Gas pipes in bilge/floorspace

[blackrose]

Careful, for a live aboard boat the GSIUR certainly applies and is relevant. However in terms of the practices it dictates I think (without having done a rigorous analysis) that the BSS sets a higher standard.

Well, like I said, I'm willing to go to reasonable lengths to ensure the safety of myself and others. I consider myself competant to work on gas and my boat meets, and in some cases exceeds the BSS standards. Beyond that I'm not interested and if someone wants to sue me for non-compliance with additional safety regs they can carry on. But I know that's unlikely to happen because this discussion is really just the preserve of anoraks like us.

[nicknorman]

Well, like I said, I'm willing to go to reasonable lengths to ensure the safety of myself and others. I consider myself competant to work on gas and my boat meets, and in some cases exceeds the BSS standards. Beyond that I'm not interested and if someone wants to sue me for non-compliance with additional safety regs they can carry on. But I know that's unlikely to happen because this discussion is really just the preserve of anoraks like us.

It's highly unlikely to happen unless there is an explosion or death from CO gassing.

[mark99]

Acops is authored by HSE. Good luck trying to dismiss its validity due to be sponsored by the market.

Edited November 15, 2015 by mark99

[nicknorman]

Acops is authored by HSE. Good luck trying to dismiss its validity due to be sponsored by the market.

Well, it's endorsed by HSE rather than them writing it I think. It is what we call in aviation law an "acceptable means of compliance" with the law. It is not the law and not the only means of compliance with the law. Anyway this is what they have to say with regard to "amateurs":

 

"Work in relation to a gas fitting

51 For the purposes of these Regulations, ‘work’ includes do-it-yourself activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends and relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward or gain, eg voluntary activity for charities. This means that anyone carrying out such work must have the necessary competence, as required by regulation 3(1). However, membership of an HSE approved class of persons (under regulation 3(3)) is required only by businesses carrying out gas fitting work"

 

In other words an amateur must be competent but doesn't need to be gas safe registered. Which is what I have said all along.

[mark99]

The issue is that the benchmark for Competence is being an approved class of person which is gained by acquiring very specific gas related accreditations/modules; those which presuppose existing training and experience. Being Gas Safe registered is only a small part - having the ACS accreditations are probably more important when up against the beak for doing an iffy diy.

Edited November 15, 2015 by mark99

[nicknorman]

The issue is that the benchmark for Competence is being an approved class of person which is gained by acquiring very specific gas related accreditations/modules; those which presuppose existing training and experience. Being Gas Safe registered is only a small part - having the ACS accreditations are probably more important when up against the beak for doing an iffy diy.

If you are up against the beak for doing an iffy job, you are screwed. And rightly so. My point is that it is not illegal for an amateur non-gas-safe person to work on gas. It is only illegal if it is done incompetently.

Edited November 15, 2015 by nicknorman

[Paul C]

Personally amazed the "other" thread: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=80583&page=2has remained so quiet, given the amount of advice etc offered in this one, to someone who obviously is being more cautious/measured in their install.

[nicknorman]

Personally amazed the "other" thread: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=80583&page=2has remained so quiet, given the amount of advice etc offered in this one, to someone who obviously is being more cautious/measured in their install.

"No hope" springs to mind!

[Murflynn]

Did I say BSS or BS????????????????

I quoted from BS EN ISO 10239:2000

As required by RCD when I fitted out my boat

Ray

you specifically said BSS pdfs.

the referred BS/EN/ISO requires solid piping to be used for rigid supply lines.

it also requires that: Piping shall be installed as high as practicable above the bilge water level

 

"No hope" springs to mind!

Edited November 15, 2015 by Murflynn

[MtB]

"No hope" springs to mind!

 

 

My thoughts too.

 

Hard to know how to start advising an *****. Best not to get involved.

 

"You can lead a fool to wisdom but you can't make him think", as illustrated in that thread.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman

[mark99]

We don't even use 8 mm for impulse sense lines.

[raymondh]

you specifically said BSS pdfs.

the referred BS/EN/ISO requires solid piping to be used for rigid supply lines.

it also requires that: Piping shall be installed as high as practicable above the bilge water level

 

Where did I say BSS or pdfs? thinlk you need to read my post again

 

Ray

[Murflynn]

Where did I say BSS or pdfs? thinlk you need to read my post again

 

Ray

I thought we were discussing post #36, which you commented on.

 

the OP stated BSS pdfs.

 

sorry if I got you confused with OP.

[Positively4thStreet]

 

 

Firstly, may I suggest you start by figuring out which regulations and standards you wish to comply with and which can be ignored? This will help you enormously. For a new build you'll need to meet the stringent BS5482-2005 Part 3 standard in order to achieve RCD compliance. If you only want to meet BSS then BSS is a pretty slack set of standards as you've already sussed out!

 

If you want to live aboard, then the GSIUR come into play too and things get complex.

 

Do some research on what you'd like to comply with, then consider what you'll need to comply with. Bear in mind for RCD you'll be self-declaring compliance with BS5482-2005 3

 

And as Murffly says, you don't want to be using rigid pipework, it needs to be fully annealed and hand bendable. It's almost floppy and certainly not self-supporting.

 

Cheers for the heads up, I will read into it properly now. I have been getting the electrics/solar in and have been (lazily, I admit) skimming through all of the info I can get my hands on, when I get the chance. I'll knuckle down and read through what is needed now. To be honest though, if I don't feel up to it I will be getting a fitter or pipey in to do the work. I want a safe boat/home, not a quick pass or a jump through the hoops. I think I have got the system almost there now, so I will see how it goes.

 

Thanks for all your help, it doesn't half open up a can of worms when you ask about stuff that you assume is straighforward!!

 

Cheers again.

 

 

 

Hi,

How did you determine "I am intending to use "proper" L- or K-class gas pipe, 3/8 inch with 0.049 - 0.035 inch wall thickness" ?

 

Due to pipe run length and Kw requirements of the appliances I had to use 1/2" pipe! and I believe the term "rigid" is to differentiate between the "fixed ipipework" and "flexible pipework" ie hose

 

My copy of the BS is 2007 so may be out of date but the definitions should be the same?

 

Ray

 

I think you're right regards the "rigid" and "flexible", I seem to have combined rigid with pipe materials in my mind. Too much going on to thin straight at the moment. As for the pipe diameter, you might, be, well, you are right. I need 1/2" pipe. The hob is 11.6 kW (~40000 btu/hr) and the pipe run is 13.2 m (~43 ft) so 1/2" it is. I should have sized up the system first before posting questions about it (I've been rigging up the solar/electrics for the last week or so). Now, I'm onto the gas I can start getting in to it. Steep learning curve. Thanks for the help, much appreciated.

 

As for the pipe gauge/thicknesses... I have quoted industrial/subterranean copper pipe diameters from a catalogue that I got hold of, Petersons Copper Pipe somethign or other. I definitely won't be using that stuff. I think, 1/2" annealed copper pipe will do it!

 

 

where did you find the word 'rigid'? - it is not used in the BSS guide.

Sorry, I may have misinterpreted that. It is there, " 'Pipework’ always refers to rigid supply lines [...]", but I have combined that in my thinking with the sentence regarding the pipework materials (seamless copper, stainless etc.). As Ray says, it is probably there to differentiate between the felxible hose system in the locker and the internal pipework in the cabin.

[raymondh]

Refrigeration pipe is imperial and meets the BS requirements suppliers in most areas of the UK

Ray

[MtB]

Refrigeration pipe is imperial and meets the BS requirements suppliers in most areas of the UK

Ray

 

One slight flaw in this plan is refrig pipe joints are generally manipulated then brazed or silver soldered together IIRC. No fittings used. So the OP would need to go to a boatyard or supplier of imperial compression fittings anyway, and these places also sell the correct imperial pipe.

[raymondh]

Copper pipe from Refrig suppliers would be around £2.20 mtr for 1/2" Midland Chandlers £6.80 mtr , however as always folk can decide and spend as they like

I would take the arguably better? fridge spec pipe at lower cost, just my choice

Ray