I need to pay someone to fix my electrics

[Karen Lea Rainey]

28 minutes ago, WotEver said:

If you grip the head with a pair of mole grips (if there’s enough metal left to do so) and pull hard while turning, does anything happen?

No, the bolt is held in place by what feels like a nut on the inside of the casing

[WotEver]

17 minutes ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

No, the bolt is held in place by what feels like a nut on the inside of the casing

In that case I think Sam’s idea of cutting a hole in the back of the casing is your only sensible way forward. You could fit a small aluminium plate over it afterwards if you wanted to keep the muck out, but that wouldn’t be essential. 

[boaty boatman]

Cut the head off the bolt with a small grinder, remove starter motor then remove rest of bolt

[Karen Lea Rainey]

8 minutes ago, boaty boatman said:

Cut the head off the bolt with a small grinder, remove starter motor then remove rest of bolt

But the remainder of the bolt and nut will be left inside the casing, you can't leave it inside can you? Plus how would you then tighten up the lower bolt holding the starter motor,or would the starter stay in place with just one top bolt and no more than a centrering  bolt for a second holding point.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Karen Lea Rainey

[WotEver]

Just now, Karen Lea Rainey said:

But the remainder of the bolt and nut will be left inside the casing, how would you then tighten up the lower bolt holding the starter motor,or would the starter stay in place with just one top bolt and no more than a centrering  bolt for a second holding point.

You’d fish out the remainder of the bolt once the starter motor was off but as you point out, how would you fit a new bolt?

Sam’s suggestion appears to me to be your only way forward. 

[boaty boatman]

Once old bolt out, drill hole right through casing and fit a new, longer nut and bolt

[WotEver]

9 minutes ago, boaty boatman said:

Once old bolt out, drill hole right through casing and fit a new, longer nut and bolt

I guess you could but I wonder if the back of the casing is strong enough to take the nut? It could be quite a thin casting at that point. 

The net result isn’t much different to Sam’s suggestion I suppose, although yours wouldn’t leave a hole for muck to ingress onto the flywheel, IF the casting is sufficiently strong. 

[boaty boatman]

To do this properly you need to remove the gearbox and fit the new starter motor to the engine, then refit the gearbox. 

To do it cheaply ( ie bodge), drill right through , and fit nut and bolt or get nearest size thread ( M8 or M10) from B&Q that will go all way through. Fit nuts at each end. Use felt washer and steel washer on casing side.  

Personally, I would remove gearbox and fit properly to engine as it is quite easy to do ( even for the novice) and get a recon starter ( rather than 2nd hand or scrapper) 

And if you remove the box, you don't need to cut bolt head off, as you will gain access to the nut

[WotEver]

17 minutes ago, boaty boatman said:

And if you remove the box, you don't need to cut bolt head off, as you will gain access to the nut

Which, at the end of the day, might actually be simpler I guess.

[Boater Sam]

Unfortunately I think to whole flywheel housing would have to come off too, which is also the rear mountings.

Anything dropped inside will be very difficult to retrieve, the flywheel runs close to the casing. 

If I were closer I would go and have a look, never seen one like this and had many in bits over the years.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Boater Sam
added more

[boaty boatman]

Access is required to the engine - if anything drops inside ( which it probably won't) retrieve with telescopic magnet stick (couple of quid from shops and ebay)

If you have any kids they would like retrieving the nut - bit like hook-a-duck!

[Karen Lea Rainey]

I have just rang RCR to try to get an engineer / mechanic to attend in the next week or so, they will ring me tomorrow for a detailed description of the work. I am currently not a member.

I have a new starter motor coming tomorrow same model  Lucas 27431 A

Whilst they are here they could wire up my ignition barrel and anything else that needs doing.

I know they are not cheap and don't expect it to be. Is there no one on this site that could do the job / probably a couple of days well paid work.

[Boater Sam]

Chris Jones 07887565531 May be close enough, well experienced guy, known him years.

[Tony Brooks]

Is it possible that the gearbox casing is making the nut difficult to locate. I have had them (not on  1.8) where the gap between the  flywheel housing and gearbox is not much more than a spanner thickness.

[Karen Lea Rainey]

1 hour ago, Boater Sam said:

Chris Jones 07887565531 May be close enough, well experienced guy, known him years.

Chris can't do it, although he's from Stoke, which is close enough.He specialises in beta, and prm gearbox insurance work.

He's looking out for a n other. Thanks though

57 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Is it possible that the gearbox casing is making the nut difficult to locate. I have had them (not on  1.8) where the gap between the  flywheel housing and gearbox is not much more than a spanner thickness.

Couldn't  feel anything underneath but will have to have a look next week now, ive got work inbetween now.

[Karen Lea Rainey]

Could it be that the bolt is threaded into the housing casing itself and there is no nut behind it? I've seen nuts that wont work onto the  thread to come out because of rust/ debris, going back to the picture of the starter motor that came off (see post 87), could it be possible?

[Boater Sam]

If you suspect that the thread has stripped, lever the motor away whilst turning the bolt. I think its unlikely, if it was threaded into either the engine back plate or the ally housing it would be a 3/8 UNC thread, a coarse thread, unlikely to strip but worth a try. If not, cut that hole.

[Karen Lea Rainey]

Got the damn starter motor  off at last, took a small grinder to the remaining housing of the starter. Ground a bit of the casing off, leavered from the gap between the bell housing and starter with a screwdriver and tried to get some grip / thread holding on the bolt. Eventually used a bigger hammer and chisel pry a bit more gap between the two faces, then got a thread going on the nut, success I,'ve done it.

Now put the new starter on, bolt it up no problems so far, bolt on the cables to batteries  and remember to add in the negative cable to the top stud in the of the starter motor.

Turn the key and still got a click /clunk, 

The batteries are  new, the cables are clean and tight, what's gone wrong here I ask myself,

Have I connected the solenoid up correctly,

positive battery post to the feed in to the solenoid, the negative cable goes directly from the bell housing to the negative post on the battery,

The only other cable on the solenoid goes to the key switch on  a Lucas replacement ignition barrel  "position 2",

The second post on the solenoid nearest the starter has the normal braided wire attached to the starter motor.

 

What's gone wrong I,m stumped again now!

Edited April 25, 2018 by Karen Lea Rainey

[Tony Brooks]

I don't think you have gone wrong. The clunk suggest the negative/earth circuit is at least partially OK because the solenoid is operating. If you had a bad connection I would expect what is known as machine gunning but you do not describe that.

Get someone to hold the key in the start position while you feel all along the main positive and negative cable runs, including battery terminals for any signs of warmth. If you find any then sort out the poor/dity connection or undersized cable and try again.

I think you said the engine turns over by hand so its not seized.

Did this starter by any chance come form an Ebay bargain?

Does the pinion have the correct number of teeth?

Is the flywheel the correct one for the engine?

I know you have no way of answering those questions but they may give a clue. I suspect the starter so take it off, jump lead from battery negative to case. Another from battery positive to the large stud connection on the solenoid. Foot very firmly on starter body and use a screwdriver to very firmly bridge between the positive jump lead clip and the small "ignition switch" terminal on the starter. If the motor runs then its not at fault but it will try to spin under your foot.

 

[Boater Sam]

If the pre-engaging pinion on the starter cannot travel fully, the contacts in the solenoid cannot connect. Take the starter off and run it as suggested on the ground.

If it works then, measure where the pinion gear is in relation to the mounting flange when it is in its fully travelled position, compare to the position of the ring gear on the flywheel.

Are you sure it is a BMC 1.5 or 1.8 starter? ( they are the same, either will do ) And not off something else all together.

[Karen Lea Rainey]

Hi Tony, 

Yes the engine turns over by hand, a bit of pressure needed but it turns quite freely,

The starter was an ebay bargain. New price £128  from electro start at Daventry. Model SL261   CODED  To fit type 27431  and MATCHES my code on the outer casing. Desribed as used in sherpa diesel marine engines 1.8 D.

I did not count the teeth on the cog, nor can I clarify the flywheel suitability. I only have the previous owners word for it that the engine "starts and drives", albeit it wouldn't on the day due to what I thought was a knackered starter.

[Boater Sam]

Electrostart are a reputable company, I have dealt with them. It will be correct.

To go back a bit, by levering the old starter away from the engine, you got the damaged thread to re-engage and unscrew? If so the engine back plate is one that I have never seen, with a threaded hole for the bottom starter bolt. Mine and all I have seen have a through hole from the starter side right through to the rear of the ally housing, a long bolt and a nut.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Boater Sam
added

[Karen Lea Rainey]

Yes Sam , the bottom bolt was a 3" bolt which threaded directly into the housing, the top bolt was a through bolt and nut, I managed to get the bottom bolt out and rethread the bolt hole with the bolt taken from the very old starter motor found under a boat seat, that was lucky, it took the bolt well with a bit of grease on its own, and then I put it through the starter motor and it went straight in the threads.

[alan_fincher]

On 11/04/2018 at 17:16, Boater Sam said:

Yes, it was probably a Sherpa or Marina engine but they are all the same, basically. Even the later Turkish engines are the same.

 

Was the 1800 B series diesel ever used in the Marina?

I have really only ever heard of it going in the Sherpa.

Most sources seem, to say the diesel used in a Marina was only 1489cc, (which surely if true must have been a very sluggish car indeed!)

http://www.motorbase.com/vehicle/profile/morris-marina-diesel/

Extract from Wikipedia article

Engines

• 1971–1980 - 1275 cc A-Series Straight-4, 60 hp (45 kW) at 5250 rpm and 69 ft·lbf (94 Nm) at 2500 rpm
• 1971–1978 - 1798 cc B-Series Straight-4
• 1971–1978 - 1798 cc B-Series Straight-4 Twin carburettor
• 1977–1980 - 1489 cc Straight-4 Diesel
• 1978–1980 - 1695 cc O-Series Straight-4

[Tony Brooks]

I know at least some 1.5 back plate, flywheel housing and flywheels are not interchangeable with a 1.8.  From memory the 1.8 has the starter too far away from the flywheel when a 1.5 flywheel is fitted so a 1.8 flywheel on a 1.5. (assuming it will fit into the flywheel housing, which I doubt) may well baulk the pinion. Likewise a 1.5 flywheel on a 1.8 might only engage the very tip of the teeth and jamb.

I fear its coming to gearbox and flywheel housing off to see what is gong on time if the starter runs off the engine.