Why the right hand side?

[carlt]

Would that explain why one day driving down a single track road with an overfull slurry trailor in tow, the Fordson tractor I was driving jacknifed, when I put my foot on the clutch?

 

Unbeknown to me (up untill that point ) the nearside independant brake used to come on when you depressed the clutch.

 

It was a little embarrassing as I was trying to let the estate manager pass me at the time, in his brand new yellow citreon - took a while to clear up!

That doesn't explain the exotic headgear then?

[WJM]

Anhar and his chaos theories again! Humans are capable of decision and regualtion!

 

 

 

...formalised in a Papal Edict by Pope Benefice around 1300AD

 

...became a law as part of the Highways Bill in 1835.

 

...The first official record of this was a keep right rule introduced in Paris in 1794

 

...The first reference to keep right in USA law is in a rule covering the Lancaster to Philadelphia turnpike in 1792

[Ron]

That doesn't explain the exotic headgear then?

One of my wife's favourite photos, after I crashed a tandem in the New Forest some year's ago.

C2 vertebrae was in 5 pieces.

Got quite fond of it after 4.5 months, but shaving was a problem.

Itched like hell if you got stray hairs into the jacket, which of course I could not take off untill bones were healed.

Edited March 20, 2007 by Ron

[Ron]

Anhar and his chaos theories again! Humans are capable of decision and regualtion!

...formalised in a Papal Edict by Pope Benefice around 1300AD

 

...became a law as part of the Highways Bill in 1835.

 

...The first official record of this was a keep right rule introduced in Paris in 1794

 

...The first reference to keep right in USA law is in a rule covering the Lancaster to Philadelphia turnpike in 1792

 

Are you suggesting that people are cabable of being regulated?

Or that people are capable of regulating things?

 

 

...their capacity for indecision can also be quite influential.

[anhar]

Surely if it was pure chance, half the countries would drive on the left, and half on the right. If you toss a coin enough times it is heads 50% of the time i.e. pure chance. So there must be more to it than that.

 

Nope, sorry Malcolm. A random event with a 50/50 chance of occurring will only exhibit the tendency over a very large number. The statistical math. that you quote cannot be relied upon at the small level. For example a coin toss over say 10 throws won't have to show anywhere near 5 heads though over 10,000 it will be much more likely to approximate to 5,000 heads. You have to be very careful when using this kind of math., many people do so completely wrongly by trying to apply large number tendencies to very small samples and then condemning the math. when it doesn't appear to work.

 

You know the kind of thing I mean. Say one person in ten is left handed over the whole population. That doesn't mean at all that if you pick any ten people that you must have a left hander in there. Yet some naive people will jump to the conclusion by saying "I know ten people but none are left handed so the numbers must be wrong." But what it does mean that if you picked a 100,000 then, with a degree of accuracy that can be predicted, you are likely to have around 10,000 left handers. The degree of accuracy of this sort of thing rises the greater the sample, though not in a linear relationship with it.

 

Now consider countries and driving sides. The number of countries in the world is not that big, 100 or so. Now add to that the fact that a large number of these did not make independent decisions on driving sides. For example many of the former British Empire countries or those under British influence will have adopted British practice and similarly for other empires and influential countries like the US. This brings the number to well under 100. Moreover, once right side had become the clear majority, then any new country making a decision was likely not be independent about it but to follow what had become the effective norm. So you can see many reasons why a 50/50 chance shot like this would not necessarily end up anywhere near evenly split.

 

I have known for years why the US drives on the right, as people I knew had American cars. I've no idea why we drive on the left, but assumed it was some long standing tradition.

I'm not arguing......I don't. I'm just curious to know why we drive boats on the opposite side to our cars.

 

Luckily we usually drive boats AFTER driving cars. So when we meet head on, and have a collision, we are only doing 6mph, not 60

Nobody really knows why we drive on the left - as do the Japanese. The Swedes used to until they switched over maybe thirty/forty years ago, I forget exactly. But most drive on the right and nobody knows why that is either. As you now seem to agree it is just tradition, in other words, no reason. If I was forced to think of a reason why most drive on the right, I would offer the suggestion that most people are right handed. But I remain of the opinion that it's more likely down to individual chance

 

As for boating on the right, that again was just a choice made at some past stage that had to be agreed internationally. But there is no reason for it other than it had to be one or the other.

 

However a head on collision between two narrowboats aint funny, even at 4mph each. Or even worse a narrowboat and a plastic one.

 

regards

Steve

Edited March 20, 2007 by anhar

[anhar]

Anhar and his chaos theories again! Humans are capable of decision and regualtion!

...formalised in a Papal Edict by Pope Benefice around 1300AD

 

...became a law as part of the Highways Bill in 1835.

 

...The first official record of this was a keep right rule introduced in Paris in 1794

 

...The first reference to keep right in USA law is in a rule covering the Lancaster to Philadelphia turnpike in 1792

On the contrary WJM, all you are doing is supporting my view that some countries or administrations made a decision and incidentally, long before cars existed. I never suggested that humans are incapable of decision etc. What I am suggesting is that different groups of humans come to a different decision on a point where there is no logical or natural reason to go either way, such as driving sides.

 

My criticism of the human condition, in this thread was not that humans cannot decide, it concerned the fruitless search for reasons for things happening, when sometimes there just is not any reason. But many cannot accept the essential randomness of certain events and therefore feel driven to invent phoney explanations because they find it more comforting than the rather admittedly nihilistic view that there is no reason.

 

There is no purpose, no endgame, no reason for our whole damn lives, no reason for us to exist at all, let alone a reason for something as trivial and unimportant as driving. Many, maybe most cannot accept this, it is like staring into the abyss of nothingness. So they invent a reason.

 

regards

Steve

[Guest]

Interestingly last time this discussion came up, it was stated that certain UK canals actually had a rule where the boats stayed to the left like our roads. I can't remember which ones they were though. It was changed at privatistion it seems.

[Paul H]

I don't think there was always such a hard and fast rule. Horseboats used to pass, assuming local cargoes mainly went in one direction with the loaded boat nearest the towpath and the empty boat "holding out" so that it was easier for the empty boat to pass it's tow line over the loaded one which would be lower in the water. I also remember hearing that at one time in some areas it was the convention to pass on the left (Trent and Mersey?) which must have been fun for visitors.

 

Once the standard layout of the working boat had evolved, with the stove and chimney on the left it became natural to keep to the right to avoid knocking off your chimblee on branches and bridge arches.

 

That's what I think anyway.

 

Paul H.

[Supermalc]

As for boating on the right, that again was just a choice made at some past stage that had to be agreed internationally. But there is no reason for it other than it had to be one or the other.

 

However a head on collision between two narrowboats aint funny, even at 4mph each. Or even worse a narrowboat and a plastic one.

 

regards

Steve

 

We seem to have got sidetracked again. As I've said the US drives on the right because Henry Ford put his steering wheel on the left, so as to get into the car from the nearside. Probably another more practical reason we don't know about. He ordered parts in packing crates of a certain size, so he could use them for the floorboards of the cars, so had some clever business ideas.

 

Most likely we drive on the left through some other obscure reason, probably to do with our feudal history.

 

I do know it is easier to go around a left hand bend than a right hand bend. This does not matter if you are in a right, or left hand drive car. I have driven both on the road. Have raced anticlockwise on an oval in a right hand drive car on the beach. Have raced anticlockwise on a stadium with a Stock Car (you sit in the middle) and have raced clockwise on a staduim with a right hand drive car. The domestic formula i.e. saloon cars race clockwise so you are sitting furthest away from the fence when you hit it. It is also the reason stock cars race anticlockwise as it came from the US and they have left hand drive cars.

 

However......Actually we don't often boat on the right, do we. I believe the 'rules' state to stay in the middle, and pass oncoming boats on the right hand side, with a foot to spare. This is to ensure you stay in the deeper water, and in 'the boating channel' which is more likely to be clear of obstruction. I think? I read this in the boaters handbook sent out with the licence.

 

A headon collision with a NB and a solid wall at less than 4mph isn't funny either, as I had reason to observe at close quarters while following one through the centre pound at Foxton. Even a headon collision with my boat into a wall at 2ish mph is a bit jarring.

 

This happened when I first discovered the govenor on my engine requires resetting at regular intervals. Running happily along, until you throttle back, and it stops.

 

 

 

 

My criticism of the human condition, in this thread was not that humans cannot decide, it concerned the fruitless search for reasons for things happening, when sometimes there just is not any reason. But many cannot accept the essential randomness of certain events and therefore feel driven to invent phoney explanations because they find it more comforting than the rather admittedly nihilistic view that there is no reason.

 

I agree entirely with you on this statement.

 

There is no purpose, no endgame, no reason for our whole damn lives, no reason for us to exist at all, let alone a reason for something as trivial and unimportant as driving. Many, maybe most cannot accept this, it is like staring into the abyss of nothingness. So they invent a reason.

 

But you are totally wrong with this one. We definately have a reason to exist, it is just we don't know what it is yet.

 

We did not know why some things happened apparently randomly, and just took it at face value. Until the theory of caos proved it mathamatically. Just because we do not know of some fact i.e. it is as yet undiscovered, does not mean it is not a fact, or law of this universe.

 

regards

Steve

 

I don't think there was always such a hard and fast rule. Horseboats used to pass, assuming local cargoes mainly went in one direction with the loaded boat nearest the towpath and the empty boat "holding out" so that it was easier for the empty boat to pass it's tow line over the loaded one which would be lower in the water. I also remember hearing that at one time in some areas it was the convention to pass on the left (Trent and Mersey?) which must have been fun for visitors.

 

Once the standard layout of the working boat had evolved, with the stove and chimney on the left it became natural to keep to the right to avoid knocking off your chimblee on branches and bridge arches.

 

That's what I think anyway.

 

Paul H.

 

And you could well be right.

 

Anyway, the object of my post has been fulfilled i.e. to bring it to the attention of new boaters that boats pass each other on the right when they meet........

[MartinClark]

Horseboats used to pass, assuming local cargoes mainly went in one direction with the loaded boat nearest the towpath and the empty boat "holding out" so that it was easier for the empty boat to pass it's tow line over the loaded one which would be lower in the water.

I think you'll find that it was more common for the opposite to happen - the boat furthest from the towpath would stop and let its towline fall to the bottom of the canal, with the boat on the towpath side passing over the submerged towline. In which case, there would be some point in the loaded boat taking the outside and the lighter boat passing above the line. However, from what I have heard, they usually kept to the right, regardless of whether one boat was light.

 

Once motor boats became common, the convention when a motor boat and a horse boat passed was that the horse boat would take the towpath side, whether that was on its left or right.

 

I have known for years why the US drives on the right, as people I knew had American cars.

Let me see if I understand you correctly, Malcolm - you are saying that the US drives on the right because they have American cars? Sounds reasonable to me....

[David Schweizer]

Once motor boats became common, the convention when a motor boat and a horse boat passed was that the horse boat would take the towpath side, whether that was on its left or right.

That is my understanding as well, in fact the old working boatmen never used Port and Starboard, or left and right for navigation, but Inside and Outside, Insde being the towpath side etc.

[Supermalc]

Let me see if I understand you correctly, Malcolm - you are saying that the US drives on the right because they have American cars? Sounds reasonable to me....

 

Yes, exactly. American cars were made by Henry Ford, who put the steering wheel on the left. It's that simple.

[RichardH]

I think it all stems from the London underground escalator system.

In the underground system, you are constantly reminded to ‘stand on the right’.

My guess is that when boats were first invented, they picked up the rules from the underground system

 

Were the canals not around pre-the underground?

 

This debate reminds me of just how stressed a boater became when my father in law who is 70 didn't take the correct line when the boater was a approaching on one of the widest stretches of the River Aire. I was down below knocking up lunch when I heard this other guy insulting the old fella who to be fair was only driving for the second time.

 

OK so I should have explained the rules !

Edited March 21, 2007 by RichardH

[NB Alnwick]

Getting back on topic - did the 'pass on the right' rule apply to all British inland waterways? I am sure that I have seen a reference to this not having been standardised until nationalisation.

[fender]

Getting back on topic - did the 'pass on the right' rule apply to all British inland waterways? I am sure that I have seen a reference to this not having been standardised until nationalisation.

 

I'm not sure but think I've read somewhere that one (was it the Glamorganshire in South Wales?) operated a keep left policy...

 

The unwritten 'rule' where boats pass the island at Little Venice clearly kowtows to passing on the left.

 

Another 'left hand' operation (of sorts) is at Dudley Tunnel where the trip boats go round the underground system clockwise.

[John Orentas]

Let's look at it this way, there are two aspects to the question.

 

1. It is important that everyone obeys the same rule i.e. pass on the left or the right.

2. Which side is unimportant.

 

As has been mentioned frequently there is an almost random 50/50 variation. Roads, rivers, horses, sea, motor cars. So as no natural advantage or preference can be observed it can be assumed that there isn't one, it can be further assumed that the conventions and rules owe more to pure chance than anything else.

Edited March 22, 2007 by John Orentas

[Hairy-Neil]

As for boating on the right, that again was just a choice made at some past stage that had to be agreed internationally.

 

That is just not so......I understand there was never any government involvement before nationalisation......Individual canal companies used to decided which side boats passed on, the Staffs and Worcs canal for instance did it the other way to what we accept as the norm....

 

At the end of the day it is only the passing thats relevant on our canals, wider rivers seem to have upstream and downstream sides but canals you stay in the middle except when passing another boat.......

 

 

Roads, rivers, horses, sea, motor cars.....

 

There are some countries where there seems to be a convention for pedestrians on the pavement even though I understand there is no written rule.......and the tendency is to walk on the right.....

 

...... It is also the reason stock cars race anticlockwise as it came from the US and they have left hand drive cars.

 

And I always thought the reason alternate races went opposite ways (meetings usually have saloons and the single seater cars present) was to even out the wear on the track's surface......

[anhar]

...There are some countries where there seems to be a convention for pedestrians on the pavement even though I understand there is no written rule.......and the tendency is to walk on the right.....

The general tendency is for things to be done on the right. People will tend to move to the right where there is no rule, books always have page 1 on the right, the right hand side of an open newspaper or magazine is read more than the left and hence they charge more for advertising space on the right, most screw threads are right hand and so on.

 

The underlying reason for this very likely is that the great majority of the world is right handed and thus it is more natural when having to choose a side upon which to do something, anything, for most of us to go right. Thus the conventions sprang up around what simply came naturally for most.

 

This probably explains boats passing to the right and the subsequent discussion about roads, where most of the world drives on the right, and anything else regarding choosing sides such as the items I mention above.

 

The fact that as far as roads are concerned a few countries like the UK and some of its former colonies and Japan drive on the left is just an anomaly which I don't think contravenes my reasoning. Humans are not totally logical thinkers, only partly so, and will as a result often do things that are odd. In fact the UK is well known for its eccentricities of which left side driving is only one.

 

regards

Steve

[honey ryder]

but did you know... when studying peoples behaviour when shopping... the majority go left as they enter the shop.

if you look at the way shops are laid out, they work to this instinctive behaviour and lay the shop out in such a way that they profit from our strange inexplicable ways.

 

i did read a theory why but i cant remember what it was.

 

and ive always wondered why when racing on a velodrome we always go anticlockwise. ( in all countries worldwide)

velodromes were invented by the french i think, but that doesnt explain why we go anticlockwise.

[carlt]

and ive always wondered why when racing on a velodrome we always go anticlockwise. ( in all countries worldwide)

velodromes were invented by the french i think, but that doesnt explain why we go anticlockwise.

I think you'll find that in the southern hemisphere, they go clockwise.

[honey ryder]

I think you'll find that in the southern hemisphere, they go clockwise.

 

southern hemisphere... all velodromes are raced in the same direction, its an olympic standard.

they all race on 250meter anticlockwise velodromes.

name me a country where they go clockwise?

[carlt]

southern hemisphere... all velodromes are raced in the same direction, its an olympic standard.

they all race on 250meter anticlockwise velodromes.

name me a country where they go clockwise?

Sorry, it was a 'water down the plug hole' joke. I'll try to be less subtle in future.

[honey ryder]

oh, ok, maybe im a bit slow today.

[WJM]

"I think you'll find that in the southern hemisphere, they go clockwise."

 

Yes but because they are upside down relative to the true north then they are actually going clockwise - relative to the proper world. Even Anhar will agree with that!

[Keeping Up]

On the original topic, back in the days of sailing boats they had a comprehensive set of rules which were mainly based on the direction of the wind and the ease of sailing relative to that direction; the only arbitrary rule that I know of was that a boat on Starboard tack has precedence over a boat on Port tack, and maybe that did have some relevance to the position of the Steer-board (starboard) side - the opposite of which was Larboard (abbreviation of Loading-board) that was too frequently confused when shouted over a high wind so was changed to Port side (with the same meaning)

 

As fas as I know, there were never any satisfactory rules for when two rowing vessels met (Roman Galleys etc) but then they were often trying to ram each other anyway.

 

On inland waterways when boats were towed by horses (or men) there were often pragmatic rules (the more heavily-draughted boat kept to the deep channel etc).

 

Things only got really serious when boats started to have engines so they had to decide whether to keep left or right. Some idiot London desk-based Admiralty beaurocrat made a rule that boats coming upstream in the Thames estuary should keep left while boats going downstream should keep right. It took at least 3 major sinkings before he was over-ruled.