Down the Tidal Trent ~~~ Why not do it the easier way ?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

I find your reasoning somewhat difficult to understand, especially as it appears to be based on the observation of only two tides on two different days.

You seem to be indicating a preference for arriving at Stockwith, or Keadby, with the tide as slack as possible, and a preference for any downriver passage to be on the ebb all the way. Unfortunately, due to the distances from Cromwell or Torksey to both side locks, and the outer sill depths at those locks, you can't have it both ways.

Your concerns about your boat's ability to maintain maximum speed for long periods need not be too much of a problem because in the event of you being unable to make any headway at all against an incoming tide, even by making as much use as possible of all the slacks near the nesses and the slacker water to the sides on the straight racks, there is always the option to get out of the deep channel, where the flow will be swiftest, and anchor for about an hour over the period when the flood is running up at it's greatest rate.

I don't see why my reasoning is so difficult to understand since I prefer to take the easiest options and entering locks with the tide as slack as possible is the easiest option. My original quote that "...you'll invariably have to enter West Stockwith and Keadby crossing a flow on the river..." which you seemed to take issue with remains the truth since, with the best will in the world, it will be difficult to hit either of them on high water slack coming down the river even if I were able to overcome the incoming tide, you yourself admit that the tides on the Trent are "just about as variable as things can get", if there is a lot of fresh coming down you can't even guarantee what time the tide will turn. Once the tide has turned you will be crossing the flow to get into the locks. With a not particularly powerful narrowboat it will always be more difficult. With a more powerful cruiser, not really a problem.

 

I dislike the anchoring option (although accept that it IS an option) as you become a static obstruction in the river for any boats who are coming down on the tide and since we went through Gainsborough at 7.5 knots SOG with the tide I don't want to get hit with anything travelling at that speed whilst I'm anchored (you're dependent on the ability of others and I don't like to put myself in that position unnecessarily).

 

Just as an addition, I am not professing to be any expert on Trent tides as I still don't quite get how it floods for only a couple of hours but then ebbs for eight or so, but my thoughts were not based on just a couple of tides. I was at Keadby the day before departure to assess what the tides were like (just after Springs). I was at West Stockwith the day before travel to watch an Aegir come through and again to assess what the flow was like and was at Torksey the day before travel (just after neaps) again to see what the flow was like. I tend to take a lot of care since I'm one of those who would prefer to be on shore looking out thinking 'I'd be nice to be out today' rather than out on the river thinking 'I wish I was ashore '

Edited September 14, 2015 by Wanderer Vagabond

[fanshaft]

 

On the few occasions I've had to use Keadby Lock in recent years there has been quite a variety of so-called lock keepers, one who did know what he was doing and several others who really didn't have a clue.

When Dunston's yard at Thorne was in operation they had a barge that was used for routinely moving prefabricated steel sections and other gear between there and the yard at Hessle. It was 21' beam and far too long to pen in the lock so it had to go in and out on a level. I wonder how the comedians in charge at Keadby now would react if something like that turned up these days.

I used to know the width of the chamber at Keadby, but I can't recall the exact figure just now, although I do remember once penning a Sheffield boat at about 15' 6'' with two roughly 8' 6'' beam Bantam Tugs alongside and still with a bit of width to spare, so it's got to be in the region of 24' wide.

If you do complain about yesterday's performance, and I think you should, the man to speak to directly at C&RT's Leeds office is Stuart McKenzie.

 

Interesting discussion, Tony. I've boated the Trent often since 1971, mostly with commercial craft of all sizes. I always found the Sissons charts to be very good and the gravel barge skippers still used to have them open as an aide memoire even after many years boating. Some years ago I did some work with the excellent Stuart McKenzie looking at bringing aggregate to Keadby for the proposed wind farm (since built). Initially we looked at coming in through Keadby lock to a specially built wharf near the site, and as the barges to be used would have been almost all (maybe all, depending what was used) too big to pen through they would have to pass through 'on the level' and we did quite a bit of predicting what dates that would be possible so as to provide a reliable supply. Alan Oliver was bringing his larger craft (e.g. 'Hood') through on the level (and still does) so it's not a problem and he was very helpful.. We also measured the lock and allowing for a bit of wiggle room we arrived at 23.67m x 6.86m (22ft 6 in) x 2.5m as a reasonable maximum dimension. Though wider might have been OK on the level, measuring on Google Earth seems to confirms this width dimension. In the end the aggregate came in by road at least partly because the locals (or the Council) objected to the swing bridge being opened 'at all times of day and night' even though in reality it would have been only one or two barges per tide. I then suggested using Keadby wharf (PD Ports) but it was too late.

You mentioned getting a 70ft narrow boat through Thorne Lock. That's got to be the absolute limit I woiuld say, judging by Google Earth, and also that Mike Askin couldn't even remotely get Royalty class 'Victoria' though last year, and previously Mike Harrison failed with GU 'Saltaire' at 71ft 4 in.

On the question of waterway dimensions the Trust is continuing the work started by BW of reviewing data and any corrections or updates are very welcome.

By all means contact Stuart McKenzie for assistance etc but bear in mind he is not directly responsible for lock keepers or the operation of locks (he is the Ouse Harbour Master amongst other things). Mike Marshall is NE Customer Operations Manager, with Martin Walton responsible for the S Yorks Navigation. Both have very many years of waterway engineering and operational experience - Mike probably about 40 years actually - and are very approachable...

Kind regards David L

[Nightwatch]

I have not read he whole of this thread. Norty me.

 

I have a question.

 

We are presently on the Soar heading North. Have we left it a bit late to do the Trent?

 

Been raining a bit today.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

I have not read he whole of this thread. Norty me.

 

I have a question.

 

We are presently on the Soar heading North. Have we left it a bit late to do the Trent?

 

Been raining a bit today.

Have been on the Trent in Nottingham for the past week or so, the river's fine and if you keep an eye on this http://apps.environment-agency.gov.uk/river-and-sea-levels/120752.aspx it'll keep you updated on the conditions. If you are hoping to go up the Trent and come back again you'll need to be back through Newark before 19th October since they are closing Newark Town lock from then until 14th December.

[Nightwatch]

Thanks for that. Just one way is the plan.

[Naughty Cal]

I have not read he whole of this thread. Norty me.

 

I have a question.

 

We are presently on the Soar heading North. Have we left it a bit late to do the Trent?

 

Been raining a bit today.

We were on the Tidal Trent yesterday. Had a nice run.

 

Not loads of water around.

Thanks for that. Just one way is the plan.

We are heading back up the Trent in a couple of weeks for a week.

 

Might see you about.

[Nightwatch]

Not 100% on whether to do the Trent or to get North via the Trent & Mersey. Either direction are completely different plans as to where to spend winter.

 

Will keep an eye out for the White dashers!!

[Tony Dunkley]

Not 100% on whether to do the Trent or to get North via the Trent & Mersey. Either direction are completely different plans as to where to spend winter.

 

Will keep an eye out for the White dashers!!

 

Because of the lengthy stoppage planned for Newark, I would suggest North down the Trent first, unless there's anything equally lengthy to consider on however many of the three ways over the Pennines you can use, or on both North-South routes on the Western side of the country.

With the shortening days at this time of year, the later you leave a run down the Trent to Keadby, the more likely it'll be that you'll have to choose between staying put for a day or two or a bit of running in the dark, because of tide times and lock opening hours.

When were you thinking of setting off ?

You're right down at the smallest tides today and tomorrow, and right through to the end of the week you'll be able to have an easy daylight run down to Keadby, leaving Cromwell at anytime in the morning that suits you, getting there on a rising tide anytime up to HW. Even if there is a fair bit of rain over the next few days it won't be a problem, in fact, Cromwell or Torksey to Keadby would be a little easier and quicker for you with a bit of fresh on.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Naughty Cal]

Not 100% on whether to do the Trent or to get North via the Trent & Mersey. Either direction are completely different plans as to where to spend winter.

 

Will keep an eye out for the White dashers!!

No dashing about for us at the minute. We have a lame turbo

[Nightwatch]

Sorry to hear that. Does that put a strain on the engine, or do you just potter about like us slow coaches?

 

Martyn

[Naughty Cal]

Sorry to hear that. Does that put a strain on the engine, or do you just potter about like us slow coaches?

 

Martyn

Just means we are restricted to pottering about until we lift the boat out in November and send it away for refurbishment.

 

Our pottering about is still a bit quicker then yours mind

[Nightwatch]

Because of the lengthy stoppage planned for Newark, I would suggest North down the Trent first, unless there's anything equally lengthy to consider on however many of the three ways over the Pennines you can use, or on both North-South routes on the Western side of the country.

With the shortening days at this time of year, the later you leave a run down the Trent to Keadby, the more likely it'll be that you'll have to choose between staying put for a day or two or a bit of running in the dark, because of tide times and lock opening hours.

When were you thinking of setting off ?

You're right down at the smallest tides today and tomorrow, and right through to the end of the week you'll be able to have an easy daylight run down to Keadby, leaving Cromwell at anytime in the morning that suits you, getting there on a rising tide anytime up to HW. Even if there is a fair bit of rain over the next few days it won't be a problem, in fact, Cromwell or Torksey to Keadby would be a little easier and quicker for you with a bit of fresh on.

we will be atKegworth on the Soar today. Depending on mooring we may continue to Trent Lock. Also,depending on advice from on here, we may stop in Nottingham for a while and have a shufty around. Then move Northwards.

 

Makes no odds if it breaks down, but we have a 50 hp engine if we get into difficulties. As you all can guess, I am attempting to go into this with my eyes open, so to speak. On the other hand I may have nothing to be concerned about. I will take advice from Lockies as well. I need to buy myself edition 6 of Nicolsons. The only one I don't have as it happens. To go down the Trent is a recent consideration.

 

Next week, the weather looks not too wet. All new territory to use which is exciting.

 

I'll have to get my northern accent back in a week or so. Be it the right side of the Pennies I was dragged up. (Lancashire)!!!!!! Was that off topic?

 

Any news in the next week or two would be appreciated.

 

Martyn

Edited September 22, 2015 by Nightwatch

[Naughty Cal]

Newark Town Lock is closed for six weeks from the 19th October so make sure you are through there before hand or you will get stuck!

 

We would thoroughly recommend the moorings by the Sainsbury's in Nottingham, outside Castle Marina along that stretch. Well worth a couple of days at least exploring the city from there and handy for the shops.

 

The curry house at Gunthorpe is excellent but a bit pricey.

 

The Bromley at Fiskerton again has excellent food if you can get on the mooring. If not The Riverside and The Boat House at Farndon are also very good.

 

Try and leave a few days to explore Newark. It is well worth spending some time exploring the town and has numerous pubs and restaurants.

 

If you break your trip at Torkey, the steak pie at the White Swan is superb.

 

If you break your trip at West Stockwith the White Hart in the village is the better of the pubs and does very good food.

[nicknorman]

Yup can recommend Newark, a nice town with the added bonus of a Waitrose within spitting distance of the moorings, and a fine aircraft museum a couple of miles out of town.

 

Nottingham seemed not too bad considering its reputation as the gun capital of the UK, but we didn't explore much.

[Nightwatch]

Keep em coming. Thanks.

[Naughty Cal]

Yup can recommend Newark, a nice town with the added bonus of a Waitrose within spitting distance of the moorings, and a fine aircraft museum a couple of miles out of town.

 

Nottingham seemed not too bad considering its reputation as the gun capital of the UK, but we didn't explore much.

We found that the moorings opposite the kiln moorings, on the wall behind the Castle Barge were far handier for the town centre then the floating pontoons. Very quiet as well as there is no need for people to walk that way.

 

If you want a quiet evening and have provisions onboard, both Stoke Lock and Hazelford Lock are excellent moorings.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

We found that the moorings opposite the kiln moorings, on the wall behind the Castle Barge were far handier for the town centre then the floating pontoons. Very quiet as well as there is no need for people to walk that way.

 

If you want a quiet evening and have provisions onboard, both Stoke Lock and Hazelford Lock are excellent moorings.

I'd agree about the moorings at the two locks although I'm not so sure about the moorings on the wall behind Castle Barge. It may be OK for a big cruiser but from a narrow boat that is quite a big wall to get up, much prefer the floating moorings which we found to be fairly quiet, or at least they would have been if it hadn't been the Newark Blues festival at the Castle on whilst we were there!!

[Naughty Cal]

I'd agree about the moorings at the two locks although I'm not so sure about the moorings on the wall behind Castle Barge. It may be OK for a big cruiser but from a narrow boat that is quite a big wall to get up, much prefer the floating moorings which we found to be fairly quiet, or at least they would have been if it hadn't been the Newark Blues festival at the Castle on whilst we were there!!

We moored next to a ladder so getting on and off was nice and easy.

 

We have also moored on the wall opposite the castle in the park before and found that to be a good mooring.

 

A lot of the moorings on the Trent are against a wall so Newark is not unusual in that sense.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

We moored next to a ladder so getting on and off was nice and easy.

 

We have also moored on the wall opposite the castle in the park before and found that to be a good mooring.

 

A lot of the moorings on the Trent are against a wall so Newark is not unusual in that sense.

Getting up and down a ladder with shopping in hand is always going to be a bit tricky which is why I preferred the pontoon mooring. I didn't say that the mooring was unusual (any mooring on the Trent is a bonus!! ) but I prefer the easier options if I can. The mooring at Stoke Lock was either on a pontoon or on the level so that was pretty good as well. Also agree with the mooring you suggest outside of Sainsburys in Nottingham, we've been there since Saturday and my understanding is that, although there are loads of rings, except for the short area immediately outside of Sainsburys which is 48 hour, the rest seems to be 14 day.

[Naughty Cal]

Getting up and down a ladder with shopping in hand is always going to be a bit tricky which is why I preferred the pontoon mooring. I didn't say that the mooring was unusual (any mooring on the Trent is a bonus!! ) but I prefer the easier options if I can. The mooring at Stoke Lock was either on a pontoon or on the level so that was pretty good as well. Also agree with the mooring you suggest outside of Sainsburys in Nottingham, we've been there since Saturday and my understanding is that, although there are loads of rings, except for the short area immediately outside of Sainsburys which is 48 hour, the rest seems to be 14 day.

Indeed it is.

 

Cracking spot to explore the city from.

 

We are aiming to get up there next month.

 

Not been in here for far to long:

 

http://triptojerusalem.com

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Just one other suggestion to Nightwatch, I'd avoid any early morning trips down the Trent (following Tony's original suggestion at the start of this thread) between 28th of September and 1st October unless he want's a first hand experience of the Aegir . There's a three star version coming through on 29th and 30th, fascinating to watch from the shore.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Wanderer Vagabond

[Naughty Cal]

Just one other suggestion to Nightwatch, I'd avoid any early morning trips down the Trent (following Tony's original suggestion at the start of this thread) between 28th of September and 1st October unless he want's a first hand experience of the Aegir . There's a three star version coming through on 29th and 30th, fascinating to watch from the shore.

He will be fine down to Torksey. They don't make it that far up river.

[Nightwatch]

This is getting exciting!

[Tony Dunkley]

we will be atKegworth on the Soar today. Depending on mooring we may continue to Trent Lock. Also,depending on advice from on here, we may stop in Nottingham for a while and have a shufty around. Then move Northwards.

 

Makes no odds if it breaks down, but we have a 50 hp engine if we get into difficulties. As you all can guess, I am attempting to go into this with my eyes open, so to speak. On the other hand I may have nothing to be concerned about. I will take advice from Lockies as well. I need to buy myself edition 6 of Nicolsons. The only one I don't have as it happens. To go down the Trent is a recent consideration.

 

Next week, the weather looks not too wet. All new territory to use which is exciting.

 

I'll have to get my northern accent back in a week or so. Be it the right side of the Pennies I was dragged up. (Lancashire)!!!!!! Was that off topic?

 

Any news in the next week or two would be appreciated.

 

Martyn

 

As this sounds like your first time down the Trent, you would be best doing it on relatively small tides, which means avoiding the Cromwell / Torksey to Keadby journey between Friday 25 September and Sunday 4 October, during which time the biggest tide of the year is predicted on the morning of Wednesday 30 September.

As I said earlier, you're right down on the smallest tides today and tomorrow, and up to and including Friday you'll be able to have an easy daylight run down to Keadby provided that you aim to arrive there near HW. You can leave Cromwell for Torksey at anytime in the day that suits you if you want to do the journey in two stages, or if doing it in one go you can set off from Cromwell at a time that'll get you to Keadby shortly before or at around HW.

If you don't make for Keadby by Friday evening you'll either have to make the journey on biggish tides, or wait until the 4th of October when the tides will have dropped off again to a similar height as on Friday, when, because of tide times, following what now seems to be the standard advice from C&RT and other dubious sources on departure times, relative to local HW, will mean arriving and having to get into Keadby lock, for your first time, in the dark and with a strong ebb running down. Or, the alternative would be to aim for making Keadby at around HW, with little or no tide running, in late afternoon or early evening. The choice is yours.

 

Ps. As you don't know the river, you really should get some of the Boating Association Charts. I've never seen any of them, but those who have used them seem to have had few problems, at least as far as Keadby.

Pps. If your boat can manage and maintain around 4 - 5 knots continuously then Saturday and Sunday 26th and 27th would be OK to aim for Keadby at HW. Depending on what speed you actually do make, it may be getting dark as you arrive, but you will have slack, or slackish, water for getting into the lock.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Wanderer Vagabond]

This is getting exciting!

Nah, the Aegir's way too exciting for me .I do have the list of when they are due but can't find a way to upload it.