Don't arrive at Sharpness Lock without a CRT licence

[matty40s]

I regularly move boats from CRT or NT waters on to EA waters, move until I find a manned lock and purchase the short term licence for continued passage. I've done this for years too.

I have never considered checking whether I can't buy licences at manned Thames locks, the River Wey entrance or Brentford , I just arrive and buy one.

This is a ridiculous move, arranged by someone sat in an office or in a blue sky thinking meeting , just to tidy up paperwork.

[Captain Pegg]

I regularly move boats from CRT or NT waters on to EA waters, move until I find a manned lock and purchase the short term licence for continued passage. I've done this for years too.

I have never considered checking whether I can't buy licences at manned Thames locks, the River Wey entrance or Brentford , I just arrive and buy one.

This is a ridiculous move, arranged by someone sat in an office or in a blue sky thinking meeting , just to tidy up paperwork.

I don't think it's a ridiculous move but taking it at face value it is badly executed. The CRT website page for Sharpness still says you can buy a licence on arrival so checking isn't necessarily going to help anyway. Surely the staff at Sharpness are online so why can't they issue a licence electronically? If they aren't online then that should have been a pre-requisite before withdrawing the old system.

 

JP

[Geo]

I regularly move boats from CRT or NT waters on to EA waters, move until I find a manned lock and purchase the short term licence for continued passage. I've done this for years too.

I have never considered checking whether I can't buy licences at manned Thames locks, the River Wey entrance or Brentford , I just arrive and buy one.

This is a ridiculous move, arranged by someone sat in an office or in a blue sky thinking meeting , just to tidy up paperwork.

 

There are differences between CRT & EA on most if not all EA rivers there is the right to navigate and the piece of paper is only a registration of the boat. On CRT waters on waters that are bona fide canals there is no right of navigation and it is the licence that gives that right.

 

 

is there not a law about them granting Safe Haven. I would think the lock keepers in particular and the CRT manager who dreamt this stupid idea from behind his computer would be open to manslaughter charges if the vessel floundered and people died as a result of their action.

 

Once again I am outraged by the actions of CRT. Not fit for purpose.

 

I would be interested on Nigel Moore and Dave Mayall's take on the law in these circumstances.

 

There is a right to safe haven, I have a feeling it is a common law one. But it might have been written into statute by now but I am not aware of a particular statute.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Geo

[PaddingtonBear]

Instead of moaning and groaning and talking about maybe's why don't one of you contact the local waterways manager for comment and then discuss it?

[matty40s]

 

There are differences between CRT & EA on most if not all EA rivers there is the right to navigate and the piece of paper is only a registration of the boat. On CRT waters on waters that are bona fide canals there is no right of navigation and it is the licence that gives that right.

 

.

as per usual missing the point entirely, just to suit your own agenda.

You will not get up Brentford without purchasing a licence, something that it has always been possible to do on arriving.

You will also not get through an EA controlled manned Thames lock without the prerequisite purchase of licence/registration/paper/whatever. However, you can purchase it there.

Instead of moaning and groaning and talking about maybe's why don't one of you contact the local waterways manager for comment and then discuss it?

 

The OP has already contacted CRT and included Richard Parry.

This is a discussion forum, we are allowed to m&g...

[Naughty Cal]

and a well run navigation authority would have the means to issue you a licence when you arrive, even the EA can do it

They didn't manage very well when we were on The Fens last summer. We spent half of the holiday with no visitor licence due to a relief lockie not being able to issue us a licence at Hermitage Lock

As you can buy licences online it surely isn't difficult to just buy one on the day that you undertake the trip to Sharpness.

[matty40s]

 

As you can buy licences online it surely isn't difficult to just buy one on the day that you undertake the trip to Sharpness.

with all the fun of the passage on wide waters and the knowledge that you have always bought one on arrival previously, why should you....especially if you have no internet signal during passage.

[Naughty Cal]

with all the fun of the passage on wide waters and the knowledge that you have always bought one on arrival previously, why should you....especially if you have no internet signal during passage.

Because you now need too?

[john6767]

They didn't manage very well when we were on The Fens last summer. We spent half of the holiday with no visitor licence due to a relief lockie not being able to issue us a licence at Hermitage Lock

As you can buy licences online it surely isn't difficult to just buy one on the day that you undertake the trip to Sharpness.

You certainly could do that, but right now you would not know that you needed to. From CRT website on the Port of Sharpness page

 

 

 

We recommend you purchase licences on line, and in advance of your journey, to save time, however visiting craft may also pay by cash or cheque on arrival at the port.

[Athy]

I don't think it's a ridiculous move but taking it at face value it is badly executed. The CRT website page for Sharpness still says you can buy a licence on arrival so checking isn't necessarily going to help anyway. Surely the staff at Sharpness are online so why can't they issue a licence electronically? If they aren't online then that should have been a pre-requisite before withdrawing the old system.

 

JP

More to the point, why can they not accept proper folding money any more? Why have the authorities instigated a policy which makes life more difficult for boaters? Should they not be trying to make it easier?

[Naughty Cal]

More to the point, why can they not accept proper folding money any more? Why have the authorities instigated a policy which makes life more difficult for boaters? Should they not be trying to make it easier?

It isn't just CRT. We found the Broads Authority reluctant to let us buy a visitors licence when we entered this year via Mutford Lock. It was expected that we would have bought one online prior to us entering the Broads. They made an ordeal of coming to the Yacht Station office to accept our money for use of the lock and the 7 day licence.

 

ETA: On the back of this experience this summer we will be buying our Scottish Canals visitor licence for the Caledonian well in advance of our visit in July.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Naughty Cal

[matty40s]

Because you now need too?

....but they forgot to tell anyone...

[Geo]

as per usual missing the point entirely, just to suit your own agenda.

You will not get up Brentford without purchasing a licence, something that it has always been possible to do on arriving.

You will also not get through an EA controlled manned Thames lock without the prerequisite purchase of licence/registration/paper/whatever. However, you can purchase it there.

 

I think you missed the point on EA waters you have a right to navigate until you get to a point where they demand you register on CRT waters you have no right to navigate at all and by being there you are breaking the law.

[matty40s]

 

I think you missed the point on EA waters you have a right to navigate until you get to a point where they demand you register on CRT waters you have no right to navigate at all and by being there you are breaking the law.

 

...thought you were going to work....

Edited December 9, 2016 by matty40s

[hounddog]

Just one point to add to the mix. I know for a fact that last year someone was refused entry to Limehouse because they didn't have the paperwork for their CRT license. Although they were legally licensed the lock keeper refused to check.

 

This despite the fact that they had children on board - not that this makes a legal difference but it seems to me to be an indicator of an 'us and them' culture and a gung-ho attitude to basic principles of safety and humanity.

 

Surprised? No.

 

Nasty little country.

[Captain Pegg]

More to the point, why can they not accept proper folding money any more? Why have the authorities instigated a policy which makes life more difficult for boaters? Should they not be trying to make it easier?

Because they have a duty to balance the service to the boater with value to the taxpayer.

 

Cutting out process while maintaining the service is precisely what I think they should be doing although I don't think that appears to be the objective here. The service is the issuing of a licence and as a customer facing organisation I don't think it would be acceptable to withdraw it and place the onus on the boater; particularly at a place like Sharpness where I suspect a number of short term visitors to CRT waters enter the system.

 

But Athy, what is difficult about electronic payment?

 

JP

Edited December 9, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[Naughty Cal]

Because they have a duty to balance the service to the boater with value to the taxpayer.

 

Cutting out process while maintaining the service is precisely what I think they should be doing although I don't think that appears to be the objective here. The service is the issuing of a licence and as a customer facing organisation I don't think it would be acceptable to withdraw it and place the onus on the boater; particularly at a place like Sharpness where I suspect a number of short term visitors to CRT waters enter the system.

 

But Athy, what is difficult about electronic payment?

 

JP

Nothing.

[Athy]

 

But Athy, what is difficult about electronic payment?

 

 

But, Peggy, what is difficult about cash payment?

[Bee]

If this is the case, that you can be turned round and sent away then it is completely unacceptable, It really needs to be clarified by CRT. If you arrive at any port I can think of, Calais, Dunkirk, and some of the South coast harbours I have sailed into then the authorities there will sort out payment and all the other stuff, no one has ever said they will not let you enter because they can't be arsed to take the money.

[PaulG]

By not assuming and checking before you start? That IMO is one way.

Even if the OP had checked before he started, as you suggest, he would have found the following information for Sharpness Dock on the CRT website.

"We recommend you purchase licences on line, and in advance of your journey, to save time, however visiting craft may also pay by cash or cheque on arrival at the port."

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/our-regions/south-wales-and-severn-waterways/sharpness-port

 

I have every sympathy with the OP. The Bristol Channel is a dangerous place; it's not somewhere where you want to be suddenly forced into making an unplanned passage due to being denied entry into a port.

 

CRT need to address this problem before there is an accident.

Edited December 9, 2016 by PaulG

[Dave_P]

I'm a little amazed by some of the responses on here. Even if this policy was well publicised and had been in place for years, surely the right thing to do if a an unlicensed boat arrives is to offer it safe harbour. Why? Basic human decency! Something which seems to be on the decline.

[hounddog]

Absolutely. It's a question of life or death not some wrangling over the latest CRT logo change.

 

I also think it outrageous that the lock keeper is complicit. it's his responsibility in the end, CRT simply manage him.

 

How does it work? does he come down a ladder outside the lock? lock you up then down again if you don't have the paperwork.

 

CRT really have overstepped a line here.

[Naughty Cal]

If this is the case, that you can be turned round and sent away then it is completely unacceptable, It really needs to be clarified by CRT. If you arrive at any port I can think of, Calais, Dunkirk, and some of the South coast harbours I have sailed into then the authorities there will sort out payment and all the other stuff, no one has ever said they will not let you enter because they can't be arsed to take the money.

Difference being you don't need a licence to enter those ports.

Absolutely. It's a question of life or death not some wrangling over the latest CRT logo change.

 

I also think it outrageous that the lock keeper is complicit. it's his responsibility in the end, CRT simply manage him.

 

How does it work? does he come down a ladder outside the lock? lock you up then down again if you don't have the paperwork.

 

CRT really have overstepped a line here.

If the passage is really so dangerous then you would think that having your paperwork sorted and in order prior to setting off would be advantageous.

[Guest]

I don't think it's a ridiculous move but taking it at face value it is badly executed. The CRT website page for Sharpness still says you can buy a licence on arrival so checking isn't necessarily going to help anyway. Surely the staff at Sharpness are online so why can't they issue a licence electronically? If they aren't online then that should have been a pre-requisite before withdrawing the old system.

 

JP

To my mind, and in this day and age, checking on the website is a very good way of planning the trip. If this is the case, and CRT CBA updating the website, then the problem lies with them.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Guest

[matty40s]

 

If the passage is really so dangerous then you would think that having your paperwork sorted and in order prior to setting off would be advantageous.

Boater has done the passage many times.

Boater has always purchased licence at Sharpness on arrival.

Boater checks the CRT website and continues as normal.

Boater is denied access.

 

What part of this cant you understand???