WETWAB's not Winding Holes

[MtB]

 

The land underneath the water.

 

Yes I think if in turning I poke the bow of my boat into the CRT water over the marina's land, the best they can do is sue me for trespass. The damages a court would award would hopefully reflect the losses incurred by the marina, i.e. none.

[Horace42]

 

I'm not sure if you meant "it wouldn't be a problem" but you've typed "it would be a problem" and I agree. It wouldn't be a problem if the boundary was a straight line and there was suitable bank to attach a chain, float, rope etc to it but its too much of an assumption to make.

I think I was trying to echo your thoughts when I said 'it would be a problem' to agree when you said it would be 'impractical/impossible in many circumstances'.

I was thinking 'impractical' in terms of marinas where it would cause a considerable nuisance to every legitimate visitor to the marina just to keep out the occasional 'winder' - but as you say it wouldn't be a problem to do if it was a straight line.......

.

[Paul C]

I'd be interested to hear from a marina operator or anyone else, why a boat turning competently* within its boundary, would be objected to.

 

 

* ie assuming no contact with other boats, damage to the bank, excess wash, revs, noise, smoke, etc. After all we're not necessarily talking about entering the marina itself, just using a small portion of the entrance which common sense dictates is well protected from boat impact and away from moored boats etc anyway.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Paul C

[Horace42]

R

 

The land underneath the water.

That is part of my dilemma, I am not landing as such, just using CRT waters, but is it CRT's for the purpose of deciding my being allowed to use it for turning.

[Paul C]

R

That is part of my dilemma, I am not landing as such, just using CRT waters, but is it CRT's for the purpose of deciding my being allowed to use it for turning.

 

You've lost me now, what do you mean you're landing - mooring or stopping at the marina?

 

If you've above the marina's land, you're using THEIR waters, not CRT's waters - a "waters" is defined as the water (it can be any water) directly above the relevant land. If you're above it, then its between you and the marina operator - nothing to do with CRT.

[MtB]

I'd be interested to hear from a marina operator or anyone else, why a boat turning competently* within its boundary, would be objected to.

 

 

* ie assuming no contact with other boats, damage to the bank, excess wash, revs, noise, smoke, etc.

 

 

I suspect the reason is that the incompetent boaters turning only reveal themselves as such once committed to the manoeuvre. And by then the bank crashing, excess revving etc is already going on!

[Paul C]

ETA: I think Mike's post '26 is also muddled, since he talks about CRT waters over marina land.

[Horace42]

he

 

 

I'd be interested to hear from a marina operator or anyone else, why a boat turning competently* within its boundary, would be objected to.

 

 

* ie assuming no contact with other boats, damage to the bank, excess wash, revs, noise, smoke, etc. After all we're not necessarily talking about entering the marina itself, just using a small portion of the entrance which common sense dictates is well protected from boat impact and away from moored boats etc anyway.

I vaguely recall some time ago that an owner blamed silting up of the marina entrance being due to boats using it to turn - and expected CRT to send a dredger to clear it.

[MtB]

ETA: I think Mike's post '26 is also muddled, since he talks about CRT waters over marina land.

 

 

No I'm not muddled. I was answering the question "who owns the water in the marina?"

 

Do you hold the marina owns the water in their marina? I hold that CRT owns the water filling the marina. CRT supplied it after all.

 

 

(Spelling edit.)

Edited December 13, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[Paul C]

 

 

I suspect the reason is that the incompetent boaters turning only reveal themselves as such once committed to the manoeuvre. And by then the bank crashing, excess revving etc is already going on!

 

Yes agreed, but the thing you'd rightly ask not to occur would be the bank crashing, excess revving etc, not the turning itself, so long as it was possible to competently turn there.

[vicafloat]

Having moored for some years near to "Dor" I agree that people turn where it is quite clearly against the rules,and the official and

good winding hole is no more than 200 yds further on. This is sheer idleness or bloody mindness (if there is such a word!) and is

almost exclusively done by private boaters,not hirers.

[Paul C]

 

 

No I'm not muddled. I was answering the question "who owns the water in the marina?"

 

Do you hold the marina owns the water in their marina? I hold that CRT owns the water fulling the marina. CRT supplied it after all.

 

I am not 100% on this (would be handy for alternate views) but as far as I understand, nobody can "own" water such as this. You can own the land and facilities, such as the marina bed, the banking; and you have responsibilities attached to its connection to the canal system, such as leak-proofness, but you don't physically own the molecules of water present at any given time. And also there would be an agreement from CRT to guarantee the level (within bounds).

 

Thus, if there were a breach elsewhere (say....a neighbouring marina on the same pound), you couldn't sue them for the theft of the water itself, but you could sue CRT for civil damages due to the lack of depth, and CRT could countersue the marina which had a breach, for failing to maintain the water level, etc. irrespective of which molecules of water flowed in or out of which marina or canal.

The initial fill of a marina is effectively a service which is charged at a rate proportional to its size, but you're paying for the service of filling it, not the actual water itself.

Having moored for some years near to "Dor" I agree that people turn where it is quite clearly against the rules,and the official and

good winding hole is no more than 200 yds further on. This is sheer idleness or bloody mindness (if there is such a word!) and is

almost exclusively done by private boaters,not hirers.

 

Which rule - trespass? Is the border clearly defined?

[tommytelford]

I was turning in a "no turning hole" when somebody yelled "Oi you can't turn there"

 

My answer was "Sorry mate you're wrong. I just have "

 

I didn't hear his reply as I was on my way by that time

[Horace42]

 

You've lost me now, what do you mean you're landing - mooring or stopping at the marina?

 

If you've above the marina's land, you're using THEIR waters, not CRT's waters - a "waters" is defined as the water (it can be any water) directly above the relevant land. If you're above it, then its between you and the marina operator - nothing to do with CRT.

Thanks for that bit of info, but we are talking about turning round and thus using just enough at the entrance for this purpose, and since this is where CRT land ends and the marina's start, we might need to know exactly where. Is there a general rule for this?

[MtB]

Another approach is to turn the engine OFF and turn the boat using the long shaft.

 

The marina staff probably won't notice as you'll be doing it in silence!

[Paul C]

Thanks for that bit of info, but we are talking about turning round and thus using just enough at the entrance for this purpose, and since this is where CRT land ends and the marina's start, we might need to know exactly where. Is there a general rule for this?

 

 

AFAIK its all to do with "trespass". If its a simple case of merely trespassing, then not knowing where the CRT land ended and the marina's land started would be a perfectly robust defence, if its a case of simply putting the nose of the boat into an entrance. Obviously this excludes cases where you take the piss.

 

Alongside this, the sign which prohibits a wide-arching blanket case such as "no turning" could be ignored, since its possible to turn in a smaller boat without trespassing. Effectively, "no turning" is too vague, even if it has a CRT sticker on it. It would need to specify in more detail, for example if it clearly defined the border of the land or inferred it my mentioning a maximum boat length, over which it were inevitible the nose had to go over the border.

[dor]

 

 

I suspect the reason is that the incompetent boaters turning only reveal themselves as such once committed to the manoeuvre. And by then the bank crashing, excess revving etc is already going on!

Sometimes the actions of apparently experienced boaters beggars belief. I referred earlier to the C&RT sign on our moorings saying no turning; this was put there due to damage to moored boats despite the official winding hole being only 200 yards away. I had one private boat turning, and he wasn't even turning in the widest bit, but opposite my boat. Impact seemed inevitable, so his (presumed) wife appeared in the well deck brandishing the boat pole, fully intending to use it on my boat to fend off; she presumably thought the boat was unoccupied. I gave her the benefit of my opinion on what she was about to do and after much shouting from her to the steerer, he backed up and went the whole 200 yards up to the winding hole.

 

This is why, despite some of the comments above, there may be a good reason for having a "no winding sign".

[Paul C]

Sometimes the actions of apparently experienced boaters beggars belief. I referred earlier to the C&RT sign on our moorings saying no turning; this was put there due to damage to moored boats despite the official winding hole being only 200 yards away. I had one private boat turning, and he wasn't even turning in the widest bit, but opposite my boat. Impact seemed inevitable, so his (presumed) wife appeared in the well deck brandishing the boat pole, fully intending to use it on my boat to fend off; she presumably thought the boat was unoccupied. I gave her the benefit of my opinion on what she was about to do and after much shouting from her to the steerer, he backed up and went the whole 200 yards up to the winding hole.

 

This is why, despite some of the comments above, there may be a good reason for having a "no winding sign".

 

I think its worth taking into account the fact that there's 2 winding holes - or what were winding holes....since one is now dedicated to mooring and "no winding" signs placed there. Obviously with the 2 of them, its quite reasonable to dedicate one to what is now offside long term moorings and the other to winding. Also its worth mentioning that both are "oversized" in that it must be at least 100ft wide or more here, so a boat could easily wind without interfering with the moored boats anyway (if they were competent in doing so.....)

 

Its quite different to a situation where there isn't a winding hole or other suitable turning point within many miles; and where its simply a marina or boatyard entrance, not an online mooring site (so, turning by barely competent crew may result in contact with eg a concrete entrance, not others boats - obviously there's still an amount of damage but protection could be put in, such as large wooden sleepers etc etc)

[system 4-50]

Sometimes the actions of apparently experienced boaters beggars belief. I referred earlier to the C&RT sign on our moorings saying no turning; this was put there due to damage to moored boats despite the official winding hole being only 200 yards away. I had one private boat turning, and he wasn't even turning in the widest bit, but opposite my boat. Impact seemed inevitable, so his (presumed) wife appeared in the well deck brandishing the boat pole, fully intending to use it on my boat to fend off; she presumably thought the boat was unoccupied. I gave her the benefit of my opinion on what she was about to do and after much shouting from her to the steerer, he backed up and went the whole 200 yards up to the winding hole.

 

This is why, despite some of the comments above, there may be a good reason for having a "no winding sign".

Unfortunately that no winding sign is just too small. I wound there years ago and largely completed the move before noticing the sign.

[dor]

 

I think its worth taking into account the fact that there's 2 winding holes - or what were winding holes....since one is now dedicated to mooring and "no winding" signs placed there. Obviously with the 2 of them, its quite reasonable to dedicate one to what is now offside long term moorings and the other to winding. Also its worth mentioning that both are "oversized" in that it must be at least 100ft wide or more here, so a boat could easily wind without interfering with the moored boats anyway (if they were competent in doing so.....)

 

Its quite different to a situation where there isn't a winding hole or other suitable turning point within many miles; and where its simply a marina or boatyard entrance, not an online mooring site (so, turning by barely competent crew may result in contact with eg a concrete entrance, not others boats - obviously there's still an amount of damage but protection could be put in, such as large wooden sleepers etc etc)

 

The wide at Henhull has never been designated as a winding hole. Many years ago Nicholson's showed it as such, but removed their mark on instruction from, I presume, BW.

 

I don't have a problem with fellow moorers or other boaters I know and trust; I know they will respect the boats that are moored there. But unfortunately there are too many incompetent boaters who have little idea how to turn their boat except to put the tiller hard over and apply maximum revs. As most on here will know, if you look at the prop wash with a tiller at 45 degrees, you will spot the point at which you can turn a boat in just about its own length.

 

If you do it that way I am happy for you to do so; if you don't understand how to turn your boat properly, don't get upset if I shout at you for attempting to damage my boat (a regrettably too frequent occurence).

 

And yes System, I was surprised how small the sign is; it is almost as if BW didn't want to upset the hire base down the road that frequently turned their boats there, because it was too much to go an extra five minutes to turn in the winding hole.

[Paul C]

 

The wide at Henhull has never been designated as a winding hole. Many years ago Nicholson's showed it as such, but removed their mark on instruction from, I presume, BW.

 

I don't have a problem with fellow moorers or other boaters I know and trust; I know they will respect the boats that are moored there. But unfortunately there are too many incompetent boaters who have little idea how to turn their boat except to put the tiller hard over and apply maximum revs. As most on here will know, if you look at the prop wash with a tiller at 45 degrees, you will spot the point at which you can turn a boat in just about its own length.

 

If you do it that way I am happy for you to do so; if you don't understand how to turn your boat properly, don't get upset if I shout at you for attempting to damage my boat (a regrettably too frequent occurence).

 

And yes System, I was surprised how small the sign is; it is almost as if BW didn't want to upset the hire base down the road that frequently turned their boats there, because it was too much to go an extra five minutes to turn in the winding hole.

 

Never??? I don't know for sure if it was hundreds of years ago, or what the historical reason for 2 deliberately wide bits so close is...and whether this predated online moorings being there. Would be interesting to know the reason/history of it though.