NAA Split from: UPDATE ON LICENSING PROCESS FOR BOATS WITHOUT HOME MOORINGS

[Higgs]

 

One reason a list doesn't exist, might be that 99% of boaters don't care whether the marina they moor in has an NAA, because they're planning on using the boat for boating anyway, so they're getting a 12 month licence, so the cost-saving in not getting that licence isn't there. With such a small audience for the information, there is no incentive to compile it. I'm happy to be corrected on the numbers, and if this thread shows a big demand for it, and someone wants to do it and share the info, a place can be found on this website for it. I do also appreciate there may be a demand for those only interested in cruising for half the year, ie 6 month licence, 6 months laid up.

 

 

I've no idea how many people would make use of or want the information. My guess would be that places in such marinas may be in short supply, and those that are already in them may not be incline to mention their marina.

[Paul C]

 

 

I've no idea how many people would make use of or want the information.

 

I have a good idea, based on the responses on this and other threads, about the topic.

[Higgs]

As has been pointed out CRT would not be wanting to give out such information. Somebody earlier in the thread (you perhaps) mentioned that utility companies have to tell you about the best deal (or words to that effect). This is true but they don't have to tell you about the oppositions better deals.

 

Part of the problem is also you are wanting information nobody (other than perhaps other forumites) will necessarily want to give you as in many cases it will be to their detriment. If they pay under an NAA agreement they have no reason to tell you in case you don't use their services and if they don't need a "licence" they have no reason to tell you in case you start asking why their moorings aren't 9% cheaper thean X marina who do pay an NAA.

 

 

I accept that people may not want to give out information. Customer, though, must be given information that if it had been withheld cut effect the decision of the customer to make an alternative choice. PPI is a case in point, where customers were not given information correctly and other information was withheld.

[Jerra]

 

 

I've no idea how many people would make use of or want the information. My guess would be that places in such marinas may be in short supply, and those that are already in them may not be incline to mention their marina.

Surely only those who never or very rarely go boating would want to be without a licence. The hassel of getting a licence every time you want to leave the marina would be too much for most.

 

I suppose on second thoughts there may be some who want to have no licence and nip out for trips (say to a favourite pub) at times when they think their will be no boat checkers around.

 

 

Customer, though, must be given information that if it had been withheld cut effect the decision of the customer to make an alternative choice.

So when we had the jewellers shops and a customer come in we were supposed to say "go down the road Fred sells it much more cheaply "?

 

I don't think so.

 

[Higgs]

 

I have a good idea, based on the responses on this and other threads, about the topic.

 

 

I don't think you should rely on this forum to supply you with that information. If I did, I would be pretty disheartened by now; I'm not. It's uphill, but that's all. Makes it more interesting...to me.

Surely only those who never or very rarely go boating would want to be without a licence. The hassel of getting a licence every time you want to leave the marina would be too much for most.

 

I suppose on second thoughts there may be some who want to have no licence and nip out for trips (say to a favourite pub) at times when they think their will be no boat checkers around.

So when we had the jewellers shops and a customer come in we were supposed to say "go down the road Fred sells it much more cheaply "?

 

I don't think so.

 

 

 

No, you walk down the street and shop around. Don't you?

Edited March 11, 2016 by Higgs

[Paul C]

Insurance companies aren't obliged to provide information to price comparison websites - for example, Direct Line isn't on any of them.

 

 

I don't think you should rely on this forum to supply you with that information.

 

I'm not, but I do recognise that with something like 1000 active members, its not a completely meaningless cross-section of those interested in canals/boating.

[Higgs]

Insurance companies aren't obliged to provide information to price comparison websites - for example, Direct Line isn't on any of them.

 

I'm not, but I do recognise that with something like 1000 active members, its not a completely meaningless cross-section of those interested in canals/boating.

 

 

It's a cross section. You'll have to allow me to use those opinions in any way I can. Knowing something about the resistance is help in itself.

[Jerra]

 

No, you walk down the street and shop around. Don't you?

Just the same as doing the research which people are suggesting with regard to which marinas have an NAA and which don't. Just like you don't expect the Jeweller to tell you why expect CRT to tell you?

[Paul C]

 

 

I don't think you should rely on this forum to supply you with that information. If I did, I would be pretty disheartened by now; I'm not. It's uphill, but that's all. Makes it more interesting...to me.

 

 

No, you walk down the street and shop around. Don't you?

 

 

 

 

It's a cross section. You'll have to allow me to use those opinions in any way I can. Knowing something about the resistance is help in itself.

 

OK no worries, of course I respect your opinion. Personally I think you're just too lazy to do anything about it. Why not simply negotiate your own terms with your marina manager, for example, so you are excused needing a licence? I did.

[Higgs]

Just the same as doing the research which people are suggesting with regard to which marinas have an NAA and which don't. Just like you don't expect the Jeweller to tell you why expect CRT to tell you?

 

 

Would you kindly go to the top of the thread and see where the suggestion came from, which I then supported. This thread was also split from another thread. Although my name is used as the person who started the thread, it was actually Paul C. This subject was causing another thread to go off topic.

 

The subject might have died a natural death on the other thread, but is was distracting from the subject of the thread it was lifted from. I don't at all mind doing the donkey work and research. I've been reluctant to start threads on certain topics, because I don't always feel prepared or have the energy to contest points of opinion on the forum.

[Higgs]

 

 

 

OK no worries, of course I respect your opinion. Personally I think you're just too lazy to do anything about it. Why not simply negotiate your own terms with your marina manager, for example, so you are excused needing a licence? I did.

 

 

Please read post 35.

 

I'm happy that you negotiated some terms. It may seem rather odd to you, but I'm not thinking of negotiating on a similar basis to you.

[Mike Todd]

 

 

I will reiterate. Cost information is not the primary goal.

 

During the time on here, discussing the NAA, people have often offered the suggestion that one should go to a non-NAA marina, as they exist. That's a fact. I hope it is easier to see now just how unavailable that information is, and CRT do not want you to have that information. Even if there were sufficient options available, a customer should have the information to make a decision.

 

What's the big deal if someone is looking for a particular kind of marina. Even if someone has to ring every damned marina to find out. I'm just trying to be more customer friendly and have an index. Businesses are selling, customers are buying. How does anyone choose where and on what they spend their money - usually by weighing up the pros and cons.

But it is not clear what it is that you do want: if you are simply concerned about the cost of your mooring then you have no interest in or right to know anything about the input costs. Equally, suppliers who whinge about their input costs are out of court if those complaints are addressed effectively to their customers - especially those who want the best price.

 

On the other hand, you may be interested in the service provided and, in particular, whether the marina accepts boats without a CaRT licence (because you don't want one). Whilst this condition may be related to whether an NAA exists or not, it is none of the customer's business to know why the specific service is or is not provided. It may be as a result of the NAA but it could be for other factors. A marina established before the creation of the NAA is not required to offer such a service and, for its own reason, may still insist on certain conditions being observed by its moorers. For all that we know, there may even be arrangements between a marina and CaRT that lead to such a choice that are independent of the NAA factor. CaRT are not obliged to make public all of their commercial arrangements with marinas.

 

It may of course be that you are interested for other reasons - but at least be clear about it.

Insurance companies aren't obliged to provide information to price comparison websites - for example, Direct Line isn't on any of them.

 

I'm not, but I do recognise that with something like 1000 active members, its not a completely meaningless cross-section of those interested in canals/boating.

Comparison web sites are not pro bono - they cost.

[Higgs]

But it is not clear what it is that you do want: if you are simply concerned about the cost of your mooring then you have no interest in or right to know anything about the input costs. Equally, suppliers who whinge about their input costs are out of court if those complaints are addressed effectively to their customers - especially those who want the best price.

 

On the other hand, you may be interested in the service provided and, in particular, whether the marina accepts boats without a CaRT licence (because you don't want one). Whilst this condition may be related to whether an NAA exists or not, it is none of the customer's business to know why the specific service is or is not provided. It may be as a result of the NAA but it could be for other factors. A marina established before the creation of the NAA is not required to offer such a service and, for its own reason, may still insist on certain conditions being observed by its moorers. For all that we know, there may even be arrangements between a marina and CaRT that lead to such a choice that are independent of the NAA factor. CaRT are not obliged to make public all of their commercial arrangements with marinas.

 

It may of course be that you are interested for other reasons - but at least be clear about it.

 

 

 

Am I interested in the cost of my mooring? Not of primary interest. Having in the past given several marinas the once-over, I chose the most expensive, at the time. Not cost related, but a combination of reasons. As long as I could comfortably afford the choice.

 

Am I - "On the other hand, you may be interested in the service provided and, in particular, whether the marina accepts boats without a CaRT licence (because you don't want one)." - Never even thought about it.

 

But, even if I'd wanted to search for a marina that wasn't NAA, it's coming up as a bloody big secret. As soon as, and when I get around to doing it, I shall make it a non-secret.

 

"CaRT are not obliged to make public all of their commercial arrangements with marinas."

 

Boaters are not handed a copy of the NAA contract, but you can easily find one. It doesn't appear to be a secret. It might effect whether a boater seeks out a non-NAA marina. It's called choice; something that CRT has no concept of, and boaters are expected to accept that anti-consumer position. If there is some economic benefit by having a bit of information to make a choice, that is a perfectly acceptable and simple aspect to shopping and spending money.

 

Tell me that you never try and find out where your advantages might be as a shopper, and I'll shut. But, I'd think you were lying.

[Paul C]

 

 

Boaters are not handed a copy of the NAA contract, but you can easily find one. It doesn't appear to be a secret.

 

Did you ask the marina concerned directly, and did they say words to the effect of "we can't tell you"? It just seems unusual, and directly contradicts with my experiences when seeking a mooring.

[Higgs]

 

Did you ask the marina concerned directly, and did they say words to the effect of "we can't tell you"? It just seems unusual, and directly contradicts with my experiences when seeking a mooring.

 

One of my questions to a marina has never been - are you operating through an NAA contract. Have a look around, sir. Here are our terms and conditions, sir. This is how much it costs, sir. Then do I ask, " are you operating as a third party enforcement agency for CRT ? "

 

I'm deciding how to approach this question. It probably will not be direct, when asking around.

[Paul C]

It would make sense to ask the questions you want answers to; I think its a little unfair to conclude things are a secret, if they (the marinas) have not been given the opportunity to answer the questions in your mind.

[Higgs]

It would make sense to ask the questions you want answers to; I think its a little unfair to conclude things are a secret, if they (the marinas) have not been given the opportunity to answer the questions in your mind.

 

 

The reality is, reactions are defensive. One will have to approach it from some other less-than-obvious angle.

[Paul C]

"Do I need a licence to moor here?" would be the obvious angle - since this is actually, what affects you the most - those who don't want to use the canals (perhaps for 6 months in winter) could make a not insignificant saving, so its a completely reasonable question a potential moorer might ask. The answer could go 3 (or more) ways:

 

1) Yes, because we're bound by the NAA (or words to a similar effect)

2) In theory yes but if you keep your head down, I'm not bothered, its between you and CRT

3) No

[Higgs]

"Do I need a licence to moor here?" would be the obvious angle - since this is actually, what affects you the most - those who don't want to use the canals (perhaps for 6 months in winter) could make a not insignificant saving, so its a completely reasonable question a potential moorer might ask. The answer could go 3 (or more) ways:

 

1) Yes, because we're bound by the NAA (or words to a similar effect)

2) In theory yes but if you keep your head down, I'm not bothered, its between you and CRT

3) No

 

 

Plausible, and I'll have to try it, but on marinas that I know are NAA, first.

[cuthound]

Why not ask to have your boat craned out and put on hardstanding? Then it wouldn't matter if it was an NAA agreement or not, as it need not be licensed

[Paul C]

Why not ask to have your boat craned out and put on hardstanding? Then it wouldn't matter if it was an NAA agreement or not, as it need not be licensed

 

Makes it awkward to nip out for the odd weekend onto the canal move the boat within the marina for a pump-out, etc.

[valrene9600]

Plausible, and I'll have to try it, but on marinas that I know are NAA, first.

 

Would they just answer yes you need a license if they were NAA.

[Paul C]

Would they just answer yes you need a license if they were NAA.

 

They may turn a blind eye. There is probably a threshold below which CRT wouldn't sue the marina for breach of contract (the NAA). The marina doesn't check licences (on an ongoing basis) themselves, CRT do. And the lack of licence would be between boater and CRT, ultimately. And since its not actually on CRT waters, I can't see anything realistically being done. They'd need to "catch" you whilst out on the canal, to have any validity in taking action.

[Tam & Di]

C&RT do reserve the right to enter marinas (certainly those which have a NAA) to check boat licences. If I owned a marina I would certainly respond to say the applicant must have a licence as I would not want the hassle. I'd probably not check all the boats in my marina myself, but I'd regard someone who made an issue of it before they moored with me as a potential trouble maker that I could do without.

 

Tam

Edited March 12, 2016 by Tam & Di

[Higgs]

Why not ask to have your boat craned out and put on hardstanding? Then it wouldn't matter if it was an NAA agreement or not, as it need not be licensed

 

 

I accept that people will think it is a solution. I have also said, it wouldn't change things, even if I didn't own a boat. People who generally disagree with me also seem to be missing the point behind my attitude.

 

I accept that I am to blame.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Higgs