Gas pipes in bilge/floorspace

[Positively4thStreet]

Cheers guys, I am thinking along the same lines as Paul; I intend to run a completely inspectable line from the locker, under the gunnel and then vertically down the bulkhead and under the floorspace to the island. I am guessing that "rigid" copper pipe is straight lengths, i.e. not the softer coils of 3/8 microbore pipe that you can find, so I am guessing there would have to be two elbows at or below floor level.

 

Thanks again guys, much help!

 

It is a widebeam by the way, a narrowbeam would be so much easier without the options extra space affords!

[blackrose]

Would a trap hole in the floor and mirror mounted below the board to reflect the length of the pipe suffice the inspection requirement?

Streuth! Talk about smoke and mirrors!

 

I doubt an inspector using a mirror could be satisfied that there were no joints unless it was a short run.

Cheers guys, I am thinking along the same lines as Paul; I intend to run a completely inspectable line from the locker, under the gunnel and then vertically down the bulkhead and under the floorspace to the island. I am guessing that "rigid" copper pipe is straight lengths, i.e. not the softer coils of 3/8 microbore pipe that you can find, so I am guessing there would have to be two elbows at or below floor level.

 

Perhaps I've misunderstood but as far I know you shouldn't be using rigid gas pipe. You need to do it all in soft copper pipe with no unnecessary joints. So no elbows if you can avoid it.

[blackrose]

It is a widebeam by the way, a narrowbeam would be so much easier without the options extra space affords!

Only it won't be space anymore once you fill it with an island unit. I thought they'd had their day in the 90s and fallen out of fashion now? I've seen island units on widebeams. It's not to my taste but each to their own.

[MtB]

Streuth! Talk about smoke and mirrors!

 

I doubt an inspector using a mirror could be satisfied that there were no joints unless it was a short run.

 

Perhaps I've misunderstood but as far I know you shouldn't be using rigid gas pipe. You need to do it all in soft copper pipe with no unnecessary joints. So no elbows if you can avoid it.

 

Not necessarily. The OP still hasn't told us if this is a new build needing an RCD or a DIY improvement of an existing boat only needing BSS approval.

 

I know of a boat piped up in rigid15mm copper that recently obtained a BSS, to my surprise.

(Examiner with a reputation for being picky, too!)

[blackrose]

 

Not necessarily. The OP still hasn't told us if this is a new build needing an RCD or a DIY improvement of an existing boat only needing BSS approval.

 

I know of a boat piped up in rigid15mm copper that recently obtained a BSS, to my surprise.

 

(Examiner with a reputation for being picky, too!)

I'm surprised too. I thought the BSS required flexible gas pipe?

[Tony Brooks]

Soft copper yes, flexible only for the immediate attachment of the appliance and as short as reasonably possible. I think there may be a confusion of terms here.

[blackrose]

Soft copper yes, flexible only for the immediate attachment of the appliance and as short as reasonably possible. I think there may be a confusion of terms here.

Yes, sorry I meant flexible (soft) as opposed rigid. I thought rigid gas pipe was a definite no-no, but from what MtB says apparently not!

[MtB]

I'm surprised too. I thought the BSS required flexible gas pipe?

 

 

So did I. But I haven't had both the time and the inclination to trawl through the BSS book to check!

[Murflynn]

the softer coils of 3/8 microbore pipe that you can find,

for the record - microbore pipe bought in the plumber's merchants or B&Q does not comply with the ISO standards (required for RCD etc.), but gas pipe bought at the chandlers does (or should do). The difference is the wall thickness (0.7mm vs 0.8mm as I recall).

[MtB]

for the record - microbore pipe bought in the plumber's merchants or B&Q does not comply with the ISO standards (required for RCD etc.), but gas pipe bought at the chandlers does (or should do). The difference is the wall thickness (0.7mm vs 0.8mm as I recall).

 

 

This is correct, but bear in mind microbore in the plumbers merchant only comes in metric sizes so is easily distinguishable from The Real Thing, which only comes in imperial sizes (broadly speaking!)

I suppose so, but all that presumes someone is on board to smell it. So there is only a gain in safety if a leak occurs whilst the boat is occupied. If it's not occupied but say the owner comes back, opens the door with a fag in his mouth etc, it's going to be just as boom-tastic as it would have been of the pipes were under the floor.

 

 

Ok, so it should be OK to install gas pipes in bilges, but only if the boaters have no sense of smell?

 

I suppose the other way of looking at it would be that if all gas pipes had to be under the floors, a helluvalot more gas would need to escape before it filled the boat up to fag height...

[Positively4thStreet]

I have only been going off what I could find in the downloadable BSS pdfs and they are ambiguous to say the least. Although, it does explicitly state that rigid copper, stainless steel or copper alloy pipework be used. The boat is a new build and we are in the middle of fitting her out so it will be a first time certificate. I am intending to use "proper" L- or K-class gas pipe, 3/8 inch with 0.049 - 0.035 inch wall thickness respectively in a single unbroken length between the bulkhead fitting and the hob connection. As I am new to this boating lark, I am unsure of the how ambiguity in the regs is played out in reality, i.e. at inspection, and I can't be arsed having to replace what is perfectly safe and suitable pipework with a rigid system and a multitude of compression fittings. Every BSS inspector I have emailed has either not replied, retired or said that they would have to judge it on inspection.

 

As for space, the boat is 58' by 13'... the 6' 6" by 3' 6" island/breakfast bar is tiny inside her.

[Murflynn]

Although, it does explicitly state that rigid SEAMLESS copper, stainless steel or copper alloy pipework be used.

 

 

Please note that there is no mention of RIGID.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Murflynn

[MtB]

I have only been going off what I could find in the downloadable BSS pdfs and they are ambiguous to say the least. Although, it does explicitly state that rigid copper, stainless steel or copper alloy pipework be used. The boat is a new build and we are in the middle of fitting her out so it will be a first time certificate. I am intending to use "proper" L- or K-class gas pipe, 3/8 inch with 0.049 - 0.035 inch wall thickness respectively in a single unbroken length between the bulkhead fitting and the hob connection. As I am new to this boating lark, I am unsure of the how ambiguity in the regs is played out in reality, i.e. at inspection, and I can't be arsed having to replace what is perfectly safe and suitable pipework with a rigid system and a multitude of compression fittings. Every BSS inspector I have emailed has either not replied, retired or said that they would have to judge it on inspection.

 

As for space, the boat is 58' by 13'... the 6' 6" by 3' 6" island/breakfast bar is tiny inside her.

 

 

Firstly, may I suggest you start by figuring out which regulations and standards you wish to comply with and which can be ignored? This will help you enormously. For a new build you'll need to meet the stringent BS5482-2005 Part 3 standard in order to achieve RCD compliance. If you only want to meet BSS then BSS is a pretty slack set of standards as you've already sussed out!

 

If you want to live aboard, then the GSIUR come into play too and things get complex.

 

Do some research on what you'd like to comply with, then consider what you'll need to comply with. Bear in mind for RCD you'll be self-declaring compliance with BS5482-2005 3

 

And as Murffly says, you don't want to be using rigid pipework, it needs to be fully annealed and hand bendable. It's almost floppy and certainly not self-supporting.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman

[raymondh]

Hi,

How did you determine "I am intending to use "proper" L- or K-class gas pipe, 3/8 inch with 0.049 - 0.035 inch wall thickness" ?

 

Due to pipe run length and Kw requirements of the appliances I had to use 1/2" pipe! and I believe the term "rigid" is to differentiate between the "fixed ipipework" and "flexible pipework" ie hose

 

My copy of the BS is 2007 so may be out of date but the definitions should be the same?

 

Ray

[Murflynn]

I believe the term "rigid" is to differentiate between the "fixed ipipework" and "flexible pipework" ie hose

 

 

where did you find the word 'rigid'? - it is not used in the BSS guide.

[blackrose]

If it were me then I'd just use the soft copper pipe sold of the type sold at chandlers because then you know it's going to pass (the BSS - I have no knowledge of the RCD). I've been living aboard full time on two different boats for 13 years now and must have been inspected 4 or 5 times, but the GSIUR has never once been mentioned to me. I guess that must be for RCD compliance, or perhaps more likely I have ignored another set of bureaucratic regulations that I don't care about!

 

I'm willing to go to certain, reasonable lengths to keep myself and others safe: Systems compliant to the BSS (and beyond), the correct number of fire extinguishers in date, working smoke and CO alarms, hull-earth bonded AC system, proper ventilation according to BSS recommendations, etc, etc. But my feeling is that if a boat is considered safe enough for people to occupy for a few weeks or months every year, then it's probably safe enough for me to occupy full time. The additional rules and regs I will ignore, and if it ever comes back to bite me in the arse then I'll take the consequences (but I very much doubt it ever will).

Edited November 13, 2015 by blackrose

[Murflynn]

If it were me then I'd just use the soft copper pipe sold of the type sold at chandlers because then you know it's going to pass (the BSS - I have no knowledge of the RCD). I've been living aboard full time on two different boats for 13 years now and must have been inspected 4 or 5 times, but the GSIUR has never once been mentioned to me. I guess that must be for RCD compliance, or perhaps more likely I have ignored another set of bureaucratic regulations that I don't care about!

 

 

AFAI remember, the RCD requires compliance with the LPG BS/EN/ISO standard that specifies that 10mm or 3/8" pipe should have a wall thickness of at least 0.8mm, which matches the coiled pipe you would find at the chandlers.

Joints should be minimised, which is fairly easy if you uncoil the pipe as you install it.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Murflynn

[raymondh]

where did you find the word 'rigid'? - it is not used in the BSS guide.

Did I say BSS or BS????????????????

I quoted from BS EN ISO 10239:2000

As required by RCD when I fitted out my boat

Ray

[nicknorman]

If it were me then I'd just use the soft copper pipe sold of the type sold at chandlers because then you know it's going to pass (the BSS - I have no knowledge of the RCD). I've been living aboard full time on two different boats for 13 years now and must have been inspected 4 or 5 times, but the GSIUR has never once been mentioned to me. I guess that must be for RCD compliance, or perhaps more likely I have ignored another set of bureaucratic regulations that I don't care about!

 

I'm willing to go to certain, reasonable lengths to keep myself and others safe: Systems compliant to the BSS (and beyond), the correct number of fire extinguishers in date, working smoke and CO alarms, hull-earth bonded AC system, proper ventilation according to BSS recommendations, etc, etc. But my feeling is that if a boat is considered safe enough for people to occupy for a few weeks or months every year, then it's probably safe enough for me to occupy full time. The additional rules and regs I will ignore, and if it ever comes back to bite me in the arse then I'll take the consequences (but I very much doubt it ever will).

GSIUR mostly relates to work on gas systems by employers and employees - ie professionals getting paid for the work, need to be Gas Safe registered. It has other general stuff which is mostly common sense. Worth a read, it's not hard to interpret. For an owner, you just need to be competent to carry our work and follow the fairly basic guidance in the reg.

[raymondh]

GSIUR mostly relates to work on gas systems by employers and employees - ie professionals getting paid for the work, need to be Gas Safe registered. It has other general stuff which is mostly common sense. Worth a read, it's not hard to interpret. For an owner, you just need to be competent to carry our work and follow the fairly basic guidance in the reg.

Hi,

Does this apply to owners who live aboard full time ?

Ray

[nicknorman]

Hi,

Does this apply to owners who live aboard full time ?

Ray

Best to read the reg but it has a specific exemption for smallish boats (ie the reg doesn't don't apply) except for boats used primarily for domestic or residential purposes. This is taken to mean that it only applies to live-aboards. I'm not quite sure what the question is but if you are a live aboard, you need to be competent to carry out the work you intend to do. You don't have to be gas safe registered to work on your own live aboard boat.

[blackrose]

GSIUR mostly relates to work on gas systems by employers and employees - ie professionals getting paid for the work, need to be Gas Safe registered. It has other general stuff which is mostly common sense. Worth a read, it's not hard to interpret. For an owner, you just need to be competent to carry our work and follow the fairly basic guidance in the reg.

Thanks, I did my own gas installation so GSIUR is probably not relevant.

Edited November 15, 2015 by blackrose

[nicknorman]

Thanks, I did my own gas installation so GSIUR is probably not relevant.

Careful, for a live aboard boat the GSIUR certainly applies and is relevant. However in terms of the practices it dictates I think (without having done a rigorous analysis) that the BSS sets a higher standard.

[raymondh]

GSIUR is relevent as below if you live aboard and "competent" is defined in the ACOP doc

 

66

The Regulations apply to certain boats not requiring a load line certificate, as

specified in regulation 2(5)©. These include:

(a)

boats (both permanently moored and those capable of navigation) which are

hired out in the course of a business, eg boats used for holiday

accommodation;

(

any boat (including those privately-owned/occupied) used solely or primarily

for domestic or residential purposes, such as houseboats and those used for

cruising but in which the owner/user lives for most of the time; and

©

boats made available to the public in the course of a business carried out from

the vessel, eg floating restaurants and public houses.

Who is Competent To Do DIY gas work?

To make it easier I thave copied and pasted the section here from the ACOP:

• 57 Anyone who works on a gas fitting…. Therefore, do-it-yourself gas engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence.
• 58 Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge, experience to carry out the job in hand safely, and ensuring the installation is left in a safe condition for use. Knowledge must be kept up-to-date with changes in the law, technology and safe working practice.
• 60 Gas work should not be undertaken except:

• a) by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence. Training that leads to assessment of competence in safe gas work must be recognised by the industry’s Standards Setting Authority. or
• in the case of a previously Registered person, they have proved competence through a Certification Scheme. or
• c) for those working at premises that fall outside the scope of the Regulations (see regulation 2(4) and associated guidance), by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence.
• 61 Training should be of a standard to enable a gas engineer to achieve competence in the safe installation, purging, commissioning, testing, servicing, maintenance, repair, disconnection, modification and dismantling, of the gas systems, fittings and appliances with which they are working. This should include an adequate knowledge of associated services, such as water and electricity, of the dangers they may give rise to and the precautions to take.

In the event of any kind of "incident" involving a gas install the authorities/insurance co's would look to the above as proof of competence

 

Ray

[nicknorman]

Who is Competent To Do DIY gas work?

To make it easier I thave copied and pasted the section here from the ACOP:

 

• 57 Anyone who works on a gas fitting…. Therefore, do-it-yourself gas engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence.
• 58 Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge, experience to carry out the job in hand safely, and ensuring the installation is left in a safe condition for use. Knowledge must be kept up-to-date with changes in the law, technology and safe working practice.
• 60 Gas work should not be undertaken except:

• a) by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence. Training that leads to assessment of competence in safe gas work must be recognised by the industry’s Standards Setting Authority. or
• in the case of a previously Registered person, they have proved competence through a Certification Scheme. or
• c) for those working at premises that fall outside the scope of the Regulations (see regulation 2(4) and associated guidance), by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence.
• 61 Training should be of a standard to enable a gas engineer to achieve competence in the safe installation, purging, commissioning, testing, servicing, maintenance, repair, disconnection, modification and dismantling, of the gas systems, fittings and appliances with which they are working. This should include an adequate knowledge of associated services, such as water and electricity, of the dangers they may give rise to and the precautions to take.

In the event of any kind of "incident" involving a gas install the authorities/insurance co's would look to the above as proof of competence

 

Ray

Don't forget that the ACOP is an industry -sponsored thing, hence the obvious bias towards protectionism. It has no legal standing in the context of the GSIUR. But even it is careful to use the word "should" not "shall" or "must" for some of its recommendations.

 

Bottom line is that if you do some gas work badly and dangerously such that there is a significant problem, you will be in the shit. Just because you hold a gas safe ticket doesn't mean you won't be in the shit. If you do the work safely and competently there won't be a significant problem. So not really a huge difference in terms of culpability, although the guy without the gas safe ticket is no doubt starting from a bit of a disadvantage. Under law, it would remain necessary for the prosecution to prove he wasn't competent, rather than for the defendant to prove he was.