Alternatives to blue

[RLWP]

Sorry, I have just thought why my vent idea won't work. Those pump out connections must go to a pipe that ends at the bottom of the tank, not the top! Otherwise, they don't pump much out.

 

Richard

[sueb]

It might be possible.... mine are on the roof (ex hire!), but now discarded for a Porta Potti (and I never ever want to go through removing a 3m long holding tank from a boat EVER AGAIN! ).

 

Most tanks have a hull-side vent so, in theory, you might be able to create a draw through the rinse-out fitting, though this depends on the way the water is let into the tank. If its just a hole, then fine- if its a nozzle, as it should be, then it may be harder.

 

Getting air through, by the way, is an important part of composting toilets working. A wind powered fan might work- or you could fit a fan inside the hull-drawoff vent, but when pumping out you would have to leave the flap open (or turn the fan off!). Anyway that gets the air moving would work. I once considered an airline from an aquarium air pump into the tank....! I think that was a cider moment though!

It's easier to use bio magic.

Sue

[Mark L]

But bio-magic still needs a good supply of oxygen... it contains aerobic (or encourages them) bacteria..... without enough oxygen, they do very little... and the stuff then replies on surfactants and enzymes instead. And enzymes are rather specific. It does smell nice though!

 

Oh, and though its an "oxygen rich" liquid... unless its H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide- which I doubt) it can't supply much oxygen to the tank. I agree it works well in cassette toilets, but not over long periods. And in our tests, it didn't break waste down particularly effectively. And the bacteria counts showed potential pathogens as well....

Edited August 28, 2008 by Mark L

[blackrose]

Having been testing several treatments over the last year (not a job I recommend, as I was taking samples for analysis in my lab....!), I can state that the yeast treatment isn't really effective, especially in a large tank. The anerobic conditions in most large holding tanks means that the yeast, in theory, should make alcohol. However, we found that they didn't actually reproduce much- the cell count was quite low- much lower than I would expect. It may work in a cassette, but not really likely. Yeast prefer to feast on sugars, rather than fibreous material (the solids!) and urea / proteins (wee!). Most decomposition is by nitrosomer/nitrobacter bacteria.

 

One of the main reasons for adding formaldehyde-bases chemicals (for which there is a British Standard) is to make the effluent less nasty to handle. If you pump out a tank or pour a cassette, where potentially pathogenic microorganisms are developing (i.e. not treated), you stand a chance of breathing in / getting covered in the (almost) invisible aerosol...... not a nice thought! Some boatyards won't empty a tank that is not treated, for that reason!

 

The "green fluids" are usually based on bacteria that reproduce to overcome any pathogenic ones..... or use surfactants to break down the waste and cover the smell.

 

If you want to ensure they work, then you need a good flow of air through the tank- a vent in and a (solar) powered fan on the outlet would ensure that they work better. And giving a good flush through on emptying. That also can remove the rather nasty pong (based on sulphur compounds being release in anerobic-without oxygen- conditions).

 

Hope that adds to the debate!

 

So how do you account for so many of us having positive results using biomagic and odorloss, rather than blue?

 

The other problem with formaldehyde-based treatments is that they cause sludge formation in the tank which can make them more difficult to empty.

[Gibbo]

So how do you account for so many of us having positive results using biomagic and odorloss, rather than blue?

 

This is a good question and one that I know nothing about other than personal experience which I will bore you all with here.

 

I lived on my boat (with 2 holding tanks) for 3 years. For the first 18 months we had no problem with smells at all. Then at one pump out, without being asked, the tank had a cuppla litres of blue thrown in it after a pump out. Within 2 weeks it stank to high heaven which it had NEVER done previosly. Over the next 3 months or so the smell slowly subsided. After 6 months it had gone completely. We never put anything down the toilets other than human waste and only ever cleaned them with water. Never any chemicals

 

A few months after this Mrs Gibbo changed to a new model who put toilet duck down the bog. It started to stink again. Took a few months for the smell to go.

 

My own experience is that if you put any form of chemical down them it makes them stink. If you only put human waste down them they are fine.

 

But I know sod all about the subject.

 

Gibbo

[saltysplash]

This is a good question and one that I know nothing about other than personal experience which I will bore you all with here.

 

I lived on my boat (with 2 holding tanks) for 3 years. For the first 18 months we had no problem with smells at all. Then at one pump out, without being asked, the tank had a cuppla litres of blue thrown in it after a pump out. Within 2 weeks it stank to high heaven which it had NEVER done previosly. Over the next 3 months or so the smell slowly subsided. After 6 months it had gone completely. We never put anything down the toilets other than human waste and only ever cleaned them with water. Never any chemicals

 

A few months after this Mrs Gibbo changed to a new model who put toilet duck down the bog. It started to stink again. Took a few months for the smell to go.

 

My own experience is that if you put any form of chemical down them it makes them stink. If you only put human waste down them they are fine.

 

But I know sod all about the subject.

 

Gibbo

 

 

Its an interesting post,

 

Gonna try this approach with just using lemon juice as a cleaning product for the bowl.

 

Will save a good 12 quid on blue

[twocvbloke]

Its an interesting post,

 

Gonna try this approach with just using lemon juice as a cleaning product for the bowl.

 

Will save a good 12 quid on blue

 

Borax and Lemon juice are even better for the ol' loo bowl. Mix them together into a paste, apply to the bowl, leave for an hour, flush, and enjoy the sparkling best seat in the house (or boat)...

[blackrose]

This is a good question and one that I know nothing about other than personal experience which I will bore you all with here.

 

I lived on my boat (with 2 holding tanks) for 3 years. For the first 18 months we had no problem with smells at all. Then at one pump out, without being asked, the tank had a cuppla litres of blue thrown in it after a pump out. Within 2 weeks it stank to high heaven which it had NEVER done previosly. Over the next 3 months or so the smell slowly subsided. After 6 months it had gone completely. We never put anything down the toilets other than human waste and only ever cleaned them with water. Never any chemicals

 

A few months after this Mrs Gibbo changed to a new model who put toilet duck down the bog. It started to stink again. Took a few months for the smell to go.

 

My own experience is that if you put any form of chemical down them it makes them stink. If you only put human waste down them they are fine.

 

But I know sod all about the subject.

 

Gibbo

 

Well Lee Sanitation don't recommend using any formaldehyde-based treatments in any of the toilets they supply.

[Mark L]

WEll, I have anecdotal eveidence from a number of boaters (with large holding tanks, admitedly) that say that Biomagic doesn't work for them! However, often it is down to how boaters use it- and I will be trying it again, after peoples suggestions.

 

I am not suggesting that Formaldehyde / methanal /methanol bases treatments are best- far from it. However, they can render the waste much safer to handle than either raw sewage.

 

Sludging is a problem with all holding tanks, regardless of treatment. I removed a tank from a boat that never had any treatment used, and it still had a good 2 inches of solid sludge at the bottom. The sludge come from fibre, and the remnants of dead microbes- and yes, formaldehyde does encourage this. However, unless you have designed the tank well (sloping bottom to the pick up, several well-spaced 360/180 degree spray nozzles) and clean the tank throughly at pump out, there will always be sludging. The more often you pump out, the less "crap" in the bottom, so to speak! Hire boats fare a lot better in this respect, from my experience.

 

Microbial treatment systems work well, if there is a good throughput of air (see earlier). IN the USA and other countries, onboard waste treatment plants effectively decompose the waste so it is in a fit state to be discharged overboard- using settlement, aeration and bacteria. However, they are large- and currrently wouldn't be allowed to discharge the treated effluent into our watercourses. However, would then be perfect to empty at a pump out!

 

Incidently, my most successful treatment, using my porta potti, seems to be 50ml Elsan Double Blue in the bottom tank (low dose) with a relatively cheap disinfectant (150ml) in the top tank- diluted to 15 litres (a 1:100 solution). Seems more effective than the "pink" rinse solution.

 

I suppose I should go to do some work now! Off to Wrenbury!

[PaulG]

Hi,

 

I've been looking for alternative toilet approaches....

 

Have you tried calling George Michael??

 

Seriously, our boat has got a holding tank and I've found Biomagic pretty effective. I do need to use larger quantities more frequently than their literature suggests, however.

[blackrose]

Have you tried calling George Michael??

 

[John Orentas]

Funny thing about these chemicals, liquids, powders, even aspirin size pills, I used to try all the magical concoctions as they came out (including non at all)..

 

All of them work brilliantly the first couple of times you use them and later loose their powers.. I used to be wary of using Blue as it is a strong alkaline and I worried about my tank.. But with hindsight it has never given trouble.

[sueb]

We are another happy biomagic user with a large holding tank. I use no more than a small bottle between each pump-out, very often less. I put a bit after a pump-out then a bit more every time I notice a whiff.

Sue

[Lesd]

WEll, I have anecdotal eveidence from a number of boaters (with large holding tanks, admitedly) that say that Biomagic doesn't work for them! However, often it is down to how boaters use it- and I will be trying it again, after peoples suggestions.

 

I am not suggesting that Formaldehyde / methanal /methanol bases treatments are best- far from it. However, they can render the waste much safer to handle than either raw sewage.

 

Sludging is a problem with all holding tanks, regardless of treatment. I removed a tank from a boat that never had any treatment used, and it still had a good 2 inches of solid sludge at the bottom. The sludge come from fibre, and the remnants of dead microbes- and yes, formaldehyde does encourage this. However, unless you have designed the tank well (sloping bottom to the pick up, several well-spaced 360/180 degree spray nozzles) and clean the tank throughly at pump out, there will always be sludging. The more often you pump out, the less "crap" in the bottom, so to speak! Hire boats fare a lot better in this respect, from my experience.

 

Microbial treatment systems work well, if there is a good throughput of air (see earlier). IN the USA and other countries, onboard waste treatment plants effectively decompose the waste so it is in a fit state to be discharged overboard- using settlement, aeration and bacteria. However, they are large- and currrently wouldn't be allowed to discharge the treated effluent into our watercourses. However, would then be perfect to empty at a pump out!

 

Incidently, my most successful treatment, using my porta potti, seems to be 50ml Elsan Double Blue in the bottom tank (low dose) with a relatively cheap disinfectant (150ml) in the top tank- diluted to 15 litres (a 1:100 solution). Seems more effective than the "pink" rinse solution.

 

I suppose I should go to do some work now! Off to Wrenbury!

 

Hi Mark,

Did you notice any difference in performance between Oderloss and Bio-magic ?? Ive tried the former but never the latter.

Cheers

Les

Edited August 29, 2008 by Lesd

[Smelly]

Well well, I nearly started a thread on this on Wednesday but didn't and looked at the elsan site instead...

 

We were told by the lady at anglo Welsh at Wooton that elsan had stopped seeling blue and just sell the orgainc stuff now (not according to their website), which is what I've bought. I wonder whether it'll have issues with my blue sodden 17 litre Thetford holding tank? It's been said elsewhere on the forum it's unwise to change but using blue (the only locally avaialable solution) has been a necessity until now. I would like to change but I'm a bit nervous, the bathroom's bad enough sometimes when tesco's runs out of decent cat litter.

[Big COL]

This is a good question and one that I know nothing about other than personal experience which I will bore you all with here.

 

I lived on my boat (with 2 holding tanks) for 3 years. For the first 18 months we had no problem with smells at all. Then at one pump out, without being asked, the tank had a cuppla litres of blue thrown in it after a pump out. Within 2 weeks it stank to high heaven which it had NEVER done previosly. Over the next 3 months or so the smell slowly subsided. After 6 months it had gone completely. We never put anything down the toilets other than human waste and only ever cleaned them with water. Never any chemicals

 

A few months after this Mrs Gibbo changed to a new model who put toilet duck down the bog. It started to stink again. Took a few months for the smell to go.

 

My own experience is that if you put any form of chemical down them it makes them stink. If you only put human waste down them they are fine.

 

But I know sod all about the subject.

 

Gibbo

 

Hi Gibbo

Only animals and humans included that eat meat ( carnivores) does their waste smell. How you treat this is whether you are to deal with an aerobic or anaerobic situation.

[blackrose]

Hi Gibbo

Only animals and humans included that eat meat ( carnivores) does their waste smell. How you treat this is whether you are to deal with an aerobic or anaerobic situation.

 

I can't quite make this out. Are you saying that a vegan's shit don't stink?

 

I beg to differ.