Missing boat - Holly - NOW FOUND!

[buccaneer]

Has anyone had alook on ebay and boats and outboards

[fender]

Hmm not so sure I agree -

 

should one be punished for being ill? I mean If his sanity - (emotional and mental health) be found seriously impaired would you think it right to punish him? -That's not to say there shouldn't be repercussions - there usually are repercussions when one suffers an illness - even a cold - you lose wages don't you - - but you don't go to jail - or have to be marked as criminal - being marked as unstable for a while would be consequence enough in itself - a stigma to have to live down- -

 

now I know this is in danger of starting the bucket-of-worms thing - but he's not done any physical harm nor is he menacing or threatening any others space. He has (possibly) simply gone off the rails and needs some therapy - yes he has inconvenienced some holiday makers - and yes he has caused loss of money to a business - but that's what insurance is for - and the holiday makers will get their money back - Mr. King will no doubt struggle for a long time to regain his 'self'

 

just my thinking on the matter

 

but I do hope he doesn't hurt Holly anymore than he already has.

 

Lenient punishment is the last thing he needs. An example has to be made. If he's painting Holly into different colurs surely that means he has some intentions that questions the idea whether he is 'ill' or not?

[trish]

Hi

 

My Manager is on the Oxford Canal at the moment. If you see him - say hello!!!

 

He has just spoken to a guy who said he saw the news about Holly on TV this morning. He remembers following a boat going North on the Oxford Canal during the last 2 days painted all one colour (not sure whether it was blue) with some crates and logs on the roof. We would like to be able to eliminate this boat. If anybody knows whose it is (or if it is yours) please let us know.

 

Trish

[mayalld]

Hmm not so sure I agree -

 

should one be punished for being ill? I mean If his sanity - (emotional and mental health) be found seriously impaired would you think it right to punish him? -That's not to say there shouldn't be repercussions - there usually are repercussions when one suffers an illness - even a cold - you lose wages don't you - - but you don't go to jail - or have to be marked as criminal - being marked as unstable for a while would be consequence enough in itself - a stigma to have to live down- -

 

There is a question of just how impaired his judgement is, and I'm afraid that the fact that he has deliberately set out to disguise the boat's appearance suggests an awareness on his part of what he is doing that precludes a conclusion of insanity.

 

Granted, he may be going through a tough time, but can we as a society actually afford to let people who are having a tough time do as they please with impunity?

 

now I know this is in danger of starting the bucket-of-worms thing - but he's not done any physical harm nor is he menacing or threatening any others space. He has (possibly) simply gone off the rails and needs some therapy - yes he has inconvenienced some holiday makers - and yes he has caused loss of money to a business - but that's what insurance is for - and the holiday makers will get their money back - Mr. King will no doubt struggle for a long time to regain his 'self'

A valiant effort to minimise the seriousness of his actions, but not one that I can agree with!

 

he has inconvenienced some holiday makers

No, he has spoiled their holiday. At best they will get a boat other than the boat they wanted (and people hiring Holly don't just want "a boat"), at worst their holiday will be cancelled.

 

he has caused loss of money to a business - but that's what insurance is for

I could be wrong here, but I don't believe that a hire business can actually insure against loss of income due to theft by a customer.

 

the holiday makers will get their money back

Which is all well and good, but they won't get their week's leave back will they? And who will pay them their money back? Middlewich Narrowboats!

[Cafnod]

Some hire companies make huge profits, depends how many hire bases/boats they have, I can think of at least two that are very large concerns, with system wide business.

It is possible to have insurance for loss of income from the hire boat and it is not prohibitively expensive.

I cannot think of any circumstance where stealing a hire boat could conceivably attract a lynch mob.

The fairness of the justice system is open to question, ask The Birmighma six, the guildford four, and many many others.

I think Adrian (Moley) is correct, why should the guy not get sympathetic treatment, after all if he HAS committed the crimes he is alleged to have done, and we have no proof he has, yet, then all he is guilty of is some loss to insurance companies, providing adequate cover was taken out and possibly some alteration of some holiday plans.

[Graham Blott]

Some hire companies make huge profits, depends how many hire bases/boats they have, I can think of at least two that are very large concerns, with system wide business.

It is possible to have insurance for loss of income from the hire boat and it is not prohibitively expensive.

I cannot think of any circumstance where stealing a hire boat could conceivably attract a lynch mob.

The fairness of the justice system is open to question, ask The Birmighma six, the guildford four, and many many others.

I think Adrian (Moley) is correct, why should the guy not get sympathetic treatment, after all if he HAS committed the crimes he is alleged to have done, and we have no proof he has, yet, then all he is guilty of is some loss to insurance companies, providing adequate cover was taken out and possibly some alteration of some holiday plans.

 

Commendably charitable view Cafnod.

 

But Middlewich Narrowboats is hardly a "very large concerns, with system wide business". And if your holiday was suddenly cancelled (not altered) by the hire company - who after all don't have spare boats to cover the eventuality of one being stolen - would you still feel so charitably towards the thief.

 

" if he HAS committed the crimes he is alleged to have done, and we have no proof he has". What further proof do you need. He hires a boat for two weeks, repaints it and disappears for (at present) five weeks. The act of an innocent man?

[memsahib]

Hello,

 

I'm new to this, so hope this works.

 

I had a phone call last night from my Mum in Derby, who knows our interest in canal boats. She had just spoken to Derby Police as she had seen an article in a local paper about this missing boat and it reminded her of one that she saw on Wednesday 18th on the 48 hour moorings at Willington, opposite the permanent moorings and along just out of view of the pub. She often walks along the canal and is used to people passing the time of day, but the chap with this boat kept his head down and ignored her.

 

She says the boat had no name, was blue (and I think similar to the pictures further up the thread) and the external paint was rough. The front end wherre the rope fittings are didn't look quite right, which would fit in with the front end having been altered. There were double doors at the front, the windows either side of which were not rectangular and she remembers thinking the windows were larger than normal.

 

The other thing that really puzzled her was the amount of work being done to the boat on these short term moorings. There was a white van in the car park which appeared to be associated with the boat and lots of big expensive tools for completely refitting the boat on the towpath. She could smell the new wood as she walked past and said it looked as though everything inside was being replaced.

 

Don't know if we have Holly here, but I thought if I posted the info it might help.

[mayalld]

Some hire companies make huge profits, depends how many hire bases/boats they have, I can think of at least two that are very large concerns, with system wide business.

 

So, nothing like the company that has been affected here then?

 

And are you really saying that it's OK to stiff a company for a few grand if their profits will stand it?

 

It is possible to have insurance for loss of income from the hire boat and it is not prohibitively expensive.

Yes, you can insure against loss of income as a result of an insurable loss (eg if the customer manages to sink the boat), but I don't believe that you can insure against theft by somebody you have given the keys to.

 

I cannot think of any circumstance where stealing a hire boat could conceivably attract a lynch mob.

 

Neither can I. The point that I was making is that nobody has to hope that he will be treated decently, it is a given that he will be treated decently and be tried by the due process of the law.

 

The fairness of the justice system is open to question, ask The Birmighma six, the guildford four, and many many others.

I think that things have improved a little since then, and there is nothing to suggest that the justice system will treat him other than fairly

 

I think Adrian (Moley) is correct, why should the guy not get sympathetic treatment, after all if he HAS committed the crimes he is alleged to have done, and we have no proof he has, yet, then all he is guilty of is some loss to insurance companies, providing adequate cover was taken out and possibly some alteration of some holiday plans.

 

The mind boggles at the way some people are seeking to minimise what this guy has done.

 

 

• It is unlikely that this will be paid for by insurance.
  
• Even if insurance does pay for it, where do you imagine that insurance companies get money from?
  
• "Sorry, the boat you booked has been pinched, and we don't have another suitable boat" is not "some alteration of some holiday plans"
  

[Cafnod]

Hi Graham.

I have been TOLD that a boat has diappeared together with a man named David King. I have been given no direct evidence of this, just read 30 pages of hearsay and conjecture and been shown a photograph that many people think has been altered.

You are arguing from the particular to the general it was said in an earlier post that hire boat companies ran on small profits etc.

I replied that there were some large hire boat companies. You replied thet Middlewich were not one of them. I had never said they were, just that large hire boat companies exist.

I also pointed out that insurance exists for theft, recovery of stolen property in the event of theft and for loss of earnings. As not many narrowboats get stolen it is not prohibitively expensive to have such cover.

During the foot and mouth epidemic, the handling of which is open to much discussion, many people lost their holidays, vast amounts of income and in several cases I know of definitely their businesses in the outdoor industry.

Yet I have never heard of suggestions of 'examples being made' or 'punishment first treatment afterwards'

Bring on the stocks pillory and horsewhips.

And if he had offered to paint our boat to a decent standard he is welcome to a weeks holiday for every three days he works on it, all materials supplied.

[Theo]

Hello,

 

I'm new to this, so hope this works.

 

I had a phone call last night from my Mum in Derby, who knows our interest in canal boats. She had just spoken to Derby Police as she had seen an article in a local paper about this missing boat and it reminded her of one that she saw on Wednesday 18th on the 48 hour moorings at Willington, opposite the permanent moorings and along just out of view of the pub. She often walks along the canal and is used to people passing the time of day, but the chap with this boat kept his head down and ignored her.

 

She says the boat had no name, was blue (and I think similar to the pictures further up the thread) and the external paint was rough. The front end wherre the rope fittings are didn't look quite right, which would fit in with the front end having been altered. There were double doors at the front, the windows either side of which were not rectangular and she remembers thinking the windows were larger than normal.

 

The other thing that really puzzled her was the amount of work being done to the boat on these short term moorings. There was a white van in the car park which appeared to be associated with the boat and lots of big expensive tools for completely refitting the boat on the towpath. She could smell the new wood as she walked past and said it looked as though everything inside was being replaced.

 

Don't know if we have Holly here, but I thought if I posted the info it might help.

 

Now that's a promising lead and speaks of criminality.

 

Nick

[trish]

Hello,

 

I'm new to this, so hope this works.

 

I had a phone call last night from my Mum in Derby, who knows our interest in canal boats. She had just spoken to Derby Police as she had seen an article in a local paper about this missing boat and it reminded her of one that she saw on Wednesday 18th on the 48 hour moorings at Willington, opposite the permanent moorings and along just out of view of the pub. She often walks along the canal and is used to people passing the time of day, but the chap with this boat kept his head down and ignored her.

 

She says the boat had no name, was blue (and I think similar to the pictures further up the thread) and the external paint was rough. The front end wherre the rope fittings are didn't look quite right, which would fit in with the front end having been altered. There were double doors at the front, the windows either side of which were not rectangular and she remembers thinking the windows were larger than normal.

 

The other thing that really puzzled her was the amount of work being done to the boat on these short term moorings. There was a white van in the car park which appeared to be associated with the boat and lots of big expensive tools for completely refitting the boat on the towpath. She could smell the new wood as she walked past and said it looked as though everything inside was being replaced.

 

Don't know if we have Holly here, but I thought if I posted the info it might help.

 

 

Can anybody out there eliminate this boat??? This throws us way out with the sighting in Banbury. Although it does sound a bit worrying. Getting very confused now....

 

Trish

[Starry]

Mayalld, It seems as though we will have to agree to disagree -

 

I just do not believe that a few ££'s and some inconvenienced holiday makers equal cause for criminal punishment if it turns out that this man is ill.

 

I would think that a man's breakdown and inability to cope would be looked at with compassion - not necessarily forgiveness but at the very least compassion - I would think it a very sad thing to lose one's grip.

 

Painting the boat and otherwise altering it's appearance does not in anyway diminish the likelihood of an ailing mind.

[nigel carton]

If this helps....

 

 

Total distance is 71.44 miles and 66 locks. There are at least 1 moveable bridge; 8 small aqueducts or underbridges and 2 tunnels.

 

Made up of 36.10 miles of narrow canals; 35.34 miles of broad canals; 37 narrow locks; 29 broad locks.

 

This will take 36 hours, 57 minutes which is 4 days, 57 minutes at 9 hours per day.

 

For calculation purposes, this is taken as 4 days

 

 

 

This is Hatton bottom lock to Derby (ish)!

 

ps Trish, don't know if you use Canalplan AC but its a good bit of kit. Just google for the link (Canalplan ac)

Edited April 20, 2007 by nigel carton

[Jon]

There seems to be a lot of conjecture, blame and hearsay taking place here, based on not a lot! While I agree that there could be mitigating circumstances surrounding this case, lets leave the decison on how to deal with it with the correct authorities and the courts once Mr King has been found.

 

Memsahib, thank you for your contribution and welcome! Can anyone assist in bottoming that one out?

 

Trish, was there any update on the Banbury sighting? Any known direction of travel or timescale?

 

Jon

 

 

 

Thanks Nigel. I can't remember which canal runs through derby and I can't find my map! Can anyone remind me?

 

Jon

[Cafnod]

I have paid for insurance for motorcycles, cars, motorhomes, boats, travel, premises (domestic and commercial) and lots of other things for at least 35 years. Apart from two minor claims I have never had anything back from the £100's I have put in.

As a theft has taken place that is an insurable loss, if it were not hire car companies could not do anything when people failed to return hire cars.

So therefore the company have an insurable loss to claim against, if they have not taken out adequate cover then that is not Mr. Kings fault.

I cannot comment on any particular hire boats companies annual profits.

I have never saud that I condone Mr. King stealing the boat nor have I yet any proof that he has.

I do not think it is a given that all people are treated decently, I am not suggesting that the vast majority are not, but I think it is naiive to think that all are and that is a given that they are, by the criminal justice system.

Times have changed, well that is also open to conjecture there is plenty of evidence that it has not. I see that people now have to pay for their board and lodging out of (any) compansation they receive from being wrongfully inprisoned as a result of an miscarraige of justice.

And in my very humble opinion the mind boggles at the MAXIMISATION of what this guy is SAID (no conviction or charges yet) to have done.

[Freetochat]

It seems to me that there is a lot of conjecture on this thread, but, most of it appears to be positively motivate in re-uniting the boat with its' owner. If the man has been taken ill, or worse, then of course all normal people will sympathise. If however the boat has not been returned under a hire agreement, and has ruined the holidays of a few families, and caused loss to the owners due to the hirer wishing to assume the decision making process for themselves, then this can only be viewed as criminal. Especially if supported by repainting, fitting etc. No doubt in due course the facts will come out, but presently surely the objective is to find the boat, establish the welfare of the missing person and return the boat to its' owner. Arguments between members is not helpful!

[nigel carton]

That will be the Trent and Mersey I believe.

[Cafnod]

It seems to me that there is a lot of conjecture on this thread, but, most of it appears to be positively motivate in re-uniting the boat with its' owner. If the man has been taken ill, or worse, then of course all normal people will sympathise. If however the boat has not been returned under a hire agreement, and has ruined the holidays of a few families, and caused loss to the owners due to the hirer wishing to assume the decision making process for themselves, then this can only be viewed as criminal. Especially if supported by repainting, fitting etc. No doubt in due course the facts will come out, but presently surely the objective is to find the boat, establish the welfare of the missing person and return the boat to its' owner. Arguments between members is not helpful!

 

 

Well said

[Phil Speight]

Some hire companies make huge profits, depends how many hire bases/boats they have, I can think of at least two that are very large concerns, with system wide business.

It is possible to have insurance for loss of income from the hire boat and it is not prohibitively expensive.

I cannot think of any circumstance where stealing a hire boat could conceivably attract a lynch mob.

The fairness of the justice system is open to question, ask The Birmighma six, the guildford four, and many many others.

I think Adrian (Moley) is correct, why should the guy not get sympathetic treatment, after all if he HAS committed the crimes he is alleged to have done, and we have no proof he has, yet, then all he is guilty of is some loss to insurance companies, providing adequate cover was taken out and possibly some alteration of some holiday plans.

Sorry - can`t agree in the slightest with most of this.If the guy has serious problems that are beyond his control he has my sympathy. However insurance companies , not a group with whom I have much sympathy at all, aren`t there to make theft more acceptable, or fraud , or wilful damage ( the boat is now the wrong colour). "Do as thou wilt " is not thankfully the whole of the law. Is he actually guilty of anything? Well , if he`s been kidnapped clearly not . If he is totally out of his mind possibly not - although he`s a hell of a well organized and quite talented painter if currently less than sane. This however makes no difference to the hire company. They may well have insurance and , if they do , I`m sure they will be paid EVENTUALLY - although that won`t help their cash-flow situation given all the hirings they are having to cancel , it won`t actually repaint and otherwise make good the boat when and if they get it back and it won`t do a lot for the poor families whose annual holiday plans have been entirely ruined . I simply cannot understand this "the insurance `ll pay so what the hell" thing at all . Taking the boat without it`s owner`s consent is not only grossly inconvenient and financially harmful, short-term or long,for the owners , not only hurtful to the people who should be out here on holiday with Holly NOW it is also unambiguously , incontravertibly and completely ILLEGAL.

Where is the morality in the belief that since a successful hire company makes good money they and their insurers are a fair target? - That if you are successful you should be expected to more readily accept being dropped in the sh*t . There are laws we like and laws we don`t , if you want some then you must accept the rest , and there is the choice of anarchy if you prefer it. Fine , if that`s what you want you are welcome - but pay for it yourself. Freedom has to extend in all directions.

I would hate to see the guy "lynched" , manhandled or in any way harmed whatsoever and , after all, he may have stolen the boat by accident(!). Two wrongs never make a right - and maybe he genuinley needs help and understanding and should be given both - but for goodness sake keep your sympathy for those who are simply been made victims of someone else`s ( possible ) problems.

Phil

[honey ryder]

I wish people would stop waffling on about whatever springs to mind when thinking about this missing boat and person. its really confusing the issue.

I think maybe a new thread should be started for the gossip mongers and maybe keep this one confined to possible sightings and serious information. ( or vice versa)

 

Too many cooks spoil the broth and in this case are swamping the most important issue which is FINDING the boat.

 

stop your tittle tattle and get on with finding it will you... and ideally the fella who's also the prime suspect

theres a whole weekend ahead where we can have a look out. if there isnt a confirmed sighting by the end of it, then we need to try harder.

[bramley]

I wish people would stop waffling on about whatever springs to mind when thinking about this missing boat and person. its really confusing the issue.

I think maybe a new thread should be started for the gossip mongers and maybe keep this one confined to possible sightings and serious information. ( or vice versa)

 

Too many cooks spoil the broth and in this case are swamping the most important issue which is FINDING the boat.

 

stop your tittle tattle and get on with finding it will you... and ideally the fella who's also the prime suspect

theres a whole weekend ahead where we can have a look out. if there isnt a confirmed sighting by the end of it, then we need to try harder.

 

 

took the words right out of my mouth, get it back to subject and on topic, theres many ifs buts and whos and wheres but its not needed right now in my opinion

[trish]

There seems to be a lot of conjecture, blame and hearsay taking place here, based on not a lot! While I agree that there could be mitigating circumstances surrounding this case, lets leave the decison on how to deal with it with the correct authorities and the courts once Mr King has been found.

 

Memsahib, thank you for your contribution and welcome! Can anyone assist in bottoming that one out?

 

Trish, was there any update on the Banbury sighting? Any known direction of travel or timescale?

 

Jon

Thanks Nigel. I can't remember which canal runs through derby and I can't find my map! Can anyone remind me?

 

Jon

 

Hi Jon

 

I dont have any further info at the moment. It is an unconfirmed sighting that we are taking quite seriously. Adam and Paul are both down on the Oxford, Adam has just seen a single coloured boat with crates on the roof that is definately NOT Holly.

Will keep you informed.

 

Trish

[Theo]

I wish people would stop waffling on about whatever springs to mind when thinking about this missing boat and person. its really confusing the issue.

I think maybe a new thread should be started for the gossip mongers and maybe keep this one confined to possible sightings and serious information. ( or vice versa)

 

Too many cooks spoil the broth and in this case are swamping the most important issue which is FINDING the boat.

 

stop your tittle tattle and get on with finding it will you... and ideally the fella who's also the prime suspect

theres a whole weekend ahead where we can have a look out. if there isnt a confirmed sighting by the end of it, then we need to try harder.

 

Well said HR

 

Nick

[Mart]

A phone call to Jannel Cruisers, Burton-on-Trent.. We hired from them and found them very helpful when we broke down. I'm sure they would be happy to check the Burton - Willington area.

I can't believe the chappie will make for Trent Junction and Nottingham as the lock keepers are bound to spot him providing they are all in the know..

[Jon]

I would hate to see the guy "lynched" , manhandled or in any way harmed whatsoever and , after all, he may have stolen the boat by accident(!). Two wrongs never make a right - and maybe he genuinley needs help and understanding and should be given both - but for goodness sake keep your sympathy for those who are simply been made victims of someone else`s ( possible ) problems.

Phil

 

I agree Phil, there is no point in speculating until Mr King is found and he has his lawful right to give his account of the circumstances. Until then everything is just hearsay and conjecture and is simply clouding the issues.

 

 

I wish people would stop waffling on about whatever springs to mind when thinking about this missing boat and person. its really confusing the issue.

I think maybe a new thread should be started for the gossip mongers and maybe keep this one confined to possible sightings and serious information. ( or vice versa)

 

Too many cooks spoil the broth and in this case are swamping the most important issue which is FINDING the boat.

 

stop your tittle tattle and get on with finding it will you... and ideally the fella who's also the prime suspect

theres a whole weekend ahead where we can have a look out. if there isnt a confirmed sighting by the end of it, then we need to try harder.

 

 

Thank you honey ryder - these are my sentiments exactly.

 

Jon