters behalf. In a few months time, the dust will settle and we all have a better idea of who is selling what.

 

During the planning of 'Windsong' we decided on having a second tank built in for heating, which now seems to be justified.

As an aside the lads at XR&D were able to make locking covers for both tanks and I believe are going to offer these as standard on new shells.

Don't forget you can declare that all the diesel in the heating tank at the low rat of duty and also a percentage that you put in the main tank as the engine alternator will still be charging your batteries etc.

[chris w]

Well, personally, I'd go with what HMRC have put in writing, and it doesn't agree with what you say.

I also agree with Dave that the (short-sighted) marinas can choose to sell legally at what split they want.

 

We are the ones that have to decide to either swallow the additional expense if our usage is less than 60/40 or to sign a false declaration if our usage is more than 60/40. (Strictly speaking, it's a false declaration in both cases, but HMRC will only mnd if you deprive them of revenue , not give them more!).

 

The 3rd choice, of course, is to shop elsewhere if possible. As had been said before, when we buy diesel, we inevitably buy a few boat goodies or snacks or drinks etc at the same time. These marinas will lose that trade.

 

Chris

[blackrose]

Well, personally, I'd go with what HMRC have put in writing, and it doesn't agree with what you say.

 

I guess I still haven't understood the new regs properly then, but from what was posted yesterday I thought that a supplier's only obligation was to remind customers about the regs. Are we now saying that they are have a discretionary right to refuse to supply or change the split if they deem it necessary?

[mayalld]

I guess I still haven't understood the new regs properly then, but from what was posted yesterday I thought that a supplier's only obligation was to remind customers about the regs. Are we now saying that they are have a discretionary right to refuse to supply or change the split if they deem it necessary?

 

The fact that the suppliers only OBLIGATION is to remind customers about the regs doesn't affect the fact that the supplier can make additional conditions about who he will supply.

 

HMRC have confirmed that suppliers are free to make a commercial decision about what splits they will sell, and that customers who want a different split must go elsewhere.

[chris w]

I guess I still haven't understood the new regs properly then, but from what was posted yesterday I thought that a supplier's only obligation was to remind customers about the regs. Are we now saying that they are have a discretionary right to refuse to supply or change the split if they deem it necessary?

Suppliers can do NOTHING after the sale takes place if they haven't posted a clear notice BEFORE the sale takes place. The Sale takes place when you r boat starts to get filled NOT when you pay.

 

So, as annoying as we might find it, unfortunately the supplier does have the right BEFORE the sale takes place to say "We only do 60/40 splits here. If that doesn't suit your usage, please find another supplier".

 

What they can't do is tell you afterwards, when you pay, that they only do 60/40 splits. That contravenes your Contract of Sale. Sale terms cannot be added after the sale other than by mutual agreement.

 

Chris

[bottle]

I guess I still haven't understood the new regs properly then, but from what was posted yesterday I thought that a supplier's only obligation was to remind customers about the regs. Correct Are we now saying that they are have a discretionary right to refuse to supply or change the split if they deem it necessary? Not quite, they have the right to declare, before sale, that they will only sell in set splits, it is then your choice whether to buy at that split or not, being aware that to declare a false split is illegal.

 

See post #153 for a quote of an e-mail that Sue on 'No problem' received and posted on her blog.

[alan_fincher]

What the reply that Sue (No Problem) has received does not say, is what you do if the fuel is in your tank before you are informed that the outlet in question only operates some kind of enforced split.

 

But the answer is obvious. Make sure before you fill you know what the policy is.

 

Personally even if I wanted to declare 60/40, I still absolutely would not take my business to somewhere only prepared to accept 60/40.

 

I believe it is perfectly possible for a supplier to be able to accept any split, without it being a big administrative burden, so I would actively not use those who will not let the punter decide. I'd extend this to say I would try very hard not to use them for any service, from a bottle of milk, through to a weeks use of their dry dock or slipway. If everybody took that line, those suppliers would have to think again about their fuel policy, or expect a big downturn in their profitability.

 

People were saying this change could have a very detrimental effect on the coal boats. From what I'm seeing, they may do very well out of it, if they all stay flexible, when others do not.

 

Alan

[sueb]

Great. Could you name the marina so that we know the retailers that are keeping to the new system.

Perhaps someone would like to start a new topic as this was supposed to be outlets that have stopped selling diesel

Sue

[Rogerh]

Don't forget you can declare that all the diesel in the heating tank at the low rat of duty and also a percentage that you put in the main tank as the engine alternator will still be charging your batteries etc.

 

Exactly. The heating tank is a lot smaller of course, so in the winter we will probably be filling that one fairly regularly, but at the low rate, so the heating bill will not be too great.

[Chertsey]

Perhaps someone would like to start a new topic as this was supposed to be outlets that have stopped selling diesel

Sue

Bit late now. This is all very interesting and arguably more general info about who does what is more useful.

[Justme]

What sort of volume do you all buy at once?

 

I have just had to order some red & was quoted 49.95p plus vat on 500L & 48p plus vat on 1000L. This is far less than most boaters are getting charged. Even allowing for the reduced volume you buy it should be cheaper.

 

 

edited to add

 

historicly our local petrol station selling it by the can is about 8-10pL more.

 

 

Justme

Edited November 13, 2008 by Justme

[cotswoldsman]

Personally even if I wanted to declare 60/40, I still absolutely would not take my business to somewhere only prepared to accept 60/40.

 

I believe it is perfectly possible for a supplier to be able to accept any split, without it being a big administrative burden, so I would actively not use those who will not let the punter decide. I'd extend this to say I would try very hard not to use them for any service, from a bottle of milk, through to a weeks use of their dry dock or slipway. If everybody took that line, those suppliers would have to think again about their fuel policy, or expect a big downturn in their profitability.

 

 

 

Alan

 

Alan I agree 100% and I personaly would not use the marina even if they change there policy at a later date, they just would not be the type of people I would want to do business with.

[ThePiglet]

What happens if I buy a tankful for domestic use and my circumstances change? Can I re-declare and send a cheque off to HMRC?

[mrbeats]

Forgive me if I have this wrong as I simply dont know, but is it not illegal for the supplier to enforce a fixed split they deem acceptable as its down to the buyer to declare usage by law ?

[chris w]

Forgive me if I have this wrong as I simply dont know, but is it not illegal for the supplier to enforce a fixed split they deem acceptable as its down to the buyer to declare usage by law ?

 

The supplier can advertise BEFORE the sale that he/she will only sell diesel on the basis of a 60/40 split for example. If that split does not suit you, then you either have to make a false declaration or find another diesel supplier. There is nothing illegal, unfortunately, about a supplier's having a rigid split policy. There is another thread, recently started, in which we are listing all the suppliers who have stated that they will serve ANY split to us. (including banana split )

 

Chris

Edited November 14, 2008 by chris w