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Down the Tidal Trent ~~~ Why not do it the easier way ?


Tony Dunkley

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Decided against the Trent.

 

Seems we may have chosen the wrong time of year. Can't do with having to dash here and there, in addition of risking entering locks in the dark if we get it wrong.

 

We will go the Trent &Mersey way and take it leisurely.

 

Spend winter in the west! Thanks for all your comments.

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Decided against the Trent.

 

Seems we may have chosen the wrong time of year. Can't do with having to dash here and there, in addition of risking entering locks in the dark if we get it wrong.

 

We will go the Trent &Mersey way and take it leisurely.

 

Spend winter in the west! Thanks for all your comments.

That's a shame.

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Decided against the Trent.

 

Seems we may have chosen the wrong time of year. Can't do with having to dash here and there, in addition of risking entering locks in the dark if we get it wrong.

 

We will go the Trent &Mersey way and take it leisurely.

 

Spend winter in the west! Thanks for all your comments.

 

It's entirely up to you, of course but if you're not in a hurry, why not make your way down to Torksey, in a leisurely fashion over the next 13 days and complete the journey to Keadby on Sunday 4 October ?

HW at Keadby is predicted for 1229 BST on that day, so an 0800 start from Torksey will get you there just nicely with the river somewhere near level with the canal and little or no tide running.

There'll be no Aegres to worry about, and if it pours with rain every day from now on it will only help you and make for a quicker trip because it'll slow the rate of the incoming flood tide that you'll meet on the way. Tidal rivers are, in fact, much less of a problem after a lot of heavy rain, . . . no weirs to get washed over !

Edited by Tony Dunkley
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Yes I know, we were looking forward to it. But as I say, it would seem if we get it wrong, and the tides are not in our favour, then,to me that not enjoying boating. Plus my sister has decided to invite herself to stay for a week or so, by car. So we would have to back track to recover her car to somewhere on the Trent. It gets complicated.

 

We may go South,up the Trent next year.

 

Martyn

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Whilst we are on the subject of the Trent, before leaving Nottingham earlier today I was approached by a very nice young lady who said that she was a student at Nottingham University and they were carrying out a survey on behalf of CRT regarding usage of the Tidal Trent. Since I missed the online questionnaire (she said this was a follow up) I agreed to take part. There seems to have been a bit of a repeat of some of the questions from the online survey, particularly the one about "How would you encourage other boaters to make use of the Tidal Trent?" I'm not really sure that is a good question really because, not knowing other boaters skills or abilities I wouldn't actually encourage anyone onto the Trent, but neither would I discourage them. If they have the ability and control of their boat then anyone can go onto it but the decision is theirs to make not others to encourage.

 

That point aside the final question was "What would you like to see on the tidal Trent to make the passage better?" Now bearing in mind the answer was off the top of my head without the opportunity to give it a lot of thought, I replied,"Floating pontoons outside of West Stockwith and Keadby Locks". My thoughts being it would make it better, no matter what the state of the tide, to arrive at these destinations so you could then temporarily moor and wait for ideal conditions to get into the locks (much the same as already exists at Torksey). I'm not saying it was the perfect answer and I'm sure there are problems I haven't thought about with the suggestion (cost???) but what proposals would others suggest?(I don't think it's worth starting another thread).

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I certainly wouldn't like to see more pontoons on the river.

 

They would be on a section of river not in CRT management and on a section of river with no speed limit.

 

Whilst we slow for the locks, there are some who don't. Putting pontoons there is an accident waiting to happen.

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I certainly wouldn't like to see more pontoons on the river.

 

They would be on a section of river not in CRT management and on a section of river with no speed limit.

 

Whilst we slow for the locks, there are some who don't. Putting pontoons there is an accident waiting to happen.

I would have to say that I can see an issue with those who choose to moor to await better conditions being hit by those who choose to give it a go anyway and try to get into the lock, but I'm not sure about the argument about boats not slowing down to pass the locks, that in itself is an accident waiting to happen and I would suggest that it borders on recklessness. According to The Boating Association site they state that downriver of Gainsborough Road Bridge there is no speed limit "...except when passing West Stockwith & Keadby Locks....". They don't state what the speed limit is and, since I was busy with other things at the time I didn't notice any speed limit signs (I wasn't likely to be breaking the speed limit whatever it was).

 

My 'suggestion' was originally based on a dread of getting to Keadby Lock and being unable to get over the cill and then having to try to tie the boat up to wait for the change in tide. That is quite a high wall and I'm not sure what you'd tie to, do they have sliders like in some locks?

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I would have to say that I can see an issue with those who choose to moor to await better conditions being hit by those who choose to give it a go anyway and try to get into the lock, but I'm not sure about the argument about boats not slowing down to pass the locks, that in itself is an accident waiting to happen and I would suggest that it borders on recklessness. According to The Boating Association site they state that downriver of Gainsborough Road Bridge there is no speed limit "...except when passing West Stockwith & Keadby Locks....". They don't state what the speed limit is and, since I was busy with other things at the time I didn't notice any speed limit signs (I wasn't likely to be breaking the speed limit whatever it was).

 

My 'suggestion' was originally based on a dread of getting to Keadby Lock and being unable to get over the cill and then having to try to tie the boat up to wait for the change in tide. That is quite a high wall and I'm not sure what you'd tie to, do they have sliders like in some locks?

This is outside Keadby taken by some friends earlier this year.

 

FB_IMG_1442956228138.jpg

 

Eta: there is an advisory speed limit of 5 knots for passing West Stockwith and Keadby.

 

As I said previously not everyone chooses to follow that advice.

 

It isn't CRT waters to be meddling with.

Edited by Naughty Cal
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> > Snip < <

 

That point aside the final question was "What would you like to see on the tidal Trent to make the passage better?" Now bearing in mind the answer was off the top of my head without the opportunity to give it a lot of thought, I replied,"Floating pontoons outside of West Stockwith and Keadby Locks". My thoughts being it would make it better, no matter what the state of the tide, to arrive at these destinations so you could then temporarily moor and wait for ideal conditions to get into the locks (much the same as already exists at Torksey). I'm not saying it was the perfect answer and I'm sure there are problems I haven't thought about with the suggestion (cost???) but what proposals would others suggest?(I don't think it's worth starting another thread).

 

Leaving aside considerations of cost and the fact that the river outside both side locks is under ABP's jurisdiction, floating mooring pontoons outside either Stockwith or Keadby are neither necessary nor a very good idea, particularly at Keadby.

There's a good length of piled wall at Stockwith and a jetty belonging to the power station at Keadby that can be used in the unlikely and rare event of a boat having to wait in the river for any reason, but having said that, anything moored outside either lock at LW Springs could be chucked about in a potentially dangerous and damaging way by an Aegre ( see below).

Any pontoon at Keadby would have to be secured alongside the (presently) disused and privately owned Railway Wharf on the downriver side of the lock entrance, putting it in a prime position to be clouted, along with any boat moored on it, by ships rounding up on the ness opposite and dropping onto Keadby Wharf, which is the one adjacent to the lock on the upriver side of it.

3843446084_eebd2d76db_z.jpg?zz=1Graveller Marnham. by Philip Sizer,

Since first seeing this photograph some years ago, I've always believed that it shows the effect of an Aegre hitting a barge aground at Low Water a few hundred yards from Keadby lock, but as has been indicated in post #181 above it may have been due to a plastic motor cruiser passing by too fast.
Whichever of these two things it in fact was, I have to agree that it could be described as an "accident waiting to happen".
Edited by Tony Dunkley
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I would have to say that I can see an issue with those who choose to moor to await better conditions being hit by those who choose to give it a go anyway and try to get into the lock, but I'm not sure about the argument about boats not slowing down to pass the locks, that in itself is an accident waiting to happen and I would suggest that it borders on recklessness. According to The Boating Association site they state that downriver of Gainsborough Road Bridge there is no speed limit "...except when passing West Stockwith & Keadby Locks....". They don't state what the speed limit is and, since I was busy with other things at the time I didn't notice any speed limit signs (I wasn't likely to be breaking the speed limit whatever it was).

 

My 'suggestion' was originally based on a dread of getting to Keadby Lock and being unable to get over the cill and then having to try to tie the boat up to wait for the change in tide. That is quite a high wall and I'm not sure what you'd tie to, do they have sliders like in some locks?

 

It appears from various video clips on this Forum that you're right in thinking that a great many of the boats entering either Stockwith or Keadby locks from the river will go for the high speed " aim and hope" technique, and I agree that if pontoons were put in place outside these locks then there would be a miniscule possibility of damage to moored boats occurring. However, taken together with the probability of a serious accident resulting from a piece of plastic going past at more than 5 knots, I don't think anyone need lose any sleep over it.

Moving on to your concerns about not being able to get into Keadby lock. This is, in fact, one of the reasons why I started this Topic, and a very real possibility for boats following the standard C&RT / Pleasure boat advice on timing the journey downriver, even more so now if the bank of sand and mud in the lock tail has been allowed to build up to the extent shown in the photograph from post #183. The outer sill of the lock is several feet below that sand and mud, and it's the fact that C&RT have allowed it to build up to that extent that will add to the chances of boats having to wait in the river for the next tide, because it severely shortens the length of time after HW that the lock is useable.

There certainly aren't 'sliders' on the high walls outside the lock, and there never will be any. These are privately owned wharves intended for use by ships, and the upriver one is in use except for short periods of a few days either side of Neaps when there isn't enough depth in the Trent for them to get up to Keadby.

The considerations above and in my post #184 are in some part the reason for my advice to pleasure craft to aim to arrive at Keadby at or around HW, as in the title of the Topic, and not several hours afterwards as will always result from following the C&RT / Pleasure craft timing advice.

 

 

FB_IMG_1442956228138.jpg

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A topic on which both Tony and Naughty Cal agree!

 

(Checks for any other signs of impending apocalypse)

 

Not really, I think you should read the last few posts again.

Although we are both saying that floating pontoons at Stockwith and Keadby would not be a good idea, my concerns are founded in the potential consequences of Aegres and the proximity of ships, whereas NC's concerns are fixated on the apparently dire consequences of some plastic that may pass by travelling in excess of 5 knots.

Edited by Tony Dunkley
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It appears from various video clips on this Forum that you're right in thinking that a great many of the boats entering either Stockwith or Keadby locks from the river will go for the high speed " aim and hope" technique, and I agree that if pontoons were put in place outside these locks then there would be a miniscule possibility of damage to moored boats occurring. However, taken together with the probability of a serious accident resulting from a piece of plastic going past at more than 5 knots, I don't think anyone need lose any sleep over it.

 

 

 

I would agree with you that the high speed "aim and hope" approach - known as the torpedo approach on the Tidal Thames - has some downsides....

 

In my experience in manoeuvring against the tide/current, the trick is to keep the bows as close to the current as long as possible, and only turning at the last minute. This does require holding your nerve a bit - as you can see here my son (sitting on the bow) bottled out before I did ... (Spring tide).

 

Edited by Scholar Gypsy
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I love Stockwith with a bit of flow.

 

Here we are waiting for the lock

 

 

And entering

 

Therein lies the difference between a cruiser and a narrowboat. Entering Stockwith in a narrowboat 'with a bit of flow' isn't really a whole lot of fun. As SG says above it does require a certain amount of nerve since, given the power/weight ratio of a narrowboat it will always be difficult to get sufficient thrust to overcome the flow and remain in full control. In a cruiser it's a doddle since you have the power to overcome pretty much any flow and can effectively ferry glide across, I've done this on the tide on the River Tamar in Devon and with a boat with sufficient power anyone can do it.

 

I'm not interested in either increasing my engine size nor propeller size since for the majority of my use around the system I'm using 1 litre per hour which I'm more than happy with, so I have to make the best of it on the occasions that I do use Rivers (Thames,Kennet,Avon,Trent and currently a rather gentle Soar). Riding up on the tide or down on the current is fine in a narrow boat it is when you have to either push against the tide/current or cut across it that it becomes problematic with overheating possibilities and not even thinking about the possibility of losing drive altogether by getting something around the prop (trying to control an unpowered narrow boat travelling backwards on the tide doesn't really bear thinking aboutunsure.png )

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(trying to control an unpowered narrow boat travelling backwards on the tide doesn't really bear thinking aboutunsure.png )

Oh it does! Thinking how to avoid it is good, hence Tony's comments about twin fuel filters being helpful.

 

An appropriate anchor that you have tested in a realistic manner. A decent VHF radio and knowing the channels to use before 16 is needed. Flares might be a touch excessive for the lower Trent, but are a good idea when you hit the Number.

 

It is all about risk management.

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Oh it does! Thinking how to avoid it is good, hence Tony's comments about twin fuel filters being helpful.

 

An appropriate anchor that you have tested in a realistic manner. A decent VHF radio and knowing the channels to use before 16 is needed. Flares might be a touch excessive for the lower Trent, but are a good idea when you hit the Number.

 

It is all about risk management.

Yup, I've thought about how to avoid it, known as 'don't go there'rolleyes.gif

 

The twin filters is a bit of an irrelevance when what is stopping you it is a bomber jacket around your prop. The anchor (yes, I've got one of those) is very useful in an emergency such as this but you then have to bear in mind that you are now a stationary obstruction in the navigable channel to anyone coming down on the current or up on the tide and, I don't know about you, but I don't want to get hit by anything travelling at 7.5 knots coming through Gainsborough (the speed we went through there).

Also have the VHF radio and the authority to use it but then you are starting to rely on others for help,I'd rather not be in the position of asking for help in the first place. The point I was making really is that narrow boats are OK for ideal conditions on the river, if one wants to try anything more than that (such as pushing against the tide or current) then you really need the appropriate tools (such as a more powerful cruiser), 'cos a narrow boat doesn't really cut it.

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Why more pontoons are not a good idea below Gainsborough

 

I'd watched that video previously and I believe there is another showing a narrow boat at the same location, what surprised me was how well everything actually stood up to it. Nothing was sunk although I expect the crockery took a pounding. It does emphasises how bad an idea it is to be on the river if an Aegir is due (as does Tony's photo). My idea of a nightmare to get to Keadby Lock on a Spring low tide, be unable to cross the cill to get off the river and know that on the change of tide an Aegir was coming down. At least if there was a pontoon and ramp to get off I could tie off the boat to the pontoon (which is floating), get myself and crew off the boat and hope that the boat survives, rather than having to worry if my crew and I would surviveunsure.png

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If You lose drive completely, you can get a certain amount of control by "tripping" your anchor or by dragging a mudweight. Obviously you have to go with the tide but you can achieve a surprising amount of steerage this way and at the very least get to a safe spot where you can anchor properly.

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Why more pontoons are not a good idea below Gainsborough

 

 

As I said in Post #187 some of my concerns over installing floating pontoons at Stockwith and Keadby are founded in the potential consequences of the effect of Aegres.

Boats being bounced around a bit is really of no matter, the real issue is the potential for injury, or worse, to people either on/in the boats or on the pontoon itself.

A great many of those using the pontoon that has, foolishly, been installed at Gainsborough, probably have no idea what may be heading their way if they happen to moor there at around the time of the new or full moon. Not only is anyone inside the boat at risk of injury, but someone standing on the pontoon at the time could end up being mangled and/or drowned if they fell into the gap between the piled wall and the pontoon.

 

Nb. Just to emphasize how serious this issue could be, that wasn't really much of an Aegre, they can come an awful lot bigger than that.

Edited by Tony Dunkley
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As I said in Post #187 some of my concerns over installing floating pontoons at Stockwith and Keadby are founded in the potential consequences of the effect of Aegres.

Boats being bounced around a bit is really of no matter, the real issue is the potential for injury, or worse, to people either on/in the boats or on the pontoon itself.

A great many of those using the pontoon that has, foolishly, been installed at Gainsborough, probably have no idea what may be heading their way if they happen to moor there at around the time of the new or full moon. Not only is anyone inside the boat at risk of injury, but someone standing on the pontoon at the time could end up being mangled and/or drowned if they fell into the gap between the piled wall and the pontoon.

 

Nb. Just to emphasize how serious this issue could be, that wasn't really much of an Aegre, they can come an awful lot bigger than that.

I tend to agree with you concerning the pontoon at Gainsborough, I can't really think of any circumstances in a narrow boat that I'd ever wish to use it by choice. In a narrow boat on the river all I want to do is enjoy the scenery and get off the river as soon as possible. I could perhaps see a use for it if a boat breaks down between Torksey and West Stockwith as somewhere it could be towed to as an emergency, temporary arrangement (assuming there was no longer time to get to West Stockwith and get over the cill).

 

To look at my 'nightmare' above however, which would I prefer (assuming that I was dumb enough to be on the River when Aegirs are coming up)? To have failed to get to Keadby in time to cross the cill and spend the time waiting for the tide to turn (and the impending Aegir) moored to the wharf with no prospect of getting anyone off the boat (unless I call for emergency assistance) or moored to a floating pontoon from which I can get everyone ashore and then watch the possible sinking from safety?

 

In fairness no-one is proposing to instal pontoons, it was just the off the cuff reply I gave to the young lady who interviewed me concerning what I thought would make the trip better. The part of the questionnaire I didn't really agree with was the question about how I would encourage more boaters to use the Trent. I would neither encourage nor discourage merely tell them to be properly prepared but the decision whether or not to go is entirely theirs. I would encourage cruisers to use the Trent since they don't have anything like the same issues that a narrow boat has, having watched one go out of West Stockwith into the incoming (just after) Spring tide and head off towards Keadby and Trent Falls. With enough engine power and a competent helm there is no problem with that. My narrow boat wouldn't have even been able to turn across the tide, never mind head off into it!

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i have been moored at gainsborough twice in my widebeam when hit by aegris the first time i ripped the mooring eye out of the pontoon the second i ended up flat on my face you know its coming as their is a fast hand clapping noise as it approaches bot where about 2 feet high so nothing huge really

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