Gas Ignition On Electrolux Three Way Fridge

[Starcoaster]

My threeway fridge, an ancient one of these:

 

Won't work on the gas, or more to the point, the ignition button isn't working, so in order to find out if it will work if I can get it lit, is there a place/way I can ignite the pilot manually?

The problem may have occurred due to water getting all over the top of the workings some time back- it will still work on 240 and 12v.

 

Thanks!

[MtB]

My threeway fridge, an ancient one of these:

 

Won't work on the gas, or more to the point, the ignition button isn't working, so in order to find out if it will work if I can get it lit, is there a place/way I can ignite the pilot manually?

The problem may have occurred due to water getting all over the top of the workings some time back- it will still work on 240 and 12v.

 

Thanks!

 

 

It's at the back, close to floor level on the left hand side (looking from the front).

 

Will probably need two peeps to light it. Or it 'might' be refusing to light due to low battery voltage. Try again in the morning once the solar has given them a charge and before turning the lappy on!

And presumably you haven't run out of gas...

 

 

***ducks***

[alan_fincher]

If there is enough gas hose that it can be pulled forward from whatever cubby hole it is in, then it is usually t possible to manually light them.

 

Te burner sits at the bottom of the long vertical insulated tube on the back, but on types I have been into, usually has a folded metal shield enclosing it. It normally involves removing (typically) 2 self tapping screws to get past that shield.

 

However many are installed on a short enough flexible hose, that you can't actually get at the back, whilst leaving it connected.

 

Or it 'might' be refusing to light due to low battery voltage.

 

Looks to me like it is probably ignited by a piezo electric "clicker", so batteries probably don't enter in to it?

[MtB]

 

Looks to me like it is probably ignited by a piezo electric "clicker", so batteries probably don't enter in to it?

 

 

Coasty's fridge has electronic ignition and flame monitoring, weirdly for one of that age.

(Unless she has changed it since I last fixed it!)

[Starcoaster]

No it's the same one, do you remember it was temperamental even then?

I don't fancy trying to get to a flame at the bottom at the back!

It can't be the batteries being low as I have tried it on the shoreline too, and I have gas as the hob will light!

[MtB]

Time to buy another one I reckon.

[Starcoaster]

Well maybe cos they seem to come up often and cheap second hand, but in the interim? I want my fridge on when I'm not on the mooring, and I want to not be on the mooring later on this week!

[MtB]

I want, I want!!

[Starcoaster]

I DO WANT!

[ditchcrawler]

Lots of "I Want" threads running at the moment

[Starcoaster]

Meh.

[Taslim]

Meh.

If it's any consolation. You'r right about them coming up second hand. My one fell apart and I easy got a good replacement (With posh trim!) for 15 Quid. No mess piezo ignition too.

 

Mean time. A couple of bags of ice from the supermarket & cool box?

[richardf]

I've just bought one on ebay for about £80 - runs perfectly. I looked at the option of repairing my old fridge, but some bits were not available and some seemed to attract a premium price. Ebay or caravan breakers......

[Alan Saunders]

Coasty's fridge has electronic ignition and flame monitoring, weirdly for one of that age.

(Unless she has changed it since I last fixed it!)

But the fridge in the image appears to have piezo ignition.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'flame monitoring'. My 1987 RM2200 has electronic (12V powered) ignition. When there is no flame the igniter sparks at ~1 second intervals and flashes the red neon indicator in the switch (I can also hear it clicking). There is no feedback from the flame. The flame ionises the air gap and the voltage is then insufficient to jump the gap.

 

My igniter stopped working. I accidentally created an additional spark gap by inserting the tiny HV spade connector alongside the terminal. Et voila, it sparks but, obviously, does not stop sparking when there is a flame. Alde suggest introducing such a gap as a diagnostic aid.

 

The electronic HV supply is on the top of my fridge and any damp may affect the HV connection but the unit is encapsulated. Possibly, a buildup of soot is shorting out the spark gap.

 

Alan

Edited June 23, 2015 by Alan Saunders

[MtB]

But the fridge in the image appears to have piezo ignition.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'flame monitoring'. My 1987 RM2200 has electronic (12V powered) ignition. When there is no flame the igniter sparks at ~1 second intervals and flashes the red neon indicator in the switch (I can also hear it clicking). There is no feedback from the flame. The flame ionises the air gap and the voltage is then insufficient to jump the gap.

 

My igniter stopped working. I accidentally created an additional spark gap by inserting the tiny HV spade connector alongside the terminal. Et voila, it sparks but, obviously, does not stop sparking when there is a flame. Alde suggest introducing such a gap as a diagnostic aid.

 

The electronic HV supply is on the top of my fridge and any damp may affect the HV connection but the unit is encapsulated. Possibly, a buildup of soot is shorting out the spark gap.

 

Alan

 

 

It's not Coasty's fridge in the picture!

 

I can't actually remember much about the flame supervision other than as you describe, an ignition unit sparks automatically when the flame is not detected. There is no piezoelectric sparking device.

[nicknorman]

But the fridge in the image appears to have piezo ignition.

 

The flame ionises the air gap and the voltage is then insufficient to jump the gap.

 

Alan

No these things normally have an "ignition coil" a bit like a car, with an electronic circuit to pulse current through the coil's primary thus generating high voltage in the secondary. Piezo ignition is when you have a big springloaded button you press to compress the spring which is then released at the bottom of travel, a hammer whacks the piezo crystal and thus a spark is generated. All very mechanical.

 

And no, ionised air/flame is conductive so it is not that there is insufficient voltage to get a spark, rather the "spark" (ionised air) is already there big time ie the flame. Very little voltage is required to pass a current through the flame -the spark generator is effectively shorted out. I dare say the system continuously triggers the spark and notices that the peak voltage is high (flame not present) or low (flame present). Either that or there is another bit of circuitry that puts a low voltage across the gap and checks for current flow.

[MtB]

And no, ionised air/flame is conductive so it is not that there is insufficient voltage to get a spark, rather the "spark" (ionised air) is already there big time ie the flame. Very little voltage is required to pass a current through the flame -the spark generator is effectively shorted out. I dare say the system continuously triggers the spark and notices that the peak voltage is high (flame not present) or low (flame present). Either that or there is another bit of circuitry that puts a low voltage across the gap and checks for current flow.

 

 

It's a bit more complicated than that. An AC voltage is applied and due to a difference in the physical size of the electrode in relation to the burner base, there is an offset in the curent in each half of the AC current cycle. Can't remember the details of why, but rectifying the AC results in the residual DC current being stripped out and detected, and the gas kept ON.

 

It's done like this to make it fail-safe. Plain DC current detection as you describe can be fooled by in a number of ways, soot on the burner in particular, leaving the gas ON when the flame has actually extinguished.

 

Have a google for 'flame rectification'...

Edited June 23, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman

[nicknorman]

It's a bit more complicated than that. An AC voltage is applied and due to a difference in the physical size of the electrode in relation to the burner base, there is an offset in the curent in each half of the AC current cycle. Can't remember the details of why, but rectifying the AC results in the residual DC current being stripped out and detected, and the gas kept ON.

 

It's done like this to make it fail-safe. Plain DC current detection as you describe can be fooled by in a number of ways, soot on the burner in particular, leaving the gas ON when the flame has actually extinguished.

 

Have a google for 'flame rectification'...

Yes now you come to mention it, I think we've had this discussion before. I should have stopped at the piezo vs coil bit and that flames are conductive!

[alan_fincher]

 

 

It's not Coasty's fridge in the picture!

 

But she did say hers is an "ancient one of these".

 

Clearly from what you are saying, it isn't actually one of those.

 

I think those who have assumed she has piezo ignition were justified in thinking that, particularly as i have hardly ever seen one in a boat that isn't.

[MtB]

Yes now you come to mention it, I think we've had this discussion before. I should have stopped at the piezo vs coil bit and that flames are conductive!

 

 

It's fascinating, gas, innit!

 

I read "Flight Without Formulae" once, by that bloke from the Muppets. AC Kermode IIRC. Cracking read. Almost wish I'd been a pilot.

 

Reminds me of that old chestnut...

 

Bloke at party to hot blonde: "I'm a pilot you know..."

 

Hot Blonde: "Do you work for British Airways?"

 

Bloke: "No, Calor Gas"

 

 

 

I'll get my coat...

[Starcoaster]

I have another idea on this that I could do with a reality check:

 

So I want to run the fridge on gas so that it works off shoreline. But how about if I wired an inverter into the 12v power feed to the fridge instead, would that let me plug the 240x plug into the inverter and get the fridge powered off shoreline that way?

 

Questions:

1. Is this at all feasible.

2. How much power is the fridge likely to draw per day if so.

3. How big of an inverter would I need, and would an MSW one be ok?

 

If it helps, the fridge is right next to the battery bank, on the other side of the cabin wall.

[bizzard]

I have another idea on this that I could do with a reality check:

 

So I want to run the fridge on gas so that it works off shoreline. But how about if I wired an inverter into the 12v power feed to the fridge instead, would that let me plug the 240x plug into the inverter and get the fridge powered off shoreline that way?

 

Questions:

1. Is this at all feasible.

2. How much power is the fridge likely to draw per day if so.

3. How big of an inverter would I need, and would an MSW one be ok?

 

If it helps, the fridge is right next to the battery bank, on the other side of the cabin wall.

Both the direct 12v from the battery and 240 mains from the inverter will draw about 8 amps or more from your battery on that fridge and will have your batteries flat in no time. The direct 12v supply is really only meant to be used whilst the engine is running.

[alan_fincher]

^^^^^^ THIS.

 

Don't even think of it - a "three way" absorption type fridge probably uses at least 4 times as much power as a modern 12 volt compressor fridge.

 

Only for those connected to a land-line really.

[Starcoaster]

Arr, ok. I thought there had to be a probable catch! Cheers all.

[Starcoaster]

Right, I had another thought.

I am off shoreline at the mo, so my fridge is essentially no use to me as is.

I know that the above plan is not a feasible long term solution now, but, I have 360w of solar on the boat powering my very low usage, so I have a massive excess of power during the day when the sun is out.

Can I plug the 240v plug into my little inverter (plugged into my 12v socket, usually powers my laptop) to run the fridge for a few hours per day? I am thinking run it on the highest chill setting and fill it with tins so it retains the cold overnight, before doing it again.

Will this work, and will my little inverter be ok for it, or would I need a huge one or PSW one?