Down the Tidal Trent ~~~ Why not do it the easier way ?

[John V]

 

Very true, John.

I think the best way to view the time and height predictions in Tide books is as a starting point to which you apply corrections for wind speed and direction, fresh (if any distance up a river) and atmospheric pressure, in order to arrive at some figures that have a bit better chance of being right. Even then you can be caught out by a tide that doesn't conform to normal patterns for no apparent reason.

Are you right on the coast, or a few miles in?

 

I'm about 4km up Benfleet Creek from the Crow stone (end of Port of London waters) The Thames itself is about 7km wide at that point (Crow Stone to London Stone) so very little, if any, effect of fresh. Strong winds can hold the water in the creek a bit but generally our tidal readings agree with those put out for Southend Pier (at least within a point) One of the biggest local effects is if and when they close the tidal barrier, if they close it very late on the tide the level on our side can go up like a lift !!!

[John V]

Tony

I am interested to know if there is/was any risk of a loaded boat in that situation breaking its back - due to the weight being supported just at the bow and stern? Many thanks

 

I am not as familiar with Yorkshire craft but somewhere I have a book with a picture of the stumpy barge "Emma" (IIRC) loaded with a cargo of Kentish rag stone with it's bow on one side of Benfleet creek and it's stern on the other, (it was bending like a bow) apparently when the tide re-floated her she carried on the only damage being she lost some caulking. Some of these older commercial boats were as tough as old boots.

When Sabina H was undergoing her major replate I came back to the boatyard one day to find her only supported by baulks under her keel just fwd of the swim and an eighty tonne jack under the stem. (and yet she is still slightly "Hogged") but it was a rather unnerving sight.

[Naughty Cal]

There are some interesting old pictures on this site of commercial boats on the Trent.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41346965@N05/3910448222/in/photostream/

 

Some showing that they didn't always get it right.

[Alway Swilby]

I'm confused. I am a tidal Trent novice having only once travelled on it on our narrowboat. That occasion was on the 6th September this year. We were heading out from Keadby bound for Torksey. The very informative, helpful and friendly lockie at Keadby advised us that the best time for us to penn down would be just before 11am at slack low water just before the flood. This is what we did and therefore got a helping shove for a good proportion of the journey.

The confusing bit is that earlier in this thread there is talk of arriving late when coming into Keadby and not being able to get over the cill. If we could get out at LW how come other NBs can't get in?

[Tony Dunkley]

I'm confused. I am a tidal Trent novice having only once travelled on it on our narrowboat. That occasion was on the 6th September this year. We were heading out from Keadby bound for Torksey. The very informative, helpful and friendly lockie at Keadby advised us that the best time for us to penn down would be just before 11am at slack low water just before the flood. This is what we did and therefore got a helping shove for a good proportion of the journey.

The confusing bit is that earlier in this thread there is talk of arriving late when coming into Keadby and not being able to get over the cill. If we could get out at LW how come other NBs can't get in?

 

There are several possible reasons for this apparent discrepancy, and one of those is that it's not the depth over the outer sill that determines the time that a boat can get in or out.

Due to the build up of mud in the river outside the lock, it's the tide height / water level in the river that determines whether or not the lock is useable at any given time.

Before considering any of the other things that would have influenced your departure time, can you give the time at which you actually left the lock, I'm assuming that 'just before' 1100 was the time you were told to be ready for penning.

[Naughty Cal]

You can just make out the bar across the entrance to the lock in this picture taken earlier this year.

 

 

You need sufficient water to get over that bar to enter or exit the lock.

 

Remember the tide comes in much quicker than it goes out on the Trent. If you wereasked to be in the lock at around or just after low water chances are it would have come up enough to get over the bar by the time you were through the lock.

[Tony Dunkley]

Yes. His argument does seem to be swinging from one side to the other one a regular basis.

 

On the hand hand he starts off showing a picture of us at anchor in shallow water and claims we should have never had less then 10-12 ft below us yet later switches tact to it isn't uncommon for boats to run aground on the Trent.

 

Starts off saying that the channel in the Trent is stable, then switches tact to say it is subject to change.

 

He seems to be getting himself a bit muddled up.

 

I was going to ignore this pointless gibberish, until I noticed that, in your customary desperation and hurry to misrepresent what others say, you had forgotten that you, quoting an earlier Post of mine in your Post #237 yesterday, had yourself actually highlighted (in red) the inconvenient truth of what really was said : ~

 

viz: ~

Tony Dunkley, on 02 Sept 2015 - 7:26 PM, said:

 

As a matter of fact, that photograph and the caption with it was sent to me by someone who is as concerned as I am that the irresponsible and potentially very dangerous so-called advice and opinions that you keep posting on this Forum may cause others to place themselves and their boats into the dangerous situations that, so far, you have been lucky enough to escape from unscathed. We are not alone in sharing this opinion, another Forum member, who had been subjected to a helping of your offensive and ill-informed opinions earlier this year, expressed similar sentiments yesterday in the 'Charges for the Lock at Goole Docks' thread.

The account you've just given of the situation shown in the photograph, and how you got into it, is nothing but fanciful nonsense, and an excellent example of how you appear to delight in posting material likely to encourage other inexperienced boaters to put themselves at risk too.

You ran out of depth and water solely because your were around 150 yards out of the deepest part of the channel, and it had nothing to do with leaving Gainsborough a little late. The photograph was taken looking upriver towards Mere Dyke. Waddington Light is between the right hand one of the two nearest pylons to the right of the poplar trees and the house and the pylon just visible on the right hand edge of the picture, and Waterton Light would be around a quarter of a mile behind the camera. If you had been in, or close to, the deepwater channel at that time, you would have had 10'-12' under you at LW, and would have made Trent End and into the Ouse with no less than about 5' under you at any time.

The point that I'm making is that nobody should attempt the last few miles down from Keadby in a cruiser or narrowboat on big tides unless they know the river sufficiently well, or have good enough charts, that they know how to use, to be sure that they can make Trent End without grounding. Don't be under any illusions, on big Springs, come the flood, any vessel grounded on the outer end of a sandbank is in a potentially very dangerous situation.

If you want to continue to hazard yourselves and your boat, relying on nothing but good fortune to see you through, then that is your choice to make, but your encouraging of others to do the same through your unwillingness to recognize and acknowledge the mistakes you've made and your dismissive attitude to the risks you've taken, is, on your part, both highly irresponsible and contemptuous of others safety.

______________________________________________

 

As one of the reasons for my starting this Topic was to increase the general awareness of pleasure boaters to the potential dangers and difficulties they may encounter in the lower Trent, I'm grateful to you for bringing this to everyone's attention again.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Alway Swilby]

 

There are several possible reasons for this apparent discrepancy, and one of those is that it's not the depth over the outer sill that determines the time that a boat can get in or out.

Due to the build up of mud in the river outside the lock, it's the tide height / water level in the river that determines whether or not the lock is useable at any given time.

Before considering any of the other things that would have influenced your departure time, can you give the time at which you actually left the lock, I'm assuming that 'just before' 1100 was the time you were told to be ready for penning.

We were told when we booked a week beforehand that it would be 10:55 am. On the day he let us through the swing bridge at 10:35. The lock was slow to empty because the electric paddles wern't working. Our log shows us passing Keadby Drainage Pumping Station at dead on 11:00. The river seemed to be flat calm (there was no wind).

[Naughty Cal]

 

I was going to ignore this pointless gibberish, until I noticed that, in your customary desperation and hurry to misrepresent what others say, you had forgotten that you, quoting an earlier Post of mine in your Post #237 yesterday, had yourself actually highlighted (in red) the inconvenient truth of what really was said : ~

 

viz: ~

Tony Dunkley, on 02 Sept 2015 - 7:26 PM, said:

 

As a matter of fact, that photograph and the caption with it was sent to me by someone who is as concerned as I am that the irresponsible and potentially very dangerous so-called advice and opinions that you keep posting on this Forum may cause others to place themselves and their boats into the dangerous situations that, so far, you have been lucky enough to escape from unscathed. We are not alone in sharing this opinion, another Forum member, who had been subjected to a helping of your offensive and ill-informed opinions earlier this year, expressed similar sentiments yesterday in the 'Charges for the Lock at Goole Docks' thread.

The account you've just given of the situation shown in the photograph, and how you got into it, is nothing but fanciful nonsense, and an excellent example of how you appear to delight in posting material likely to encourage other inexperienced boaters to put themselves at risk too.

You ran out of depth and water solely because your were around 150 yards out of the deepest part of the channel, and it had nothing to do with leaving Gainsborough a little late. The photograph was taken looking upriver towards Mere Dyke. Waddington Light is between the right hand one of the two nearest pylons to the right of the poplar trees and the house and the pylon just visible on the right hand edge of the picture, and Waterton Light would be around a quarter of a mile behind the camera. If you had been in, or close to, the deepwater channel at that time, you would have had 10'-12' under you at LW, and would have made Trent End and into the Ouse with no less than about 5' under you at any time.

The point that I'm making is that nobody should attempt the last few miles down from Keadby in a cruiser or narrowboat on big tides unless they know the river sufficiently well, or have good enough charts, that they know how to use, to be sure that they can make Trent End without grounding. Don't be under any illusions, on big Springs, come the flood, any vessel grounded on the outer end of a sandbank is in a potentially very dangerous situation.

If you want to continue to hazard yourselves and your boat, relying on nothing but good fortune to see you through, then that is your choice to make, but your encouraging of others to do the same through your unwillingness to recognize and acknowledge the mistakes you've made and your dismissive attitude to the risks you've taken, is, on your part, both highly irresponsible and contemptuous of others safety.

______________________________________________

 

As one of the reasons for my starting this Topic was to increase the general awareness of pleasure boaters to the potential dangers and difficulties they may encounter in the lower Trent, I'm grateful to you for bringing this to everyone's attention again.

Yes Tony.

 

In your mind that means something different

 

So was the commercial boat not in the deep water channel?

[Alway Swilby]

 

You can just make out the bar across the entrance to the lock in this picture taken earlier this year.

 

 

You need sufficient water to get over that bar to enter or exit the lock.

 

Remember the tide comes in much quicker than it goes out on the Trent. If you wereasked to be in the lock at around or just after low water chances are it would have come up enough to get over the bar by the time you were through the lock.

 

 

I can see the bar in your picture but I did not see such a thing on the day in question. As I said this was my first time on to the Trent so I may not have interpreted things correctly but it seemed like there was absolutely no flow on the river when we exited the lock. I would say that we didn't really notice the flood untill we were round about Owston Ferry.

 

Edited to remove double quote.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Alway Swilby

[Tony Dunkley]

Yes Tony.

 

In your mind that means something different

 

So was the commercial boat not in the deep water channel?

 

I will continue with this for a little longer, but for the sole reason that it's such a good example of why those who don't know the river below Keadby sufficiently well should carry good detailed Charts, and know how to read and follow them.

Are you able to say approximately where your boat is in relation to Waddington and Waterton Lights and the distance off from the Western and Eastern shores in this photograph ?

 

I believe you said that the two below were taken at the same time.

The upper one of the two, looking downriver towards Burton Stather Jetty (Kings Ferry Wharf on the ABP Chart) with Waterton Light about an inch from the lefthand side of the photo, may help you with the distance off from the Western shore. Pit House, also shown on the ABP Chart, is approximately one and a half inches to the left of the crane.

The lower photo, looking upriver with the drying ness astern of you, shows Mere Dyke, identifiable by the house and the poplar trees. The house is shown as Mere Dyke House on the ABP Chart.

 

 

The waters edge of the drying ness is visible astern of you in the first photo and Mere Dyke House, almost on the same bearing in the distance, is shown in this section of ABP Chart.

Note the distance from the Eastern shore of the blue line marking the edge of the drying ness at MLWS, and the soundings close to the Western shore.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Naughty Cal]

Yes.

 

I can tell you exactly where our boat is on there.

 

Doesn't change your statement though Dunkley.

 

Your argument is getting thinner with each and every post you make!

Edited September 30, 2015 by Naughty Cal

[Tony Dunkley]

Yes.

 

I can tell you exactly where our boat is on there.

 

 

Good, are you going to share this information, or are you so doubtful about it that you would prefer it to remain a secret ?

 

Perhaps you could at least say whether or not you agree that you were somewhere between Waddington and Waterton Lights.

[Naughty Cal]

I am on my phone at the moment however when I get to work tomorrow I will sketch on the plan exactly where the boat is when that series of pictures was taken.

[Tony Dunkley]

I am on my phone at the moment however when I get to work tomorrow I will sketch on the plan exactly where the boat is when that series of pictures was taken.

 

There's no need for plans or anything like that, lets just start with which two lights, or any other convenient marks, that you were between.

[Naughty Cal]

As I said in the morning I will sketch on the plan exactly where the boat is in those pictures.

[Tony Dunkley]

As I said in the morning I will sketch on the plan exactly where the boat is in those pictures.

 

I shall look forward to seeing that. Will it be in the form of a position marked on that section of ABP Chart and include the time and date ?

Edited September 30, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Guest]

I shall look forward to seeing that. Will it be in the form of a position marked on that section of ABP Chart and include the time and date ?

Stop waving it Tony, put it away and zip your fly.

 

Please.

 

You have had an answer.

[Naughty Cal]

As I said. It will be a position marked on the plan you have posted taken from the ABP website.

 

If you really want I will mark it on the 2012 plan which will be more relevant as that is when the pictures were taken.

 

How is this relevant to your change of argument by the way?

 

Or is it purely diversionary tactics to try and hide the fact you have been spouting bull again?

Stop waving it Tony, put it away and zip your fly.

 

Please.

 

You have had an answer.

He is using his usual tactics again.

 

His hope is that as usual he will get a topic locked when people realise he is spouting rubbish.

 

He does it every time.

[peterboat]

You can just make out the bar across the entrance to the lock in this picture taken earlier this year.

 

 

You need sufficient water to get over that bar to enter or exit the lock.

 

Remember the tide comes in much quicker than it goes out on the Trent. If you wereasked to be in the lock at around or just after low water chances are it would have come up enough to get over the bar by the time you were through the lock.

i did struggle to get over those sand bars if they had only dredged them life would have been so much easier

[Naughty Cal]

i did struggle to get over those sand bars if they had only dredged them life would have been so much easier

They do dredge them occasionally but they just come back.

[peterboat]

They do dredge them occasionally but they just come back.

thats that then will have to fit that turbo for the next trent outing

[Tony Dunkley]

thats that then will have to fit that turbo for the next trent outing

 

Or, you could simply time your penning at Keadby, after coming downriver, to be at or around High Water.

[Naughty Cal]

Out of intrigue as to where Dunkley thinks this is going next I have marked on the approximate location of the boat on this plan he lifted from the ABP website.

 

 

Dunkley for your information the blue line on the plan doesn't show the extent of the drying as you claim. That is indicated by the black dotted line on the plan.

 

You will note from the pictures that Dunkley is lifting from a previous post that the boat is facing in different directions in the pictures. In the first showing the full boat the stern is swinging towards the mud bank on the last of the ebb. In the second showing the blue crane the stern is swinging away from the mud bank and pointing the bow into the incoming tide.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

Or, you could simply time your penning at Keadby, after coming downriver, to be at or around High Water.

I'd still be needing the turbo to thrash into the tide for an hour .

 

The point I'm beginning to get about this thread is that it seems to be just another opportunity to have a poke at CRT since their recommendation is to travel down on the ebb. I'm quite happy that the original proposal is an alternative way to come down but both methods have their advantages and disadvantages. The CRT method's disadvantage is that there is the risk of getting to Keadby and being unable to get over the cill and into the lock. The disadvantage of the Dunkley method is that you have to either thrash into the tide for an hour, possibly heating the engine and burning twice as much fuel, or you need to anchor somewhere to wait for the flood to pass and hope no-one comes upstream on the tide and rams into you. You have already told us that the 'old style' watermen would set off on whatever state of the tide in their barges (once they were laden) so how important is it, really??